Extending outputs

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  • 03-22-2008, 09:33 AM
    Bigmoney
    Extending outputs
    I am interested in the ps audio high current ultimate outlet. As you all know it only has two outputs. Would itg be possibly to use one output for my amp and connect a high quality surge strip to use use for mulitple low current componets from the one remaining output. Guess I am asking if I can connect a surge strip to increase the number of outputs.
  • 03-22-2008, 11:43 AM
    basite
    you can, but I'd recommend you to use a high quality stip. Without filters, surges, ...

    something like a Sun Leiste will do perfectly well...
  • 03-22-2008, 12:08 PM
    blackraven
    BM, those PS outlets list at $300, I'm just curious as to why you dont spend that money on a better CDP, speakers or sub? Of course, I'm asking this as a person who is very skeptical that a power outlet can make a dramatic difference in sound compared to a $75 surge supressor with an EFI/RF filter. You have a very nice system and it looks like it could benefit by upgrading your CDP instead of power conditioners.
  • 03-22-2008, 01:09 PM
    Feanor
    Yes ...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bigmoney
    I am interested in the ps audio high current ultimate outlet. As you all know it only has two outputs. Would itg be possibly to use one output for my amp and connect a high quality surge strip to use use for mulitple low current componets from the one remaining output. Guess I am asking if I can connect a surge strip to increase the number of outputs.

    You can use the Ultimate Outlet as you describe. I owned an earlier model UO and connected an extension to one of the outlets -- worked fine. I eventualy sold mine for reasons I allude to below.

    As I recall, one of the UO's claims is that it is no-current limiting, hence it might be valuable for power amps.

    The downside to the UO, especially for the money, is that you don't have any protection between the two or more components connected to it. There are plenty of decent surge protector/EMI-RFI filters that provide mutiple isolated outlets. The start at around $100, for example this Tripp Lite Isobar model, or my own Belkin PureAV PD60 that is available for around $300 and has many additional, useful features. They don't claim to be totally non-current limiting, but I've never had a problem.
  • 03-22-2008, 01:11 PM
    Ajani
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackraven
    BM, those PS outlets list at $300, I'm just curious as to why you dont spend that money on a better CDP, speakers or sub? Of course, I'm asking this as a person who is very skeptical that a power outlet can make a dramatic difference in sound compared to a $75 surge supressor with an EFI/RF filter. You have a very nice system and it looks like it could benefit by upgrading your CDP instead of power conditioners.

    I'll 2nd that... IMO, a new CD/Speakers/Sub sounds like a better use of money....
  • 03-22-2008, 02:33 PM
    blackraven
    I use a surge supressor with EMI/RF filter with 10 power outlets and 6000 joules of protection-cyberpower 1030HT. Paid $50 on ebay when they were selling for about$100. Now they can be found for $65-80.
  • 03-22-2008, 07:20 PM
    Bigmoney
    I agree that a cdp will make a larger difference. However my surge strip is not instead of a cdp but rather in addition to it. Reason being, I am using a ten year old dusty generic power strip.
  • 03-22-2008, 07:26 PM
    Bigmoney
    I assume it costed no more than 15 bucks or so. My amp is plugged directly into the wall. Therefore no surge protection. Say you had 200 dollars to spend on surge/ conditioning equipment what would you do. I would be willign to do up to 300 if the increase in money is justified. I thought the triplite proffessional aplications such as http://tripplite.com/products/produc...productID=2833 looked pretty good. No bells or whistles just protection, voltage regulation, and conditioning all for around 200. I am surprised you all discourage the UO, as it was stereophile product of the year. Also with great reviews.
  • 03-22-2008, 07:45 PM
    blackraven
    I'm just a skeptic when it comes to power conditioners. I believe that they work but I dont think that spending $200-300 for one is a good use of money for something that may not give you any significant increase in sound quality and when there are alot of cheaper products that will do just as good a job. I'd rather spend the money on music or something else.

    http://www.provantage.com/cyberpower...t~7CYPRO14.htm
  • 03-23-2008, 02:35 AM
    Feanor
    I'm with you, B/R
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by blackraven
    I'm just a skeptic when it comes to power conditioners. I believe that they work but I dont think that spending $200-300 for one is a good use of money for something that may not give you any significant increase in sound quality and when there are alot of cheaper products that will do just as good a job. I'd rather spend the money on music or something else.

    http://www.provantage.com/cyberpower...t~7CYPRO14.htm

    That Provantage unit looks like great value to me.

    I have never heard any difference from the use of filters, but I might be lucky by having a benign environment. But surge protection is a reasonable precaution on valuable equipment and so is EMI/RFI protection provided one doesn't spend a fortune.

    In addition to the Belkin mentioned above, (which also has the advantage of sequential, delayed on/off switching), I use shield power cords on digital components including my music computer; in no case have I spent more than $60 on a power cord. And I use ferrite traps; these are useful protection only up to 0.5MHz but are very cheap.

    To a person building a system on a limited budget, I recommend not spending a lot of money on power conditioning, power cords, or even cables and interconnects -- bottom line is they will not do as much for your system as basic component upgrades.
  • 03-23-2008, 04:49 AM
    Bigmoney
    What beneift do the ferrit traps provide. How do you use them and can the really make a difference for under a dollar each!!! Definately intriguing.
  • 03-23-2008, 07:10 AM
    bobsticks
    I've been using ferret traps for years. I haven't noticed any overall sonic disadvantages (in re: constrained upper frequencies) but there is a disconcerting snapping sound on occasion. I don't recommend any of the alloy models, go with stainless steel lest the input break the tines.
  • 03-23-2008, 07:43 AM
    Bigmoney
    Do they have advantages??
  • 03-23-2008, 01:57 PM
    blackraven
    BM, If you had several thousand dollars invested in your system and money to burn I would say go for all the cables and power conditioners costing hundreds of dollars. But the cost benefit ratio of most of these things is low. I understand you wanting to tweak your system as best as possible but the best use of your money would be to upgrade your equipment like CDP, and speakers. You have a very good system especially with the Rotel equipment which is audiophile quality (i hate using that term). Even your speakers are very good but speakers are one area where spending more money will return the most benefit in sound in your sytem. Up grading your CDP will return the next most benefit.
  • 03-23-2008, 02:37 PM
    Bigmoney
    Okay. I see where nobody disagrees. Speakers. I have come to the conclusion that the leasat controversial topic will provide the biggest improvement. Considering I have 1500 dollars worth of separates and only 600 worth of speakers, I think it may be time to upgrade the speakers. Many have said speakers should account for the majority of cost in your system. That being said I have a lot of catching up to do. Also, with better speakers I understand that tweas and other upgrades I make should be more apparent. I have concludded to order the cyberpower outlet strip, and look for a speaer upgrade on the used market. At what price point, new, should I look for to consider the purchase a worthwile upgrade. With my speakers being 600 new, I figure it makes sense to look for speaers costing atleast double that price MSRP. Any suggestions for speakers that would pair well with my rotel combo. I am kind of looking for a speaker that could be used without a subwoofer, so if good low frequency response can be achieved at my price point used it would definately incourage me to purchase the pair.
  • 03-23-2008, 04:08 PM
    blackraven
    I think that you could use about $1500 and above where you will see some big improvement in speakers. One last thing, good speakers will reveal weakensses in your source material. Poor recordings will sound worse but good recordings will sound great. They will also reveal weaknesses in your CDP as well. If your happy with your speakers for now, upgrade your CDP. If your unhappy with your sound which it sounds like your are, then go for speakers. I would audition any speakers your considering buying.
  • 03-23-2008, 04:12 PM
    Bigmoney
    How about the epos floorstanders. There are several models, a few used on audiogon. Seem like pretty good speakers from what I have heard.
  • 03-23-2008, 04:29 PM
    blackraven
    If you have the room, consider the Magnepan 1.6's. Or look for a used pair of PSB Synchrony Two's, Paradigm Studio 100's. I've never heard an Epos speaker, cant help you there.
  • 03-23-2008, 05:08 PM
    Bigmoney
    Hey. Side tracking for a second. I am about to buy the cyberpower 1030ht reccomended to me. It has ten outlets. I only need 5. I am wondering if the outlates are isolated to prevent cross contamination between components. I know of the tripplite isobar ultra with 6 outlets for the same price that has isolated filter banks. Which would you go for?
  • 03-23-2008, 06:44 PM
    blackraven
    Yes the individual outlets are isolated, it says so on the cyberpower web site. Both units will do the job. I like the extra outlets and the 6000 joule protection along with a life time warranty.
  • 03-23-2008, 10:18 PM
    hermanv
    In my opinion a powerline filter will provide more benefit than a surge suppressor in terms of audio quality.

    I'm a little surprised at the almost universal belief that quality audio gear can't survive the voltages present in a standard wall socket. MOV types of surge protectors actually generate noise, the MOV devices themselves look a lot like ceramic capacitors except possibly bigger.

    My main amp is plugged directly to the wall, my Levinson DAC is on a filter, not to keep noise from getting in, but rather to prevents it's digital circuits from feeding noise into my other gear.

    I'm curious what you end up with, how about a quick report on any sound quality changes when you're done?
  • 03-23-2008, 11:26 PM
    pixelthis
    I have one of those triangular monster power strips that I got on sale for a 100 bucks,
    works fine.
    A lot waste money on "conditioners", etc when a service call by an electrician would
    do a LOT more good.
    He could check your ground, your wiring, see if your HT room has a dedicated circuit,
    etc, and quote a price on a dedicated switchbox.
    A lot buy expensive power supplies like strips, conditioners, etc when their basic electrics are crud, and its kinda like putting a racing engine in a lawn tractor:1:
  • 03-24-2008, 10:50 AM
    blackraven
    Wait until you have a lightening strike and it wipes out thousands of dollars of equipment. My neighbor had that happen to him 2 years ago.
  • 03-24-2008, 11:47 AM
    hermanv
    Those power strips with "transient" protection would not have helped in a near lightning strike scenario. Many commercial boxes would also succumb, it is all but impossible to predict the energy released by a near miss. A direct hit; forget it, count your blessings if your home doesn't burn down.
  • 03-24-2008, 12:49 PM
    basite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    etc when a service call by an electrician would
    do a LOT more good.
    He could check your ground, your wiring, see if your HT room has a dedicated circuit,
    etc, and quote a price on a dedicated switchbox.
    A lot buy expensive power supplies like strips, conditioners, etc when their basic electrics are crud, and its kinda like putting a racing engine in a lawn tractor:1:


    of course, you could do that yourself too, and then save the money spent on the electrician...
    all it takes is a cheap multimeter...

    I've heard lot's of good things from these too:

    http://www.jenving.se/
    their mains blocks aren't too expensive...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
  • 03-24-2008, 07:48 PM
    PDN
    Hey, check out the Wiremold Power Strip at www.audioconnect.com-online store-power outlets. This is a hospital grade 15 or 20 amp 9 outlet power strip sold by Audio Connection, Verona, NJ. I use these with my PSAudio power ports when I need to plug in more then 2 components. It's not a surge suppressor but simply a high end power strip with no components to impede the current path to your components. Check it out and take a look at all of the items sold at this store. The owner, John Rutan, is a super fellow and owns a great hi-fi store in northern NJ.
  • 03-25-2008, 12:03 AM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by basite
    of course, you could do that yourself too, and then save the money spent on the electrician...
    all it takes is a cheap multimeter...

    I've heard lot's of good things from these too:

    http://www.jenving.se/
    their mains blocks aren't too expensive...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.


    I saw a book on sale in a grocery store, had a lot of info on wiring your house, putting in a light fixture, etc.
    Only problem is this stuff is DANGEROUS.
    Nobody needs to mess around with electricity unless they know what they are doing.


    AS for lighting strikes your average "lighting strike" is
    three billion electron volts

    If you have a power strip that can withstand THAT please tell me so I can buy one.
    MANUFACTURERS have a 100,000 dollar, etc "guarentee" against failure if you get hit,
    this is marketing, they KNOW theres no way their strip will surrive, but the chance of a hit is so small...:1:
  • 03-25-2008, 02:42 AM
    basite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    I saw a book on sale in a grocery store, had a lot of info on wiring your house, putting in a light fixture, etc.
    Only problem is this stuff is DANGEROUS.
    Nobody needs to mess around with electricity unless they know what they are doing.


    AS for lighting strikes your average "lighting strike" is
    three billion electron volts

    If you have a power strip that can withstand THAT please tell me so I can buy one.
    MANUFACTURERS have a 100,000 dollar, etc "guarentee" against failure if you get hit,
    this is marketing, they KNOW theres no way their strip will surrive, but the chance of a hit is so small...:1:


    cooking can be dangerous as well, yet we all cook ourselves, don't we?
    so is driving a car, or bike. Or gardening, or building something.
    what should we do? sit in our chairs and bore ourselves to death?

    with a little care, and indeed 'knowing what you're doing', there shouldn't be a problem at all. my dad has build our house himself, including installing all the electricity stuff, he ain't an electrician, in fact, he doesn't like doing that at all. But guess what, he's still alive and well, nothing ever happened to him.

    there has never been an electrician here, and yet we never had any problems at all.

    oh, and a monster power center should be able to handle the lightning strike, once read someone's experience (I even think it was here on AR), that his house was hit by a lightning strike. Luckily he had the monster thing, and his home theatre survived it. The monster thing died, due to a production fault, but he was given a new one FOR FREE.

    a PS audio power plant should also withstand a lightning strike, so will an Isotek.

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
  • 03-25-2008, 02:44 PM
    hermanv
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by basite
    oh, and a monster power center should be able to handle the lightning strike, once read someone's experience (I even think it was here on AR), that his house was hit by a lightning strike. Luckily he had the monster thing, and his home theatre survived it. The monster thing died, due to a production fault, but he was given a new one FOR FREE.

    a PS audio power plant should also withstand a lightning strike, so will an Isotek.

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.

    To survive a lightning strike both primary and secondary protection is needed. Primary protection is a lightning rod, a good Earth ground and probably heavy duty surge suppressors in your main electric distribution panel. The lightning rod people will tell you to run a #6 or bigger wire to the ground post, this is about 3 times bigger than the surge suppressor power cord or the house wiring ground. The peak currents from a strike are 10,000 Amps or more, and is why a power strip can't do the job. The 16 gauge power cord or the internal house ground wire is just not up to the task. Those surge suppressors are called secondary protection. Anyone who survived a strike with only a "standard" secondary surge suppressor was mainly lucky.

    I have a microwave oven, a series of timers on coffee pots and stoves a TV set and a host of other electronic devices. Chances are so do you. We don't put surge suppressors on every device because it's not really necessary. Yes the stereo cost more, but many surge suppressors do as much harm to sound quality as they do good for the smaller surges.

    So if you have a large financial investment in your system and you wish to protect it from lightning, get some high current surge suppressors installed in your distribution panel. If you live in a lightning prone area, get a lightning rod. After all that, a surge protection power strip will be up to the task.

    Many surge suppressors are rated in Joules, this sounds real scientific. 1 Joule is one watt second which is easier to understand, but doesn't sound as good to the marketing guys. So if your box was rated at 6,000 Joules, in theory it could handle 5,000 amps for 1.2 seconds.
  • 03-26-2008, 01:03 AM
    pixelthis
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by basite
    cooking can be dangerous as well, yet we all cook ourselves, don't we?
    so is driving a car, or bike. Or gardening, or building something.
    what should we do? sit in our chairs and bore ourselves to death?

    with a little care, and indeed 'knowing what you're doing', there shouldn't be a problem at all. my dad has build our house himself, including installing all the electricity stuff, he ain't an electrician, in fact, he doesn't like doing that at all. But guess what, he's still alive and well, nothing ever happened to him.

    there has never been an electrician here, and yet we never had any problems at all.

    oh, and a monster power center should be able to handle the lightning strike, once read someone's experience (I even think it was here on AR), that his house was hit by a lightning strike. Luckily he had the monster thing, and his home theatre survived it. The monster thing died, due to a production fault, but he was given a new one FOR FREE.

    a PS audio power plant should also withstand a lightning strike, so will an Isotek.

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.

    You dont "know" what kind of quality job your father did...
    BECAUSE YOU ARENT AN ELECTRICIAN.
    I bought a house in 2003, one of the stipulations was that an electrician be paid to fix
    all of the crap that the amateur did to it when he remodeled the house.
    I needed a new box, the ground didnt exist(at all) and half of the plugs didnt work.
    AND yes other forms of endevour are "dangerous" but electricity is in a league
    of its own.
    Get 10,000 volts and thats IT, you wont make it to the hospital.
    THE 30,000 volts in a crt tv set is surrvivable because that current is created by trading off amps.
    The reason a 12 volt car battery hurts so much is that most have 400 to 600 amps.
    And when you hit a powerline you not only get 10,000 volts, you get however many amps that are going through at the time
    the fact that you and your family surrived yours fathers guesswork wiring job is
    proof that god looks over idiots.
    How about open heart surgery? Ever try any of that?:1:
  • 03-26-2008, 01:08 AM
    pixelthis
    One little story, I used to work in an airport.
    THE SMALL PLANES in the commuter line used APC power units to get cranked.
    These were plugged into 250 volt outlets with 50 amps of current.
    A worker there, on a dare , stuck a SCREWDRIVER into one one day, melted
    the damn thing, and damn near melted HIM , and he was holding a plastic handle,
    but it was damp from dew, and thats ALL it took.:1:
  • 03-26-2008, 03:13 AM
    basite
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    You dont "know" what kind of quality job your father did...
    BECAUSE YOU ARENT AN ELECTRICIAN.
    I bought a house in 2003, one of the stipulations was that an electrician be paid to fix
    all of the crap that the amateur did to it when he remodeled the house.
    I needed a new box, the ground didnt exist(at all) and half of the plugs didnt work.
    AND yes other forms of endevour are "dangerous" but electricity is in a league
    of its own.
    Get 10,000 volts and thats IT, you wont make it to the hospital.
    THE 30,000 volts in a crt tv set is surrvivable because that current is created by trading off amps.
    The reason a 12 volt car battery hurts so much is that most have 400 to 600 amps.
    And when you hit a powerline you not only get 10,000 volts, you get however many amps that are going through at the time
    the fact that you and your family surrived yours fathers guesswork wiring job is
    proof that god looks over idiots.
    How about open heart surgery? Ever try any of that?:1:


    I know that I know better than you what my father did.

    No, I'm not an electrician, but I do know quite alot about it. Saying my dad's 'guesswork' is amateurish is pure nonsense, maybe you are to stupid to realize that people can do more than what they're trained for, but I certainly am not. My dad studied electro mechanics, so he does know 'a little' about electronics.

    when I hear all the people here telling about how crappy their electricity is, and that they hear 'noise' through their stereo when the daughter is using her hairdryer in the bathroom I ask myself if there actually is someone in the entire USA that even deserves the title of 'electrician'. We've never had that problem here! Ever!
    The fuses never jump here unless there is a good reason for it (like a short circuit, caused by mom's steaming iron, because that broke down, but she has a new one now, so that's not a problem too anymore...)

    I guess that proves that my father happens to do a better job than some of the electricians there.

    and you don't need to tell me that a car battery is dangerous because it puts out 400-600 amperes, I ALREADY KNOW THAT. I LEARN STUFF TOO.

    But hey, I can't blame you, morons like you keep the economy alive, because you're so afraid to do something yourself that you need someone else to do it for you. 'god' should better look after you...

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
  • 03-26-2008, 04:01 AM
    Brett A
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    You dont "know" what kind of quality job your father did...BECAUSE YOU ARENT AN ELECTRICIAN.

    Just because electricity is dangerous, doesn't mean every non-electrician in proximity to it is an idiot.

    If you are truly safety minded, careful, and thorough, you can do your own basic home wiring projects. Once you educate yourself of the science, materials, and codes, it's really very easy.

    I ran a dedicated circuit for my system. (as well as a few other similar projects.) Before I did any work in my house, I spent about a month reading and asking questions of my electrician friend.

    I ran a 20amp circuit with one commercial duplex outlet to its own breaker ---all for about $30 and two hours of my time. The difference to the sound was noticeable and an important improvement.
  • 03-26-2008, 09:47 AM
    blackraven
    Hmm, I guess I'm a walking dead person because I got Zapped by a 50,000 volt ignition coil back in 1979 when I use to Hot Rod volkswagon beetles. Its amperage that kills although high voltage can kill as well. And people do survive lightening strikes occasionaly, as I've taken care of a few patients in my 22yrs as an emergency medicine physician. Hell, Lee Trevino the Senior Pro Golfer was struck twice by lightening and survived.

    And Basite, I agree with you about hearing noise from the hair dryer. I'm not saying it cant happen, but in all my years of not using an RF and EFI filter, I have never heard any noise from other electrical equipment and niether have any of my friends who are into audio.
  • 03-26-2008, 10:07 AM
    Luvin Da Blues
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pixelthis
    The reason a 12 volt car battery hurts so much is that most have 400 to 600 amps.
    And when you hit a powerline you not only get 10,000 volts, you get however many amps that are going through at the time


    Here we go again, just 'cause a battery can output 400-600 amps doesn't mean it does all the time. It is all dependent on the load presented to the circuit. Does your car radio use 400 amps, the headlamps?? If you hit a power line you are NOT going to get all the current that is in the power line only what your body will allow to pass with 10,000 volts, this will be less with a lesser voltage and visa versa, if this is 5milliamps or more it's gunna hurt or even kill. That's why they set GFCI receptacles at 5 milliamps

    And yes, I am an electrician, have been for over 20 years.
  • 03-26-2008, 10:12 AM
    Luvin Da Blues
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brett A
    Just because electricity is dangerous, doesn't mean every non-electrician in proximity to it is an idiot.

    If you are truly safety minded, careful, and thorough, you can do your own basic home wiring projects. Once you educate yourself of the science, materials, and codes, it's really very easy.

    I ran a dedicated circuit for my system. (as well as a few other similar projects.) Before I did any work in my house, I spent about a month reading and asking questions of my electrician friend.

    I ran a 20amp circuit with one commercial duplex outlet to its own breaker ---all for about $30 and two hours of my time. The difference to the sound was noticeable and an important improvement.

    Yep, residential wiring is about as basic as you can get. There is no reason anyone with half a brain can't do their own electrical work if they learn a little first and take their time to do it right. There are numerous instructional books and videos for homeowners.