Hi Everybody!!

[ericl]

HI EVERYBODY!!

My name is Eric and I am the new site administrator for AudioREVIEW.com! I am very excited to be here, and I'm sure you're all just overcome with joy as well!

A brief bit about myself, I'm a twenty-something audio geek with a professional background in tech. I've been a frequent "lurker" on audio boards around the web for many years now - I don't post much but I'm on all the time. Up to now my main interest has been two channel and vinyl, but a new surround system is just around the corner for me. You all know the routine. I'll divulge more details about myself and my system as time passes.

I've got big plans for the site, and look forward to working with all of you improve the site and make it as cool a place as possible. Now I don't mean to be a downer, but part of those changes will be some new rules about posting, discussion, and how to behave in general. I'm leaning toward a somewhat tough stand on making this a safe place for friendly, subjective discussion about all kinds of audio. There will be a special forum for those of you who wish to discuss lab results, double blind testing, or think that there is no difference between different types of cables or equipment, etc. I also plan on adding some new forums, such as a computer/mp3 audio board, perhaps a forum for vintage equipment. I'd like your input on that.

To enforce these new rules, we will FINALLY be implementing a real moderator program. We'll get into this more later as well. If you're interested in being a moderator, check out this link, and feel free to apply (if you've already applied, please apply again, as we've lost many of our old applications in the transition).

There will be other exciting developements, coming soon. I'll be attending the CEDIA expo in September armed with a digital camera and the objective of schmoozing and checking out as much cool new stuff as possible. I'll be report back to you guys with photos and details on all the cool new stuff coming out. I'm looking forward to serving you guys!

-Eric

[WmAx]

HI EVERYBODY!!

My name is Eric and I am the new site administrator for AudioREVIEW.com! I am very excited to be here, and I'm sure you're all just overcome with joy as well!

Greetings.

Now I don't mean to be a downer, but part of those changes will be some new rules about posting, discussion, and how to behave in general. I'm leaning toward a somewhat tough stand on making this a safe place for friendly, subjective discussion about all kinds of audio. There will be a special forum for those of you who wish to discuss lab results, double blind testing, or think that there is no difference between different types of cables or equipment, etc.

Are you implying something similar to AUdio Ayslum? DIsallowing any challlenge to unsubstantiated claims from people? I certainly hope you don't mean something like that.

-Chris

[ericl]

Greetings.


Are you implying something similar to AUdio Ayslum? DIsallowing any challlenge to unsubstantiated claims from people? I certainly hope you don't mean something like that.

-Chris

Something like that. But don't worry, you'll have your very own forums. There will be a special forum(s) for "challenging" other people, but otherwise I want to make it a more friendly environment for newcomers, and others who want share experiences and enthusiasm for audio rather than lab results and skepticism. I know some of you may not like it, but I think it will increase and diversify participation on the board.

Cheers
Eric

[WmAx]

Something like that. But don't worry, you'll have your very own forums.

Yes, I've seen the result of these 'dedicated forums' like Prop Head at AA.

but otherwise I want to make it a more friendly environment for newcomers, and others who want share experiences and enthusiasm for audio rather than lab results and skepticism. I know some of you may not like it, but I think it will increase and diversify participation on the board.

I understand what I believe is your motivation. Increase the hits of the site. That is primary concern. Remove the requirment to back up claims as is enforced by many posters here, and you turn this into just another subjectivist watering hole full of fairytales.

-Chris

[ericl]

Yes, I've seen the result of these 'dedicated forums' like Prop Head at AA.


I understand what I believe is your motivation. Increase the hits of the site. That is primary concern. Remove the requirment to back up claims as is enforced by many posters here, and you turn this into just another subjectivist watering hole full of fairytales.

-Chris

I guess i can infer that you'll be one of the ones who won't like it. Any conversation outside of a science lab can be labeled "subjectivist". I'm perfectly comfortable with a "subjectivist watering hole" as it will be much more friendly to the newcomer and the typical hobbyist, since they're generally not interested in lab measurements and dbx, which seems to stifle good conversation anyway. But I understand that there is a group of people who wish to discuss lab results and dbt, abx etc, and there will be a place for that.

Eric

[Rockwell]

I guess i can infer that you'll be one of the ones who won't like it. Any conversation outside of a science lab can be labeled "subjectivist". I'm perfectly comfortable with a "subjectivist watering hole" as it will be much more friendly to the newcomer and the typical hobbyist, since they're generally not interested in lab measurements and dbx, which seems to stifle good conversation anyway. But I understand that there is a group of people who wish to discuss lab results and dbt, abx etc, and there will be a place for that.

Eric

How can you determine what a someone will be interested in? Maybe they haven't been exposed to those ideas.

[Woochifer]

Welcome to the group! First thing I gotta ask about -- where did the link to the galleries go? If you can clarify that, you'll definitely be on my good side ... well, until the next crisis!

[ericl]

Thanks!

The galleries link is a little hidden, we'll have to find a more prominent place to display it.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/
it can be found on the "Community & Events" page.

-Eric

[pwh03]

yes welcome and good luck

but I also hope that your new direction isn't to agressive even hometheaterforum.com is a little too restrictive in my opinion. I think most of us are old enough to take the occasional knock on our egos

thanks
Ph

[topspeed]

Welcome aboard, Eric.

I'm looking forward to the board becoming a more interesting place for people to share ideas. There's entirely too much squabbling here, imo.

Hopefully you can get the board thriving again.

Good luck.

[JSE]

Hello Eric,

I think some new fresh ideas and maybe a little shaking up of the boards in general would be a good thing. It's become a little stale around here lately. I pretty much know who will answer what questions and how they will answer. I am sure others can say the same about me. The fact is, we need more people to contribute. This is not to take away from our current members. There are some very good people here who really know what they are talking about and a lot members that myself and others like going back and forth with. We just need more people. Hopefully you can help make that happen. I have really cut back on my participation in recent months and I think a lot of others have as well due to the above mentioned reasons. A little shakin up could be just the thing to spark more interest.

JSE

[ericl]

Hello Eric,

I think some new fresh ideas and maybe a little shaking up of the boards in general would be a good thing. It's become a little stale around here lately. I pretty much know who will answer what questions and how they will answer. I am sure others can say the same about me. The fact is, we need more people to contribute. This is not to take away from our current members. There are some very good people here who really know what they are talking about and a lot members that myself and others like going back and forth with. We just need more people. Hopefully you can help make that happen. I have really cut back on my participation in recent months and I think a lot of others have as well due to the above mentioned reasons. A little shakin up could be just the thing to spark more interest.

JSE

I hear what you're saying, JSE. This is why I want to diversify the boards a little.

I'm still learning the way the site is put together and I'm sort of in a brainstorming phase.
Like I said I am going to be doing CEDIA Expo and other trade show coverage, and I am considering doing some equipment reviews. Once I've got a better grasp on the construction of the site I'll start making some changes.

Please let me know if you guys have any other ideas to spruce up the forums and the site in general, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,
Eric

[DMK]

HI EVERYBODY!!

My name is Eric and I am the new site administrator for AudioREVIEW.com! I am very excited to be here, and I'm sure you're all just overcome with joy as well!

A brief bit about myself, I'm a twenty-something audio geek with a professional background in tech. I've been a frequent "lurker" on audio boards around the web for many years now - I don't post much but I'm on all the time. Up to now my main interest has been two channel and vinyl, but a new surround system is just around the corner for me. You all know the routine. I'll divulge more details about myself and my system as time passes.

I've got big plans for the site, and look forward to working with all of you improve the site and make it as cool a place as possible. Now I don't mean to be a downer, but part of those changes will be some new rules about posting, discussion, and how to behave in general. I'm leaning toward a somewhat tough stand on making this a safe place for friendly, subjective discussion about all kinds of audio. There will be a special forum for those of you who wish to discuss lab results, double blind testing, or think that there is no difference between different types of cables or equipment, etc. I also plan on adding some new forums, such as a computer/mp3 audio board, perhaps a forum for vintage equipment. I'd like your input on that.

To enforce these new rules, we will FINALLY be implementing a real moderator program. We'll get into this more later as well. If you're interested in being a moderator, check out this link, and feel free to apply (if you've already applied, please apply again, as we've lost many of our old applications in the transition).

There will be other exciting developements, coming soon. I'll be attending the CEDIA expo in September armed with a digital camera and the objective of schmoozing and checking out as much cool new stuff as possible. I'll be report back to you guys with photos and details on all the cool new stuff coming out. I'm looking forward to serving you guys!

-Eric

Greetings, Eric!

I can certainly appreciate what you're trying to do by separating the so-called "yeasayers" from the "naysayers". At least, I appreciate it from a business perspective. However, it's quite like separating the democrats and republicans or any two groups of people with differing views. It's doubtful much will be learned without direct interaction of the two groups. While I appreciate what you're trying to do, it doesn't sound like the place for me. Best of luck in your new endeavor.

[ericl]

Greetings, Eric!

I can certainly appreciate what you're trying to do by separating the so-called "yeasayers" from the "naysayers". At least, I appreciate it from a business perspective. However, it's quite like separating the democrats and republicans or any two groups of people with differing views. It's doubtful much will be learned without direct interaction of the two groups. While I appreciate what you're trying to do, it doesn't sound like the place for me. Best of luck in your new endeavor.

Hey Guys, I guess I came on a little strong. Sorry about that. We're here to have fun right?!

I see it like this:

I recognize that there are at least two "factions" of audio guys with differing views. Thats great. I'm starting to question all of my assumptions the more I get into the debate, and I'm learning a lot. I'm all for the debate, I'm all for the conversation. I really think it is great. Yet even though you guys having opposing views, you have to recognize that you are both quite advanced in this hobby. In fact, you guys are way beyond the advanced stage, and beyond the 'hobby' too. I see you guys, on both sides, as audio philosophers. I want you to have your very own Audio Think Tank (can you tell I'm experimenting with forum names here?).

The problem is with the many people who don't fall into those categories, or don't care about the debate, the methods, the philosophy, the frequency response charts, or any of that. Newbies, vintage guys, home theater guys, kids, or god forbid, someone who's just interested in MUSIC and wants to get good sound out their collection (remember that? Music!). They walk into this debate and it is pretty intimidating, to say the least, and they walk away confused and still don't know which receiver they should buy!

I want them to be able to have a "safe space" to discuss the basics without getting dragged into the debate and through the mud. And I promise I don't want to marginalize anybody.

OK?

Cheers,
Eric

[DMK]

Hey Guys, I guess I came on a little strong. Sorry about that. We're here to have fun right?!

I see it like this:

I recognize that there are at least two "factions" of audio guys with differing views. Thats great. I'm starting to question all of my assumptions the more I get into the debate, and I'm learning a lot. I'm all for the debate, I'm all for the conversation. I really think it is great. Yet even though you guys having opposing views, you have to recognize that you are both quite advanced in this hobby. In fact, you guys are way beyond the advanced stage, and beyond the 'hobby' too. I see you guys, on both sides, as audio philosophers. I want you to have your very own Audio Think Tank (can you tell I'm experimenting with forum names here?).

The problem is with the many people who don't fall into those categories, or don't care about the debate, the methods, the philosophy, the frequency response charts, or any of that. Newbies, vintage guys, home theater guys, kids, or god forbid, someone who's just interested in MUSIC and wants to get good sound out their collection (remember that? Music!). They walk into this debate and it is pretty intimidating, to say the least, and they walk away confused and still don't know which receiver they should buy!

I want them to be able to have a "safe space" to discuss the basics without getting dragged into the debate and through the mud. And I promise I don't want to marginalize anybody.

OK?

Cheers,
Eric

See Skeptic's post below. He speaks for a lot of us. OUCH! Hadda pinch myself and yes, I'm awake and yes, I agree with Skeptic. LOOK... UP IN THE SKY! Are those... FLYING PIGS???

Kidding, Skep, kidding! But Eric, that's an example of what I mean. Skeptic and I are diametrically opposed on a lot of things and still I've learned a lot of useful info from him. Had I chosen to steer clear of him, I never would have given myself the opportunity.

For those that don't want to get into the debate, they're free to ignore whatever posts they choose. Those that want to debate are free to do so. But what about the people that only hear one side of the issue and have no clue? All they'll hear is the party line to which they've stumbled upon. Fun is great but learning new things is fun, no?

Ultimately it's your forum and you can do what you want, but there's already Audio Asylum for those that choose not to see both sides. A/R is better because it's a place for the free exchange of ideas and is not subject to censorship.

[Steve1000]

I agree. This does not sound good. I'm looking for a new place already. If anyone finds anything could you please PM me or post here?

Ultimately it's your forum and you can do what you want, but there's already Audio Asylum for those that choose not to see both sides. A/R is better because it's a place for the free exchange of ideas and is not subject to censorship.

[skeptic]

This board has been a success for the four years I've been coming here BECAUSE it has been open to the discussion which the PARTICIPANTS want to engage in. Within the reasonable bounds of civility, everything has been allowed even if it has strayed from the topic of a particular category. If a discussion goes in an unusual direction, the people who post here take it where it is going and those not interested in it move on.

"Now I don't mean to be a downer, but part of those changes will be some new rules about posting, discussion, and how to behave in general. I'm leaning toward a somewhat tough stand on making this a safe place for friendly, subjective discussion about all kinds of audio. There will be a special forum for those of you who wish to discuss lab results, double blind testing, or think that there is no difference between different types of cables or equipment, etc"

Any attempt to censor the discussions here whether because they stray off topic, or they violate some mind control rule arbitrarily imposed such as the anti DBT rule at Cable Asylum, or they put certain advertisers here in a less than flattering light and I'm out of here in a heartbeat. I'm sure half the people who regularly post here feel the same way. This is exactly how we started out when Chris became the moderator and he caught on quickly. I'm not interested in being part of an advertising billboard boosting any companies or cottage industries such as the audiophile cable industry.

"To enforce these new rules, we will FINALLY be implementing a real moderator program."

We've always had a real moderator. He did his job with a minimum of interference. That's how most of us like it. If you're a moderator, then restrict your activities to moderating, not censoring. You can be a participant if you like but your claims and statements may be discussed and challenged just like anyone elses including by people with more knowledge and experience than you have. That's the way it's always been around here. If you want to become a dictator, I'm out the door in one step. Nobody tells me what I can say or can't say as long as I remain civil and show reasonable respect for other people posting here. And if I choose to call someone who moderates on another board a Nazi mind control dictator as I have in the past, that had better be OK too. BTW, if your posting means that some of this place is to be dumbed down, I'm outta here too.

For now I will suspend judgement to wait and see what develops.

[Resident Loser]

...some form of "AA Light"...

I think you will see the only inhabitants @ this site who would like to have free dialog curtailed in some way, are those who have such a shaky belief system that it will not stand up to scrutiny...

Newbies can ask all the questions they choose to...there are those among us who have such a high opinion of themselves, they toss out recommendations(very many high-ticket ones to boot) based on lord-knows-what, in an effort to impress the impressionable; based on the misplaced "philosophy" that throwing money at a "problem"(real OR imagined) is the answer to all. As long as that kind of response is tolerated, there MUST be counterpoint to it. Any segregation of a dialoge in response to such posts, only re-inforces the mythology that surrounds the audio community.

Anyone with half a brain can manage to sift through it all and get some sort of feel for what is real and what isn't, it ain't rocket science!

jimHJJ(...like Skep, I too will reserve judgement...)

[TinHere]

Hi Eric,

There are many audio sites that enforce the constraints you are considering where members can preach to the choir. AR has always had the distinction of upholding the freedom to question claims, which has allowed for thought provoking debate and an introduction to "newbies" that all that is claimed is not fact. IMHO the restrictions you want to impose will lead to the further migration of knowlegable posters from AR. Perhaps a seperate new forum with a title like "Fantasy Findings" might be more acceptable to the stalwarts who have maintained a presence here over the years and allow for unchallenged subjective discussions. That way "newbies" would be given the message that all that they read of subjective claims is not necessarily accepted as undisbuted fact as is often pointed out by some members, and maybe create a bastion for unchallenged discussions for those who wish to partake. I don't think the solution is censoring factual information of an entire side of debatable issues as if they don't exist.

Anyway, good luck with all that.

[brulaha]

Hi Eric,

There are many audio sites that enforce the constraints you are considering where members can preach to the choir. AR has always had the distinction of upholding the freedom to question claims, which has allowed for thought provoking debate and an introduction to "newbies" that all that is claimed is not fact. IMHO the restrictions you want to impose will lead to the further migration of knowlegable posters from AR. Perhaps a seperate new forum with a title like "Fantasy Findings" might be more acceptable to the stalwarts who have maintained a presence here over the years and allow for unchallenged subjective discussions. That way "newbies" would be given the message that all that they read of subjective claims is not necessarily accepted as undisbuted fact as is often pointed out by some members, and maybe create a bastion for unchallenged discussions for those who wish to partake. I don't think the solution is censoring factual information of an entire side of debatable issues as if they don't exist.

Anyway, good luck with all that.

Hmmmm...I recognize that name from somewhere. Where could it be??? Possibly a CD exchange group of some kind? How are you buddy? I have been paroosing here for about a month again...good to see your still around.

[TinHere]

Hmmmm...I recognize that name from somewhere. Where could it be??? Possibly a CD exchange group of some kind? How are you buddy? I have been paroosing here for about a month again...good to see your still around.

Hey Brulaha! Good to see ya. Shoot me a PM and let me know what's doing with ya.

[ToddB]

Things definitely look encouraging at AR. With a new moderator who's intent on implementing some very constructive changes, and the support of management to make those changes, the future of this board seems to be more promising than it's been for a very long time.

The reason changes need to be made in the forums is because the tone here long ago devolved into a state that is short-sighted, antagonistic, and destructive, and it happened primarily because the naysayers have been allowed virtually unchecked freedom to harass people who make comments of an anecdotal or experiential nature. The thing is, those anecdotal and experiential comments are exactly what should be posted here. It's been a real shame to watch most of the people making such comments drift away to other websites when they got tired of the endless invective that was directed at them. When people can't take home a new component, or make a new cable, or try a new product, and come here and share the experience of how that item sounded to them, without having to risk incurring the wrath of a gang of pseudo-scientists for whom no listening experience outside of a DBT is valid, then there's a problem. AR definitely has a very big problem.

Hopefully, that problem will be coming to an end very shortly. I know that previous moderators have made noises about improving the state of the forums, and nothing much has resulted, but Eric is not kidding about making some significant changes here. In fact, I'm fairly certain that the only reason he's willing to create and try an objectivist forum is because I suggested the idea to him. Believe me, when it's to the point that I'm defending the objectivists, their cause is in pretty bad shape. I don't have a problem with discussions about DBTs, per se, but I do have a problem with the topic of DBTs being inserted into discussions inappropriately. Scientific validations are certainly one aspect of audio, but they are only ONE aspect of audio, not the totality of it.

Ultimately, the audio hobby is reliant upon the hearing ability of those involved in it, regardless of how imperfect that reliance may be, and regardless of the ability for science to explain and quantify every consideration about the hearing experience. For the naysayers who want to continue posting here, they would do well to either accept this reality, or temper their comments with better discretion, because I don't think that you're going to want Eric to temper your comments for you.

[46minaudio]

I can now go in the cable bussiness..Maybe even start selling those green markers that make cds sound better..

[E-Stat]

The reason changes need to be made in the forums is because the tone here long ago devolved into a state that is short-sighted, antagonistic, and destructive, and it happened primarily because the naysayers have been allowed virtually unchecked freedom to harass people who make comments of an anecdotal or experiential nature. The thing is, those anecdotal and experiential comments are exactly what should be posted here. It's been a real shame to watch most of the people making such comments drift away to other websites when they got tired of the endless invective that was directed at them. When people can't take home a new component, or make a new cable, or try a new product, and come here and share the experience of how that item sounded to them, without having to risk incurring the wrath of a gang of pseudo-scientists for whom no listening experience outside of a DBT is valid, then there's a problem. AR definitely has a very big problem.

Hopefully, that problem will be coming to an end very shortly. I know that previous moderators have made noises about improving the state of the forums, and nothing much has resulted, but Eric is not kidding about making some significant changes here. In fact, I'm fairly certain that the only reason he's willing to create and try an objectivist forum is because I suggested the idea to him. Believe me, when it's to the point that I'm defending the objectivists, their cause is in pretty bad shape. I don't have a problem with discussions about DBTs, per se, but I do have a problem with the topic of DBTs being inserted into discussions inappropriately. Scientific validations are certainly one aspect of audio, but they are only ONE aspect of audio, not the totality of it.

Ultimately, the audio hobby is reliant upon the hearing ability of those involved in it, regardless of how imperfect that reliance may be, and regardless of the ability for science to explain and quantify every consideration about the hearing experience. For the naysayers who want to continue posting here, they would do well to either accept this reality, or temper their comments with better discretion, because I don't think that you're going to want Eric to temper your comments for you.

Amen. I think there is a place for both. Not all observationalists are flakes as is often asserted. Perhaps I too can tone done my sarcasm with one individual in particular and take up your offer.

rw

[Quagmire]

Hi Eric,

Welcome. I'll be a voice of dissention from most of the replies you have received so far. I think what you're proposing is a good idea and doesn't amount to censorship as others here have suggested. It isn't as though you are saying that these "debates" can't take place; just that they will be more confined to a dedicated board for those who are most interested in them. I also don't believe (from what you've said so far) that it means that some level of healthy debate can't take place on the other boards; just that you don't intend to let the discussion deteriorate to the point that DBT's and the like become the primary focus for all of the other boards.

I've been coming here for quite awhile, and used to post often. I can tell you that this forum is only a shell of its former self. We used to have more action on just one board than we do on the entire forum nowadays, and I think this issue and management's lack of providing some kind of useful response to it has been the primary factor in the overall decline of the forum. It is no secret that we've lost a lot of really knowledgeable people who were regular contributors to these boards. Frankly, I think folks just got tired of having so many threads "hijacked" by this group, to the point that nearly all discussion degenerated to being about this one topic. On more than one occation, I made the argument that this is suppose to be a "hobbyist" forum and not a laboratory. Granted, the scientific aspects of the hobby are just as valid, but not everyone wants to have this discussion and especially not be forced into it. I recall many times that someon who posted a simple question would get totally ignored - no helpful or practical advice given at all - while the "audibility debates" completely overtook the thread. It is sad but true that if people don't practice a little self restraint, eventually someone has to step in and do it for them. Here we have a case where management has ignored this problem for so long that the ship is almost sunk before they begin to do anything about it. Eventually, there is no need to worry about whether something qualifies as censorship or not because there is no longer any discussion to supposedly censor anyway.

You would think that this group would be thrilled to have their own board. But as you are now finding out, that is not the case. They will allege that restricting this topic to a dedicated board amounts to censorship. However, I would suggest that in the past, because of a lack of self restraint and managment's unresponsiveness, all that we had was this one board - in essence they turned the entire forum into a board dedicated to this one topic. As I said already, I think that was the reason for the mass exodus that we saw, as people just got feed up. Having a dedicated board provides an outlet for those who are truly interested in this subject. Perhaps more importantly, it unfetters the remaining boards so that discussions there can expand beyond the parameters of this one debate. I fail to see how this qualifies as censorship when we finally get to talk about more that one thing. I know that there are plenty of people who will disagree with me... that's perfectly fine. I would just respond by saying that although for some, it may be hard to distinguish between the two, freedom and anarchy are not the same thing. Freedom will always attract people while anarchy will drive them away. One need only look at what has happened to this forum to discern which we have had more of around here. I'll get off of my soapbox now.

Q