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  1. #1
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Holey smokes do some of you guys pour a lot of cash into this hobby.

    After reading through the power cord thread, I see that some of you spend more on power cables than I spent on all 3 of my systems put together. Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases.
    What must your systems sound like? Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on? Can they really be 10 or 20 times better? I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound.
    I have had a chance to hear a few hi-fi systems. I got to hear the Maggie 3.6's a few years back, as well as most of the Totem line. These were driven by Moon products with wires that looked like ribbon cables. They were incredible, but still don't match the cash I see spent around here. I've heard a few other systems up to about the $10k range, but nothing over that. What does a $100k system sound like?
    Please tell me, how good can it get?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    No kidding, eh?

    GM,

    l, (like you apparently), might never get to hear, much less own, a $100K system. But you must surely know the answer: no, the $100K system is emphatically not 20x better than the $5K system. The rule of diminishing returns applies to hifi as to most everything else.

    Nevertheless there are people with the means to spend 20x as much for a 10% (or whatever) improvement in sound quality. Does this prove poor judgement on their part? Certainly not: preceived value is in the mind of the buyer, and as long has his or her family isn't going hungry, we have no basis for criticism. Envy is another matter.

  3. #3
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    I can understand if someone has mega bucks and 100k on a system doesn't even dent their pocketbook. But how good must these systems sound? Can I hear one before I die?

    Please?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  4. #4
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    If you ask me...

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    What does a $100k system sound like?
    Please tell me, how good can it get?
    ...it sounds like you need your head examined...No, not you GM, but anyone who would spend that kinda' money IMO...

    Chances are it will allow you to play louder...but since I cruise around 85dB max, it's just overkill...

    It may have greater low-end extension, but I can rattle the walls with some pure, undistorted Bach pedal notes or ELP shenanigans and my system cost approx $5k including the two tape decks, EQs and ambience recovery hardware...

    And again all the soundstage and depth? If it ain't in the source, $200K ain't gonna' put it there...in fact if it does, it could actually be considered a form of distortion...

    Said it before and I'll say it again, for <$1000, a 2ch system can be put together that will provide probably 95% or so of what can be extracted from most source material...ten X or one hundred X that expense won't give you 10X or 100X "better" sound...It may be hand-made, look superiffic and have high-end cachet, but that's about it...

    jimHJJ(...'n' that's the troof...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

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  5. #5
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    I agree....

    .....with Jim (how is it going RL) on the last point. For about $1000 one can have a decent sounding system. As I type this I sit in my study and listen to a Teac/Wharfedale set up. A smidgen over 1K.
    And it sounds just fine.
    I think the main difference when moving up to better equipment is best explained like this.
    With a 1K system you look through slightly dirty windows on a cloudy day, with a high end set up the windows are clean and plenty of B.O.T..
    A 100k system is certainly not 100 x better than a 1K system or is it...? The answer I am sure is answered by the man who puts his money where his mouth is. To him it surely is.
    And of course pride of ownership comes into it. Also the ability to listen plays a large part.

    To me all HiFi is over priced. There I said it.

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  6. #6
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    ...
    To me all HiFi is over priced. There I said it.

    Peace

    Seems like you have taken that first step to recovery.

    Hello, my name is Michael, and I'm addicted to music.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  7. #7
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    No, No, No.....

    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Seems like you have taken that first step to recovery.

    Hello, my name is Michael, and I'm addicted to music.

    ....I am a lost cause, beyond any help.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  8. #8
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Whenever I listen to any of my systems, I'm still overwhelmed by how good they sound. They seem incredible to me. They produce emotional responses on a daily bases.
    This is all that matters. As long as the listener is happy, the product is worth the price paid.

    What must your systems sound like?
    Does it matter?
    Will I burst into tears the moment they are turned on?
    Only if I've got Old Yeller playing on the HT.
    Can they really be 10 or 20 times better?
    Depends on your point of view and how you prioritize things.
    I just can't imagine how good a system like that would sound.
    You don't have to imagine, just go visit some hifi store in your town or when you're on vacation.
    What does a $100k system sound like?
    Just like a $1k system...only moreso.
    Please tell me, how good can it get?
    You could blow an entire first round pick's signing bonus, meticulously match each piece with complete synergy, build a dedicated and tuned listening room...












    ...and it still wouldn't consistently replicate a live event.

  9. #9
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    ....I am a lost cause, beyond any help.
    I'm slipping fast. I'll be with you soon enough.

    Like to get "these" speakers. $2k
    With "that" finish. $500 more
    And the center and surrounds will need to match. $2k
    But then I'll need "those" amps. $2k + $3k.
    And why have a receiver as a pre-amp. $3k
    And what about wires ??
    and ?
    and?
    ?
    ?
    ?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  10. #10
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    What RL said X 2.

    Yeah, most of the megabucks systems I've heard have been pretty darn good - but only incrementally better than systems that cost a fraction.

    As with anything in life, I love the fact there are companies that cater to the indulgers out there. I only object when people think just because they spend more money they are more knowledgeable or more of an authority on the subject. I have respect for the people who manage to spend less, yet achieve better sound.

    At some point this industry divided itself into two kinds of people:
    1) Those who derive a great amount of satisfaction from their systems and are virtually taken to the performance when listening, and;
    2) Those who have become gear-heads, who draw as much satisfaction in seeking, comparing, purchasing, and showing their pieces of equipment as the guy in #1 does listening to music on his.

    A former co-worker and friend of mine made a good point to me a few years ago. He's got some wicked stereo gear including Conrad Johnson, Krell, Thiel etc that he accumulated over 2 decades...(lost it all in a house fire once and had to repurchase, but that's a different story)...I remarked how his system cost 4 or 5 times my stereo's price at the time - then he responded with a neat trick. Add up the cost of all your CD's, LP's (DVD's for HT I guess) Then divide that by your system cost. If the number is greater than 1, you're probably okay.
    If the number is less than 1, you might need to re-think your priorities.

    The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
    Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular O'Shag's Avatar
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    I agree with Feanor.

    Bernd, your not the only lost cause.

    Differences can be profound. I've heard some high-performance / expensive components, and there's no doubt many can deliver a more accurate and meaningful rendering of the recording. The $145,000 Acapella Triolon Excaliburs driven by einstein electronics is one of my fantasy systems. The MBL radiostrahler driven by MBL electronics could be another. Thats not to say audio nirvana can't be experienced for a lot less, because it can. Having said that, I don't think you can get 90% of the performance of the high-end systems for 5k. 15k might do, with some carefully chosen components on the used market with a decent pre-amp, amp, speakers, source, interconnects/speaker cables/ and power conditioning (maybe including powercords). If Home Theatre is included, then your looking at dropping a lot more cash. Its when it comes to tweaks though, including aftermarket powercords, that things can get a little looney tunes, especially from the perspective of 'she who must be obeyed' - just kidding; my missus is a gem.
    Last edited by O'Shag; 07-03-2007 at 12:19 PM.

  12. #12
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    This really gets....

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
    Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.
    .....my back up. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Why can't somebody with a small music collection enjoy it on a multi k system? Why must the cost of the software always outstrip the hardware to qualify for membership to the true music lovers club? And what if you only listen to live broadcasts on radio?

    Peace

    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  13. #13
    Suspended topspeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kex
    Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.
    Best question I've seen on AR.

    Ever.

  14. #14
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Two kinds of people

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    ...

    At some point this industry divided itself into two kinds of people:
    1) Those who derive a great amount of satisfaction from their systems and are virtually taken to the performance when listening, and;
    2) Those who have become gear-heads, who draw as much satisfaction in seeking, comparing, purchasing, and showing their pieces of equipment as the guy in #1 does listening to music on his.

    .... Add up the cost of all your CD's, LP's (DVD's for HT I guess) Then divide that by your system cost. If the number is greater than 1, you're probably okay.
    If the number is less than 1, you might need to re-think your priorities.

    The magic ratio number isn't important, but the concept is.
    Does your system cost more than the sum of all the media you purchased it to play? (good poll question?). This is a good indicator of what you derive more satisfaction out of.
    To begin with two kinds are really extremes with most of us being somewhere in between. Yes, and I further postulate that people who hang around here have a high Type 2 ratio, because there are plenty of music-only forums so pure Type 1's don't have to spend time here.

    As for music/system ratio, I recall an AA inmates saying he owned about 15,000 CDs and a like number of LPs. At a modest $10 a software copy that would "justify" a $300,000 system. (Mind you, as I recall, his system was in the $50+K range anyway.) For my part I'm around 1/1 for stereo, but only because 60% of my collection is less than 3 years old at this moment -- I had a 15 year hiatus from serious listening and collecting. For my HT system, the ratio favors the software by 2 or 3 to 1.

  15. #15
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Looks? Yes, looks make up a huge part of it. I often show friends pics of the speakers I want. They almost always ask if these $2500 speakers will sound 4 times better than my current $600 pair. I usually say, look at these things. It would cost $2k for furniture or decorations that look this good. They agree. So as long as they don't sound any worse than the set I have now, I'll be happy.
    But then, do I want to drive $2k speakers with an HT receiver? And it all starts to snowball.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  16. #16
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Kex, I do agree with the point you are making. Why own a $100k system if you aren't going to use it? But I don't agree that I have to own the CD's or LP's. I spend many hours watching HD TV in surround sound as well as many more listening to music from the TV channels.
    But your point is a valid one indeed.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  17. #17
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    This is all that matters. As long as the listener is happy, the product is worth the price paid.

    Does it matter?
    But what if I could have better?

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Only if I've got Old Yeller playing on the HT.
    Dam movie! sniff sniff...

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Depends on your point of view and how you prioritize things.
    Let's not forget budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    You don't have to imagine, just go visit some hifi store in your town or when you're on vacation.
    That is fun. But then I regret it for months. I get all pumped up for something I can't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    Just like a $1k system...only moreso.
    How much moreso? Will I like it more?

    Quote Originally Posted by topspeed
    You could blow an entire first round pick's signing bonus, meticulously match each piece with complete synergy, build a dedicated and tuned listening room...












    ...and it still wouldn't consistently replicate a live event.
    But would it make me smile bigger than I already do?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  18. #18
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael



    But would it make me smile bigger than I already do?

    Yes. Absolutely. Without fail.
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  19. #19
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    To be quite...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    .....my back up. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Why can't somebody with a small music collection enjoy it on a multi k system? Why must the cost of the software always outstrip the hardware to qualify for membership to the true music lovers club?

    Peace

    ...honest, the ratio you speak of usually indicates the program material is chosen more for it's technical aspects rather than that of performance /material considerations in most cases...Direct-to-disc recordings being the most notorious in that regard...Great to show your gear at it's best but...pfffttt...

    I have some old 78s that I listen to more for their content than for tech...tech...technical excellence. Much of the music I play nowadays is chosen from a smaller group of recently acquired, carefully chosen digital recordings with less of my analog collection in rotation...but given the fact that many are digitally remastered reissues of mono program material, it's got more to do with the content (and my changing musical tastes) than any gear-centric reasons.

    So I understand your POV and the fact that there are exceptions to every "rule"...So, okay...I have approx. 50 CDs of which I play maybe 30 with regularity...an unknown (at least at this moment) number of vinyl/lacquer disks of which probably thirty or so see the light of day and likewise with tapes...All adds up to maybe 100 recordings at say $10 a pop (more-or-less)...so lessee, carry the one...at's about a grand...a, er...and my gear cost around $5K...oooops...

    jimHJJ(...looks like I fail that litmus test...WAAHHH!...I'm a closet gearhead!!!...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

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  20. #20
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Jim has come out of the closet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernd
    Jim has come out of the closet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Where's John when you really need him?

    Oh. That was bad. That was really bad. I will burn for that for sure.
    Please forgive me.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #22
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Fye! For shame!

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...

    So I understand your POV and the fact that there are exceptions to every "rule"...So, okay...I have approx. 50 CDs of which I play maybe 30 with regularity...an unknown (at least at this moment) number of vinyl/lacquer disks of which probably thirty or so see the light of day and likewise with tapes...All adds up to maybe 100 recordings at say $10 a pop (more-or-less)...so lessee, carry the one...at's about a grand...a, er...and my gear cost around $5K...oooops...

    jimHJJ(...looks like I fail that litmus test...WAAHHH!...I'm a closet gearhead!!!...)
    Only 100 recordings?? I thought I was pathetic: after 35+ years of listening I've only 450 CDs and maybe 100 LPs; (I got rid of 100 or more LPs, not to mention a couple of dozen cassettes).

    But seriously, I don't care about your ratio, however that's not a lot of variety in your music. I have my favorites, (humm ... Shostakovich' quartets for instance), but I listen to 2/3 of my CD collection on a sort of rotational basis. I listen to radio too, largely for the variety -- perhaps you do too.

  23. #23
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    Holy Cow! I can't believe it! "Current active users viewing this thread = 10..." A brief resurection of the forums?

  24. #24
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    Part of the problem GMichael is that your $600 speakers are also just very good speakers regardless of price (the Infinities, right?). They are right on the beginning cusp of diminishing returns, IMHO.

    And as for the $1000 number here is how easy it can be without having to resort to BestBuy:

    Ascend 170s: $330


    Jolida Integrated: $350


    AT-120 Turntable w/ built in phono pre-amp: $160


    Upgraded Goldring hi-output cart: $100


    With plenty of money left over for cabling and accessories.

    The problem with a $100,000 system, is that you can't really hide it away in your own corner of the world. In a small room properly set up, this system would be super fun and hard to beat. I can already imagine it set up in a room above a detached garage away from the house and any wife or children. With just enough room for proper speaker placement, some racks of LPs, a liquor cabinet, an easy chair, and the classic car of your choice in the garage below. Ahhhh, a man can dream....
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  25. #25
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
    Holy Cow! I can't believe it! "Current active users viewing this thread = 10..." A brief resurection of the forums?
    I feel like a kid in a candy store.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

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