-
Remedial reading anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
First, nobody and no where in any post did anyone say just pop in any old speaker into the wall and walk away.
Given your complete, unexpurgated and rather cursory response to HAVICs inquiry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TtT
If you are speaking of a baffle wall, that will increase bass tremedously, and get rid of some modes and nodes in the room. THX actually recommends this for THX certified rooms. I would not recommend boxing the speakers, that would create resonances that are undesireable. If you build a wall with speaker cutouts for the left, center, and right speakers with acoustical foam surrounding the speakers, you will get pretty good sound.
Simply do this, do that and "...you will get pretty good sound..."A veritable panacea; a cure-all and then some! Where are the caveats for design considerations, speaker suitability or the need for electronic and/or mechanical tweeking? Sorry, if I missed something...oh, no...actually I didn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TtT
Secondly, all of these comments regarding THX Bafflettes apply ONLY to THX commercial theaters.
Gee, where did I hear that before? Oh, yeah right here in post #73:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RL
...an infinite baflle/baffle wall/Bafflette is a requirement for THX certification of commercial venues...
I thought I made that abundantly clear, apparently you seem most comfortable pointing out the bleedin' obvious...However, it isn't a REQUIREMENT fot HT...now is it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TtT
If the poster decides it will cost too much money, and require too much construction, he still doesn't have to abandon his vision as RL instructs him to do(a defeatist perspective IMO)
And here's whwere the remedial reading would play a part...the words used were:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RL
Unfortunately, those issues must sometimes take a back seat when dealing with quality audio reproduction... in the final analysis, you may simply be better off with the loudspeakers positioned "proud" in respect to that of the projection screen.
And in the "...feels like deja-vu all over again..." dept, from post #9(...number 9...number 9...number 9...):
Quote:
Originally Posted by RL
After posting my caveats, I said: In either case, the last thing you want to do is go through the hassles of construction in the name of aesthetics and/or room decor, only to wind up needing further room treatments such as free-standing bass traps and the like.
It's a pity that you see an alternate realist POV as defeatist...
As to the reast of your blather...it seems to be much more complex than your initial response would indicate...(see second quote above)
Then, of course, back to the bleedin' obvious:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TtT
Anyone who has worked ten seconds with a preforated screen knows that whatever reflections are behind the screen, without any kind of acoustical control, ends up in front of the screen out of time, and with a spread which creates diffusion on the other side. You will have reflection coming from the sides of the screen, under the screen, and right through it, all out of time with the direct output of the speaker. This will be great for the speakers frequency response at the ears. This may be the easiest to build, but creates more acoustical problems than just flush mounting his speakers. Not good advice PERIOD!.
As Dr. Watson oftimes said "No sh!t, Sherlock!"...HAVIC's got what he's got...my suggestion for screen and scrim "creates" nothing that isn't already there, which is why I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RL
If you really like your PSBs, you can position them where they will sound best and hang the screen between and forward of them...for a sort of "psuedo-wall" sense of continuity, just flank it with acoustically-transparent scrim and voila! HT that looks aesthetically pleasing...sorta' like a retro movie theatre...little muss, little fuss...and no design/construction to contend with or demolition should the whole idea not seem quite the ticket after-the-fact.
What part of THAT didn't you quite comprehend...you HAVE TO read and understand ALL the words, not just the one's that strike your fancy...
In pea soup, dense is good...in people not so much...
jimHJJ(...you should come with crackers...)
-
Give it up loser, this post is cooked, your advice sucked, and this issue is over. You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen, and taking into consideration the moire effect, and image losses. Just any old preforated screen just don't cut it.
-
Hmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
You don't put a preforated screen out in space without acoustical control behind the screen
Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?
Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.
jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
Anyone want to try to make sense out of THAT one?
Given the fact that light and sound, which are both waves, can exhibit similar behavioral patterns, two superimposed patterns can can create a third, unwanted element at the point of intersection. With light, these can be seen as light or dark areas forming larger unwanted patterns and resolution abnormalities; in sound, intermodulation distortions and the like. Any interlacing of two repetitive patterns(or waves) can cause the phenomenon. Even in ostensibly single, stand alone units, e.g. poorly designed CRTs, can exhibit the problem if the pixel/raster ratio are not properly considered and adjusted for. Careful choice of both projector AND screen vis a' vis the propensity to moire' can be minimized by avoidance of similar spatial repetition ratio between the resolution of the projector and of the perforation density of the screen material...some screen maufacturers avoid the issue entirely by using a woven material, whose natural warp and woof allow for an excellent degree of reflectivity, while providing acoustical transparency and avoiding the pitfalls of machine-made perforations.
jimHJJ(...just thought I'd clear up any misunderstanding...)
Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.
-
Yes, there is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Isn't there an acoustically invisible material he could use to make a wall? The speakers could just hide behind it? Is this off the wall? (no pun intended)
As mentioned earlier, it's referred to as 'scrim' in the theatrical AND upholstery trade...A very fine mesh of a fabric(sort of gauze-y, but not quite), usually black, which, under the proper lighting conditions, hides all that is behind it...You may find some fixed to the underside of your chairs and sofas where it is used as a dust-block...
jimHJJ(...there are many solutions, some simpler than others...)
-
Sorry to disappoint dipwad...
...any first-year art student is acquainted with moire' patterns, ain't nothin' new or particularly specific to HT...actually nowadays has more to do with digital reproduction of half-tones...in fact anyone who has looked through fenceposts, played with window screens or has worn polarized glasses is familiar with the concept...the mechanics and geometry are what they are...the words are mine, as anyone who reads my postings with regularity can plainly see...that is, anyone with intelligence.
As I've previously stated, I've forgotten more, about more things, than the likes of you will ever know...
jimHJJ(...you are beyond your ken...and it's gonna' be sooo cool...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
Nice quote from a website. I am sure this didn't just pop outta yer head. You haven't even addressed the sound issues, but I am sure you'll quote another website for that. Genius, pure genius.
From what I have seen, when RL is qoting a website, he typically states that fact, or posts a link to the supporting verbage.
To say "I am sure this didn't just pop...." means you do not know for a fact one way or the other if this is direct or quote.
Why is it you are acting in this fashion? While I admit I have not been here much, I do not understand why it is a moderator is allowed to attack a poster in the manner you have shown over this entire thread.
Is there some history here that I am unaware of? Is this like that Star Trek episode with Loci??
This was actually one of the primary reasons I walked away from here..it is sad to see it has not changed.
Cheers, John
-
1 Attachment(s)
Can't believe it is still going on...
I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.
However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...
In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.
In the picture the following stands for the letters.
A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVIC
I'm thinking about how a false wall would effect the audio sound?
Thanks
Greg
Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?
rw
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?
rw
I think it's a great idea. If the false wall is made of that thin mesh-like material that sounds goes right through, won't this work? Are there problems with this?
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVIC
I actually stopped reading as a lot of this talk has been above my head. I do know if this a route I go I will most likely need to hire a pro. I may decide to not use the false wall and see how everything looks and if it bothers me I'll make the decision based on by a few pro audio shops in my area and analyzing what they told me with you guys.
However I did notice several people did not understand exactly what I was looking to do well here it is...
In the picture the outerbox is the original room (nothing is to actual size), this is from a top view.
In the picture the following stands for the letters.
A = my tower speakers
B= The False wall ( from floor to ceiling)
C= The Front Projector
D= The Screen mounted on the false wall
You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.
With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.
This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.
good luck :)
dan
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.
With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.
This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.
good luck :)
dan
I like your ideas. You got my gears turning now.
-
Very curious...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Guys, do we have any more comments to add to Greg's question?
rw
...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?
Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.
Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...
jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?
I've yet to, but there's always a first time. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant?
No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.
Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.
rw
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...are we to surmise that the seemingly gentle question you have posed is simply preparation for the thread to be locked?
Other than the fact that HAVICs question had been addressed within the first few posts, do you feel the subsequent issues that have been raised are somehow irrelevant? That they will benefit no one else but the initial poster? I don't think that to be the case. Has anyone learned anything? Have a few been prompted to research the subject matter? Hopefully so.
Even though I have my suspicions as to why, personally I'm quite saddened by the lack of general participation in the thread and/or any meaningful discussion of those issues even on the most elemental level...like I said, it ain't rocket science, no magic, no voodoo...just some basic familiarity with a few facets of the subject matter and the application of a little common sense...
jimHJJ(...then again, that's just me...)
I've tried to look into it. But mostly there was a lot of pure anger in this thread. I wasn't sure who was right in what way. It was really very hard for me to come to a conclusion.
Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.
-
Just as long...
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I've yet to, but there's always a first time. :)
No, and I sometimes contribute to threads with tangential comments. This one, however, is beginning to draw smoke from the empennage. I just kicked the rudder to stop the spin.
Perhaps you might like to open a new thread regarding perforated screens.
rw
...as you make note of who exactly brought the matches...I thought they were contraband on airplanes these days...
BTW, I could care less about screens perforated or otherwise...I'm not the one who uttered the magical mystery word: moire'...
jimHJJ(...P.S. it's only tee-vee...)
-
Well then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
...there was a lot of pure anger in this thread...
...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Can you fill us in on the things we would need to know? Are there problems with his idea?
Please talk slow, so even I can follow.
I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.
If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.
You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...
jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...my suggestion would be to ignore the ageist and otherwise inflammatory comments and look to the info provided...
I stand by what I have already posted re:alteration of room size and equipment choices...links have been provided for most of what anyone REALLY needs to know...there are speakers more suited to certain situations, otherwise why would the manufacturers build them? It's examples such as that, where common sense wins hands-down over any "specialized" knowledge...Think this through with me, doesn't it simply make more sense to use "something" designed for a specific application...at least you have some sort of "base" to work from rather than trying to overcome inherent design features/flaws? Square peg, round hole/silk purse, sow's ear...that sort of thing.
If you have any specific questions, I'll be happy to attempt address them even though I'm only a part-time musician/semi-serious recordist/audio enthusiast and purport to be no "exspurt" in anything in particular and simply quite inquisitive about nearly everything.
You can Google nearly everything and I strongly encourage this practice, just be forewarned to investgate a cross-section of sites. There will be a certain percentage of the content that will be wrong or misleading...there will also be some inherent facts that will usually show up in all or many of them...odds are this category will contain more of the truth. In fact you can do "false wall" and this thread(along with another at another site) will pop-up within the first few choices. Curious that there is very little re: the subject as it relates to audio...I'd guess there isn't a big call for such among the average HT buff...
jimHJJ(...I wonder why...)
Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.
Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?
-
In my limited experience...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Google is a constant companion in my line of work. You can find almost anything. I will, and have checked there also.
Will the mesh false wall change the sound much? Can it be adjusted for? Are different speakers & amps better than others for this?
...the finer gauge should have little or no real impact on the sound produced...heavier fabrics certainly will affect the treble, just how much will depend on the circumstances...maybe a little tweek on the tone control or EQ(if so equipped) might be the answer. Have someone talk through a piece of cheesecloth, then through a flannel shirt. That should give you some idea of the effect.
I'd opt for speakers I like in their naked state...again, that "baseline" or jumping-off point should be as neutral as possible IMO...some units do have built-in controls that will be useful for placement/proximity issues. Same with amps...do you really want speakers or an amp with a "hot" top end? How "hot" should it be? Should it be "hot" at all? I realize it offends some of the more "purist"/golden-eared among us, but that's what tone controls(and EQs) are for. Unless of course a big part of your involvement with the hobby is the constant search for the "grail" in any or all of it's manifestations.
Then of course, there are multi-channel processors...which are fairly pricey...at the outset, simply listening for and identifying faults would be my first order of business...always apply the K.I.S.S. principle...
jimHJJ(...Keep It Super Simple or for some folks Keep It Simple Stupid...)
-
OK, I know that I am not supposed to assume, but if the speakers are already behind the wall before I run my YPAO, shouldn't it take any high end loss into it's function? So as long as it's not a huge loss of high end then it should come out more or less the same?
Thanks for the help.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
You've already got the tower speakers (and the rest of the audio system, I presume)...I'd look into getting the scrim cloth type wall to put your speakers and audio equipment behind. Like GMichael had advised.
With the right room lighting...you can choose to either keep the "theater wall" black as can be (which will be a nice plus for the projector screen! Spend the extra money on a quality screen here). But...with the right lighting...you could choose to keep everything hidden...or you can choose to shine a light on the audio rack...or speakers. You know...the way Disney (and other amusement parks) "show you" where the speakers are mounted. They usually go thru this presentation before the featured show begins.
This shouldn't mess with any imaging problems (or placement problems) with your existing tower speakers. Plus...you won't have to (nor do you need to) build a false wall in your home.
good luck :)
dan
Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?
Sigh...here I go again..
If ya take some spotlights, and a plc, you could give IMAX a run..but ya'd still need to get some horns and 12 kilowatts of power.
As to the false wall..don't make it solid. To do so can invoke a group delay in the bass. I explain.
Back in '79, I ran a system in a bar/resteraunt (sp?), during the disco heyday. The layout of the club was, it had a open area in the front where tables were removed,a half height wall with two walk through openings. I'd setup my system (4 K horns with 300watts times 4) on the dance side of the wall, mixer and tables on the other.
When I first started to mix, I found that there was a big delay between the program in the left headphone, and the bass beat I heard in the other ear. It ran about 100 milliseconds, big enough to cause double beat mixes..the bane of all DJ's.
In investigating this, I found that as I walked through the doorway, or stuck my head through the opening in the wall, the delay went away..it was caused by the propagation of the sound through the remaining wall opening, which suprisingly enough, was over 60% clear. Strange..
If you place subs on the other side of a hard half wall, you will find group delay of the bass. If you put the sub on your side, there will be group delay to the empty side, then again as it comes back..mud city.
Havic: Why cut the room size down so much?
Cheers, John
-
Just to be sure we're on the same page...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
OK, I know that I am not supposed to assume, but if the speakers are already behind the wall before I run my YPAO, shouldn't it take any high end loss into it's function? So as long as it's not a huge loss of high end then it should come out more or less the same?
Thanks for the help.
...if the "wall" is a sheer fabric one, there will probobly be little or no diff in the response seen by the mic and if there is, the Yammie processor should take it into account and adjust accordingly.
The only thing worth mentioning is the means by which the scrim material will be fashioned into the "wall". If suspended from the ceiling, piece of cake...if you plan on building a light framework of 1X2s or something like that, there is the remote risk that the measuring mic might "see" any obstruction(such as the individual support members) as a definciency in the loudspeaker's frequency response and unnecessarily overcompensate for it. This will only come into play IF the speakers are set back far enough behind the "wall" so that a support would actually block a line-of-sight(or in this case hearing) from the tweeter to the listening/measuring position. While the odds for this to happen are slim, the possibility is real and easily taken into account with a little pre-planning. Of course if the speaker's only obstruction is the fabric, the point is moot.
jimHJJ(...hope that helps...)
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...if the "wall" is a sheer fabric one, there will probobly be little or no diff in the response seen by the mic and if there is, the Yammie processor should take it into account and adjust accordingly.
The only thing worth mentioning is the means by which the scrim material will be fashioned into the "wall". If suspended from the ceiling, piece of cake...if you plan on building a light framework of 1X2s or something like that, there is the remote risk that the measuring mic might "see" any obstruction(such as the individual support members) as a definciency in the loudspeaker's frequency response and unnecessarily overcompensate for it. This will only come into play IF the speakers are set back far enough behind the "wall" so that a support would actually block a line-of-sight(or in this case hearing) from the tweeter to the listening/measuring position. While the odds for this to happen are slim, the possibility is real and easily taken into account with a little pre-planning. Of course if the speaker's only obstruction is the fabric, the point is moot.
jimHJJ(...hope that helps...)
Thanks, I'll keep this in mind durring my planning stages.
-
I think there was...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?
...some sort of server glitch around your timeframe...I had the same reaction roughly the same time...did a send and went nowhere except for a "page expired" message...hit refresh a couple of times and simply waited it out...ah, technology...
jimHJJ(...Luddite that I am...)
P.S. Nice to see some more input and questions all 'round...
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
Crap...where did my post go?? Why was it deleted?
Sigh...here I go again..
If ya take some spotlights, and a plc, you could give IMAX a run..but ya'd still need to get some horns and 12 kilowatts of power.
As to the false wall..don't make it solid. To do so can invoke a group delay in the bass. I explain.
.
Havic: Why cut the room size down so much?
Cheers, John
I haate when the sserver destroys a long winded post :mad: UGH
I wasn't trying to imply that havic would come up with a system that rivals an Imax theater...but trying to describe audio situations where many of us have experienced scrim fabric. When I think of scrim cloth...I think of theatrical plays...and sets. But I think we've all seen this set up in Imax type theaters as well.
I'd agree that there's no good reson to make a solid wall to mount the tower speakers. A scim from ceiling to floor would serve quite nice. Setting up the projection screen in front of the screen (hehe).
ok...things are getting (and have been) WAY more difficult than they need to be...I'm outa this thread>>>
nice to see you visit here jneutron...
dan
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
I wasn't trying to imply that havic would come up with a system that rivals an Imax theater...
Well then, where's the fun?? Volume should be juuust below the level where the screen becomes bluurry...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
nice to see you visit here jneutron...
dan
Thanks...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin
I haate when the sserver destroys a long winded post :mad: UGH
Again, thanks..I haven't been called long winded in a while, refreshing that is...;)
Cheers, John
|