• 08-21-2007, 01:25 PM
    JLMoore72
    Help with Home Audio concerns
    I have been experimenting with home audio for about 10 years, but I need some advice from anyone who's been in my situation before:

    These are the components that I have:

    Pioneer VSX-810S Reciever
    2 Cerwin Vega E-315 Front Speakers (15 inch)
    2 Cerwin Vega LS-6 Surround Speakers
    2 Cerwin Vega E-76C Center Channel Speakers
    MTX SW-2 Down firing Subwoofer

    I spent almost 5 years assembling this set, and it will really jam! The thing that I would really like to see (I mean hear), is a better overall sound. Even though most people can't contend with what I have (at least people that I know), I spent way too much money on this stuff not to have it putting out what it's capable of. Generally, the sound output is coming from my PS3(I uploaded about 20 c.d.s onto it), but sometimes I will put in a c.d. It sounds real good when it's putting out DTS, etc. but I just want to make sure that I am getting all that I can out of what I have. Please let me know of any ideas or suggestions. Thank you for your time and consideration.

    -John
  • 08-21-2007, 01:39 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Well, I have tons of questions...

    First, why do you have 2 center channel speakers?
    Second, have you listened to any high-end systems before?
    Third, what is your room size, dimensions?
    Fourth, do you have a budget in mind in order to build upon what you have?
    Fifth, are you open to the idea of selling all your equipment and starting from scratch?
  • 08-21-2007, 05:42 PM
    JLMoore72
    The reason for 2 center channel speakers is that 1 of them is for the front center speaker while the other is for the rear surround speaker.
    What do you mean by "high end" systems?
    The dimensions are around 10x10. Unfortunately, it has hardwood floors.
    Budgets are dependent on the situation. E.G. What I would have to do and why.
    As far as selling what I have, what suggestions would you have? I was under the impression that the CVs were a high end speaker. I assume that there are better ones out there, but I'm not sure what. When I bought the speakers, I listened to the Bose and the Paradigms, but they didn't really provide the "jam" abilities that the CVs did.

    Thanks for your time!
  • 08-21-2007, 05:54 PM
    musicman1999
    10x10,wow tough room for good sound.The hardwood floors are not that bad,a rug between the front speakers will help.But in a room that small and square speaker set up would be an issue.Not to be insulting by CV are not high end speakers,maybe compared to Bose they might be but go out and listen to some speakers you may be suprised.

    bill
  • 08-21-2007, 08:51 PM
    dingus
    unfortunately there are no easy answers. in addition to the questions from PeruvianSkies (imo you should seriously consider question # 5), what is it about your system that your are unhappy with?

    i think for all those speakers, your room is very small. if your receiver can accommodate it, run only the surrounds and sub in stereo mode and see how it sounds. expand your horizons, in other words, get out and listen to different systems and components. this does not include demos at Best Buy, Circuit City and the like, the chains are strictly off limits. look for a local audio society/club and listen to the members' systems, as well as any local members of this forum who would be willing to offer you and audition of their system.

    thats just for starters, it will take time and effort to educate yourself as to what a "high-end" system is, and to how close you can get to it within your means. i didnt come up with the saying, but its true, "we all get the sound we deserve".
  • 08-22-2007, 08:35 AM
    JLMoore72
    Guys-

    Thank you for all of the advice, but I'm still a little confused. Everyone keeps mentioning high end speakers, but what make are you speaking of?? Let's put it this way. If you had what I have, then what would you do? And if I sell what I have, then what should I then buy?

    Thank you all!
  • 08-22-2007, 08:58 AM
    musicman1999
    Do you have any stores that sell audio gear in your area?There are many brands of speakers out there,most would be considered better than CV.Myself,i use Focal-Jm labs,but there are B&W,Paradigm,Kef,Psb to name but a few.You need to establish a few things like what you want to accomplish,you say it sounds real good but you want better sound.The truth is you may well be getting all your system can do,better sound is out there,but you need to decide how much you are willing to spend to get it.You did not mention your display.First thing is go and listen to a good system and hear what can be done before you do it,but be prepared to start over completely.

    bill
  • 08-22-2007, 09:18 AM
    dingus
    we can only tell you what we have done or would do, not what you should do. you have to find that out for yourself based on what you want. in order to do that you need to get out and hear some different systems and decide what you like, the more the better. there is a ton of quality or "high-end" equipment out there, not just speakers. finding out what works best, or sounds best to you, is what you are after.

    my advice:
    are you going to move to a bigger room down the road? if not then i would find a speaker (most likely a 2-way, maybe with a well integrated sub) that works best in that room (by best i mean the one that sounds best to you in that room).

    if you are going to be moving to a larger room at some point, i would focus on the best full-range speaker (again, by best i mean the one that sounds best to you) that i could afford.

    in either case i would sell off the current gear to finance equipment that matches well with the new speakers, concentrating on the used market in order to get a better return on the dollar in terms of quality sound. but thats just me, its more than likely going to be quite different for you.
  • 08-22-2007, 02:26 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Don't feel confused if you don't know what 'high-end' is. That term is something that hardly exists these days because of places like BB or CC. The world of HiFi is nearly non-existent in popular culture. Sometimes you don't know good sound until you actually hear it and that is where we can help, because the people here are the last of a dying breed and we are trying to keep the world of HiFi alive, although it will probably remain for the minority, and some of us are OK with that too.

    I would also echo someone else's comment about searching around and seeing what else is out there, but also it's about what you want to accomplish...do you have any audio goals?

    It's easy to hit a target when you have an idea what the target looks like and that will come by going around and testing some stuff out. Your eyes and most of all EARS will be surprised what is out there... good luck.
  • 08-22-2007, 06:32 PM
    SlumpBuster
    Alright, I'm not going to bag on your gear, but lets put in in car terms.

    What you've got is the equivalent of an old muscle car. It goes very fast, but only in a straight line. However, it is not very refined, in the corners it falls apart and gets very sloppy, and has been specifically marketed to the youth demographic. Now your walking into an mechanic's shop and asking for him to make your GTO to handle and perform like an Audi A8. Yes, they both have 450 horsepower, but a GTO and an A8 will never be confused.

    Your stereo does one thing very good: it is loud. However, even without hearing the system I will assure you of one thing - you are hearing distorted sound. I don't mean distortion in the common sense, but rather in the audiophile sense. For example, in a 10 x 10 room with 2 15" drivers and a sub, there are certainly massive peaks and nulls of bass energy. I would bet by +/- 30db in some cases. Let me translate - sound frequency is measured in "hertz." The human ear can theoretically hear from 20hz to 20,000hz. Bass lives in the 20 hz to 120hz range. Your system may be producing a bass spike of +30db at 50hz, but creating a null (or lack of bass) at 80hz by as big of a factor. But the system will still appear to be "jammin" because of that 50hz spike and the corresponding hit of the kick drum. But because of that 80hz null, you've never heard the drummer playing the floor tom like George of the Jungle. That is the type of distortion I'm talking about. Your system is virtually guaranteed to be significantly changing the music from its original or intended form. I know, because I have similar spikes and nulls in my system that I'm just having to live with for the time being.

    So, what to do. I would first attack frequency response and volume. Chances are you are playing your system entirely too loud and risking potential hearing damage. Here's what you do:
    1. Visit rivesaudio.com
    2. Order their TestCD and Radioshack db meter package ($60).
    3. While waiting for the CD and meter to be delivered, click the "Resources" link at the Rives wesite and start reading.

    Once fq response and dbs have been tamed, then we can start on soundstaging, depth, and learning how to listen to music.

    Good luck.
  • 08-22-2007, 06:44 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SlumpBuster
    Alright, I'm not going to bag on your gear, but lets put in in car terms.

    What you've got is the equivalent of an old muscle car. It goes very fast, but only in a straight line. However, it is not very refined, in the corners it falls apart and gets very sloppy, and has been specifically marketed to the youth demographic. Now your walking into an mechanic's shop and asking for him to make your GTO to handle and perform like an Audi A8. Yes, they both have 450 horsepower, but a GTO and an A8 will never be confused.

    Your stereo does one thing very good: it is loud. However, even without hearing the system I will assure you of one thing - you are hearing distorted sound. I don't mean distortion in the common sense, but rather in the audiophile sense. For example, in a 10 x 10 room with 2 15" drivers and a sub, there are certainly massive peaks and nulls of bass energy. I would bet by +/- 30db in some cases. Let me translate - sound frequency is measured in "hertz." The human ear can theoretically hear from 20hz to 20,000hz. Bass lives in the 20 hz to 120hz range. Your system may be producing a bass spike of +30db at 50hz, but creating a null (or lack of bass) at 80hz by as big of a factor. But the system will still appear to be "jammin" because of that 50hz spike and the corresponding hit of the kick drum. But because of that 80hz null, you've never heard the drummer playing the floor tom like George of the Jungle. That is the type of distortion I'm talking about. Your system is virtually guaranteed to be significantly changing the music from its original or intended form. I know, because I have similar spikes and nulls in my system that I'm just having to live with for the time being.

    So, what to do. I would first attack frequency response and volume. Chances are you are playing your system entirely too loud and risking potential hearing damage. Here's what you do:
    1. Visit rivesaudio.com
    2. Order their TestCD and Radioshack db meter package ($60).
    3. While waiting for the CD and meter to be delivered, click the "Resources" link at the Rives wesite and start reading.

    Once fq response and dbs have been tamed, then we can start on soundstaging, depth, and learning how to listen to music.

    Good luck.

    Great advice and metaphor!
  • 08-30-2007, 11:54 PM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JLMoore72
    I have been experimenting with home audio for about 10 years, but I need some advice from anyone who's been in my situation before:

    These are the components that I have:

    Pioneer VSX-810S Reciever
    2 Cerwin Vega E-315 Front Speakers (15 inch)
    2 Cerwin Vega LS-6 Surround Speakers
    2 Cerwin Vega E-76C Center Channel Speakers
    MTX SW-2 Down firing Subwoofer

    I spent almost 5 years assembling this set, and it will really jam! The thing that I would really like to see (I mean hear), is a better overall sound. Even though most people can't contend with what I have (at least people that I know), I spent way too much money on this stuff not to have it putting out what it's capable of. Generally, the sound output is coming from my PS3(I uploaded about 20 c.d.s onto it), but sometimes I will put in a c.d. It sounds real good when it's putting out DTS, etc. but I just want to make sure that I am getting all that I can out of what I have. Please let me know of any ideas or suggestions. Thank you for your time and consideration.

    -John

    Sounds like you like a lot of vollume, in which case your cerwins are perfect.
    but its to your credit that you know that something is lacking.
    A lot of respondents to your post are trying to be gentle with you, but the truth is that your speakers arent highly regarded. They are basically car stereo speakers in a cabinet
    for home use. And you are driving them with a pioneer, what used to be a good maker of receivers before they sold out and started making plastic receivers
    (jump right in peruvian):lol:
    You might want to try something a little more detailed and refined, your cerwins are a blunt axe, they will never give a satisfying sound image.
    And in regard to your question "am I getting all that I can out of these," the answer is yes
    you are. But dont worry, you are probably young, and you'll learn:thumbsup:
  • 08-31-2007, 02:31 AM
    basite
    I too would sell everything and try to move up in the hifi world...

    a 10x10 room is pretty small for such large speakers, frequency response is going to be messed up completely, and you'll be going way to loud. As a matter of fact, you could buy real high end speakers (well, more high end, not exotic like some of the members here...) and go loud too, but this time, with more detail, better sound, not just plain loud.

    for instance: sell the pioneer, and get a better HT receiver, a Denon or a marantz, maybe even a rotel would be a good choice. once you've replaced the pioneer, you could start to look at better speakers, I think you should check out Monitor audio (the silver reference series will please you I think) a pair of RS8's, even a pair of RS6's would do well in your room, Monitor audio is an exellent match with denon, but also look at other brands: B&W will do fine with denon too, but even better with a rotel receiver... and get a matching center channel. there you go already, you already have a good receiver, and the front speakers are all done, for the rear speakers: you could use the CW's for a while, and after that you could get matching rear speakers, also from the same brand as the front speakers, however, for the front speakers, you should best get the same brand, and from the same line, otherwise, the sound will be wrong...

    spend a little on cables too, you don't need to spend a ton on cables, but don't stay with the regular lamp cord...

    Good luck,
    Bert.
  • 08-31-2007, 05:57 AM
    SlumpBuster
    Yeah, I don't think he is listening anymore, guys. I think he thought he had the sh!t and was just looking for confirmation. With that not coming, he's outta here.
  • 08-31-2007, 02:23 PM
    jim1961
    Like many of these threads amount to, you think your mid-fi stuff sounds pretty good until you hear truly hi-fi, then you want to hit yourself for being ignorant and scrap everything you have. Unfortunatly, its not usually in most peoples budget to go drop $3000 minimum on a decent set up, and many of you have spent more than that on one component.
  • 08-31-2007, 04:22 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    And you are driving them with a pioneer, what used to be a good maker of receivers before they sold out and started making plastic receivers
    (jump right in peruvian):lol:
    :

    Well, I hope that I am right on cue, but I figured I would clarify a few things here. The first, is that my Pioneer Elite receiver is not plastic, the front console is Aluminum since it is an older Elite model. Quite honestly I don't really care WHAT it's made out of because I happen to like the functionality of Pioneer and have never had any issues with them. Right now I am bypassing the Receiver for my 2-channel setup and just using the pre-outs in order to process digital signals, most of the time I am running straight analog and into my Parasound amp. Even still, the Pioneer does well. Contrary to what some people think, they do make quality products and don't charge a fortune for it, especially with their Elite line, which has always been a solid contender. Most people underestimate Pioneer and we all know what happened when Goliath underestimated David don't we?

    To some extent the advice that Pix has given is fair. He isn't lying about your speakers and such, but beware because sometimes he doesn't practice what he preaches....like badmouthing Rich-N-Texas for driving his B&W's with a receiver...and yet....Pix drives his B&W's with a receiver....oh my. Regardless of price in this case it doesn't matter....your credibility is shot when you try giving advice that you don't take yourself.

    See you later Troll. Probably tonight at your usual lurking hours (between 2am EST and 5am EST).
  • 08-31-2007, 04:56 PM
    musicman1999
    PS

    Glad to hear you like your Pioneer so much,i like the ones that i have heard as well,and you have progressed your system very well in the past while but the reciever is now your weak link.It is time for a nice pre-amp and for the reciever to go to your theatre room where it belongs.

    bill
  • 08-31-2007, 06:14 PM
    Mr Peabody
    P Sky, there is a BIG difference between a Pioneer and an Integra. Pioneer wishes they made anything that good.

    And, you guys preach about this board needing traffic then when some one who asks for advice who is obviously still a novice though claiming 10 years of experience. Pix this is a prime example of what I was talking about in an earlier post when I mentioned years don't equal knowledge. The best you guys can do is tell him to junk his system. What kind of shtuff is that? The guy said he listened to CV AND Paradigm, who I think is a decent speaker, so he obviously liked the sound of the CV. Slump gave an excellent response. He targeted the exact thing I was going to mention, the 15's and sub, except I didn't know about where to get the test disc and meter. He could also play with room treatments. He could also set his receiver to "no sub" and direct the LFE to his mains which would possibly help some. I'm sure if you engaged your mind before your mouths, you could come up with something better he could have done with what he had. You guys were all over this guy like a bunch of elitest jerks. If you don't like the truth, imagine how JL felt. So let the chicklets fly.
  • 08-31-2007, 06:29 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by musicman1999
    PS

    Glad to hear you like your Pioneer so much,i like the ones that i have heard as well,and you have progressed your system very well in the past while but the reciever is now your weak link.It is time for a nice pre-amp and for the reciever to go to your theatre room where it belongs.

    bill

    That's my plan. Eliminate the weak spots.

    Mr. Peabody...B&W wishes it could make speakers like PSB...so what's your point? It's not like I said Pioneer was BETTER than Integra (unless you can find where I siad that).....I just like Pioneer stuff, have been happy with it, and am still using it until I get a Parasound pre-amp or something similar.
  • 08-31-2007, 07:28 PM
    dingus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    ... You guys were all over this guy like a bunch of elitest jerks.

    expanding ones horizons is always a good idea. if after having done so, he decides that he still likes his gear, then it will at least be a better informed decision and he will be much more satisfied with his gear. if he had already done that, he wouldnt have had to ask the question in the first place. also, do you really think the best thing he can do is to stick with his CV's? maybe i am being elitist, but to my ear, much better can be had for the same money or less.
  • 08-31-2007, 08:34 PM
    jim1961
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody

    You guys were all over this guy like a bunch of elitest jerks.

    I dont think its elitism to point out that better equipment is ones best remedy. And sometimes that requires pointing out the quality, or lack of it in one what owns. But there are pleasant ways to go about it though.
  • 08-31-2007, 09:02 PM
    Mr Peabody
    I didn't say CV's were, in my, or your, opinion, the "best" speaker option. But apparently he done, at the least, some comparison, and CV was what he liked. I think most start out thinking big woofers are the way to go, and they still could be, if your only musical taste was Rap, but an educated ear will eventually learn a smaller woofer is faster and more accurate done properly.

    Unless some one has more money than they know what to do with upgrades have to be done gradually. Scrapping your entire system is pretty much not an option. So he could start with improving his current situation and taking steps from there. With that large of speakers and 2 centers in that size space, I'm wondering if the listening chair is the only thing else there is room for:) So many people use the car audio mentallity with home subs as well, if 12:00 is good, then 3 or 6:00 must be better. Not so though. your sub amp needs headroom for peaks and operate with out distortion for clean bass response.

    You don't start school in the 12th grade, you get there gradually. I'm just saying there could have been more thought put into the responses and definitely more tact. There are many here with some expensive higher end gear, I don't think those who are running receivers would appreciate us telling them their system is crap and they need to go out and get better gear. What amazes me is how many have good gear, yet don't have a good playback source. I've gotten tired of trying to explain the importance of a good front end and hope that some day those ears may opened by an audition. Music playback has different priorities in peoples lives, we all have different means and we are all not on the same level of experience, so we need to consider this and have some respect. The AR forums should be for all of what I mentioned and we have to be careful as to not run people off with our attitude. Aside from everything else, JL may be a younger guy and not ready for a system with more resolution, preferring a system with SPL and thump.

    And, in all of your defense, mama, or somebody, once said, "don't ask the question, if you aren't ready for the answer", or was it, "be careful what you ask because you might not like the answer", or, did I hear both..... hmmmmm
  • 08-31-2007, 10:10 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jim1961
    I dont think its elitism to point out that better equipment is ones best remedy. And sometimes that requires pointing out the quality, or lack of it in one what owns. But there are pleasant ways to go about it though.

    Well said. Quite honestly most of my improvements over the years have come from constructive criticism. I know what my weak areas are in my system, but rather than go out and buy a pre-amp for a few hundred bucks to avoid using my receiver I would rather invest the time in trying a few out, demo things, wait for good deals, save money, and then get something I am happy about. In the meantime, the receiver gets the job done and my system still sounds wonderful despite the weak link.
  • 09-01-2007, 04:55 AM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    I didn't say CV's were, in my, or your, opinion, the "best" speaker option. But apparently he done, at the least, some comparison, and CV was what he liked. I think most start out thinking big woofers are the way to go, and they still could be, if your only musical taste was Rap, but an educated ear will eventually learn a smaller woofer is faster and more accurate done properly.

    Unless some one has more money than they know what to do with upgrades have to be done gradually. Scrapping your entire system is pretty much not an option. So he could start with improving his current situation and taking steps from there. With that large of speakers and 2 centers in that size space, I'm wondering if the listening chair is the only thing else there is room for:) So many people use the car audio mentallity with home subs as well, if 12:00 is good, then 3 or 6:00 must be better. Not so though. your sub amp needs headroom for peaks and operate with out distortion for clean bass response.

    You don't start school in the 12th grade, you get there gradually. I'm just saying there could have been more thought put into the responses and definitely more tact. There are many here with some expensive higher end gear, I don't think those who are running receivers would appreciate us telling them their system is crap and they need to go out and get better gear. What amazes me is how many have good gear, yet don't have a good playback source. I've gotten tired of trying to explain the importance of a good front end and hope that some day those ears may opened by an audition. Music playback has different priorities in peoples lives, we all have different means and we are all not on the same level of experience, so we need to consider this and have some respect. The AR forums should be for all of what I mentioned and we have to be careful as to not run people off with our attitude. Aside from everything else, JL may be a younger guy and not ready for a system with more resolution, preferring a system with SPL and thump.

    And, in all of your defense, mama, or somebody, once said, "don't ask the question, if you aren't ready for the answer", or was it, "be careful what you ask because you might not like the answer", or, did I hear both..... hmmmmm

    Where to start.
    Sometimes you just have to trash the whole (as the english say) kit and start over.
    There is no redeeming value in cerwins whatsoever, why waste your time?
    My first speakers were optimus, thats right, from "the shack", they were pretty good for the day, with pretty decent drivers. They were replaced by Genesis as soon as possible.
    As for Pioneer their new stuff is a faint shadow of their older stuff.
    A friend fished a SX-90 from a dumpster once, gave it to me, worked perefectly and I later sold it for a 100$ They dont make em like that anymore.
    And finally, the "receiver" is a two edged sword, an all purpose utility knife that allows
    a lot of people to have a higher quality system than they normally could.
    but there is the law of diminishing returns, when you get to a certain level and your "receiver" is big enough to double as a coffee table its time to start thinking seperates.
    Something where the amps dont share the same power supply, where precious resources
    aren't wasted on a vestigal "FM TUNER " that nobody listens to anymore,
    where system control is a pre-pro with a lot more versitility than a mere receiver.
    Some get stuck on the receiver form factor, but a receiver should be a stepping stone.
    The only reason I have never gone to seperates is finances, my receiver has a great
    front end that was going to be a stepping stone, but the amp that I wanted to plug into it has become a casualty of circumstances
    If your receiver is okay you should never replace it, you should plug an amp into it, then
    later you can replace it with a pre-pro.
    Thats the idea, at least:1:
  • 09-01-2007, 05:53 AM
    westcott
    Lots of good suggestions and metaphors but I would suggest one more consideration.

    You really need a bigger room, or at least one with better dimensions. A 10' x 10' room is square, and in the audio world creates a lot of audio problems from the get go.

    And because of its small size, it has probably forced you to sit against the back wall. Another audiophile no no.

    Your speakers are probably pushed against the rear and side walls, another no no.

    You have rear surrounds that are probably in the back corners of the room, placed extremely close and a rear surround that probably is extremely close or dispersing sound over your head, and away from you.

    Lots of things that make your room a real nightmare to calibrate and tame.

    More is not always better in your situation, and so, seven speakers in such a small space also creates a muddied sound due to room loading and having so many reflective surfaces so close together.

    You could buy much nicer speakers but you will never overcome the problems outlined above without a larger room.

    If a larger room, preferably rectangular in shape is not available, I would suggest a 3.1 system at most, sitting away from the back wall, acoustic panels\bass traps in ALL the corners at a minimum and switching to some very nice monitor\bookshelf speakers placed away from the wall and closer to the listener and get a low distortion subwoofer, possibly one with servo feedback to really help reduce distortion created by the room and the subwoofer. Taking the other speakers bass output out of the picture will really help in a small room so that the subwoofer can take over. If it is carefully placed, it can make a big difference.

    If you want to know what good speakers are, you will probably find that the better speakers are only available through a dealer and not at a BB or CC. It will take some homework but if you are serious about getting better sound, a dealer will be a great source for auditioning. Not all dealers are set up properly either so keep the things I mentioned above in mind when auditioning. If there room is too small, square, seating is against the back wall or the speakers are jammed up against the walls, you may not get a true picture of what the speakers are truly capable of.

    Good luck and let us know if we can be of any further assistance. If you do decide to make some changes, come back and let us know what you decide. Photos are always a big help.