DTS Music

[Wireworm5]

As a follow up to a previous thread. DTS dvd's I have that offer exceptional sound.

Music Concerts
Porcupine Tree- Arriving Somewhere (the best I've got)
Kitaro- Live at Yakushiji
Blue Man Group- Complex Tour, 3 songs B side
Peter Gabriel- Growing Up
Heart- Live in Seattle
Blackmore's Night- Castles & Dreams
Red Hot Chili Peppers- Off the Map

Movies
Die Hard- Box Set
Rambo- Part 1 & 2
Pearl Harbor
Once Upon a Time in the West
James Bond- Die Another Day
Collateral
The Final Countdown
Sacred Planet
March of the Penguins
Thw Siege
U-571
Gladiator
Kingdom of Heaven
Predator

[nightflier]

I think the general sentiment is that DTS sound a touch better than DD with regular DVDs. I know that's certainly the case in my system (watched the 5th element in DTS this past weekend to demo it for friends). To my ears DTS sounds more airy, more focused, and the dialog is clearer while the bass is tighter. If only all DVDs had both formats built in, then I wouldn't have to futs with my pre/pro every time I switch between the two formats.

Come to think of it, why don't all movies offer both DTS and DD?

[PeruvianSkies]

As a follow up to a previous thread. DTS dvd's I have that offer exceptional sound.

Music Concerts
Porcupine Tree- Arriving Somewhere (the best I've got)
Kitaro- Live at Yakushiji
Blue Man Group- Complex Tour, 3 songs B side
Peter Gabriel- Growing Up
Heart- Live in Seattle
Blackmore's Night- Castles & Dreams
Red Hot Chili Peppers- Off the Map

Movies
Die Hard- Box Set
Rambo- Part 1 & 2
Pearl Harbor
Once Upon a Time in the West
James Bond- Die Another Day
Collateral
The Final Countdown
Sacred Planet
March of the Penguins
Thw Siege
U-571
Gladiator
Kingdom of Heaven
Predator

MARCH OF THE PENGUINS is in DTS? News to me.

[PeruvianSkies]

Come to think of it, why don't all movies offer both DTS and DD?

Compression. Studio support. Laziness.

In the early days of DVD, you had to buy a separate DTS edition of most titles, especially from Universal, who embraced the format. Often times Laserdisc titles that were in DTS were transferred over to DVD. It's sad that many studios did not support DTS as they did on Laser, like MGM, Sony, Warner, and Disney. DTS took up a lot more room on the disc and especially before dual-layer it was hard to get a less compressed disc with both audio formats that would cause the picture quality to suffer. Now with dual-layer and better compression there should be a standard to have both formats.

[Wireworm5]

MARCH OF THE PENGUINS is in DTS? News to me.

I stand corrected, good to see someone reads my posts. Throw in Pink Floyd- DSOTM on dts dvd, I omitted that one.

Some of the movies I listed are Special Edition and the dts is not available on the regular version.

Dolby is pretty much standard on movies. I guess they figure most people have Dolby receivers. Not everyone has dts however and requires additional disc space. So they can charge a premium price for people who want dts. Or they can sell two copies, once people realize their version doesn't have dts.

There are some very good Digital Dolby recordings that are as good as DTS. The ones that come to mind are:

Tora Tora Tora-- Special Edition, THX certified
Star Wars- remasters 4, 5, 6
Pink Floyd- Pulse
AC/DC- Live in Donington
Joe Satriani- Live in San Francisco

[PeruvianSkies]

There are some very good Digital Dolby recordings that are as good as DTS. The ones that come to mind are:

Tora Tora Tora-- Special Edition, THX certified
Star Wars- remasters 4, 5, 6
Pink Floyd- Pulse
AC/DC- Live in Donington
Joe Satriani- Live in San Francisco

How can you say that when there isn't a DTS counterpart to compare these to?

[nightflier]

There are some very good Digital Dolby recordings that are as good as DTS. The ones that come to mind are:

Tora Tora Tora-- Special Edition, THX certified
Star Wars- remasters 4, 5, 6
Pink Floyd- Pulse
AC/DC- Live in Donington
Joe Satriani- Live in San Francisco

I've got Tora, StarWars, and PF Pulse, and must say that their soundtracks aren't up to DTS on my system. They're good, but I would still prefer DTS. I agree with PeruvianSkies, though, that there's no way we'll ever be able to compare the two.

For a really good comparison between the two (that is if your receiver can do both formats) check out Master & Commander and Behind Enemy Lines. These have some excellent fly-by, bullet-signing, explosion, and atmosphere effects that sound very different between the two formats. The beauty with DVD is that you can pause & rewind any scene and switch sound formats with a few clicks of the remote. On another note, the LOTR extended DVDs are wayyy better in DTS-ES 6.1 than in DD-EX. I know these vary a bit, but almost everyone I know prefers the the DTS soundtrack. Besides, why would you sit through a movie like that and opt for less enjoyable sound?

Hopefully this format misery will go away once a standard or compromise is arrived at between the HD-DVD & BluRay camps, since these disks have plenty of room for DTS and even better sound formats. Let's hope the studios don't make the same mistake as they did with standard DVDs by leaving one format out.

Also, is there really any difference between 754 kbps and 1509 kbps DTS?

[PeruvianSkies]

Also, is there really any difference between 754 kbps and 1509 kbps DTS?

Oh my goodness YES YES YES! Fuller, deeper, richer, more fidelity, more dynamics, better bass response, more life-like. I have the import full bit-rate edition of HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS that puts most regular DTS discs to shame! Even the basic DTS edition of the film. MASTER AND COMMANDER is a superb DTS disc, even if it's not full bit-rate. Some of the earlier Universal DTS-only discs were full bit-rate, like OUT OF SIGHT, THE PEACEMAKER, WATERWORLD, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, etc. Most of my full bit-rate discs are imports like:

THE CELL, WINDTALKERS, and HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS.

Also, the US has a few like uncut LETHAL WEAPON 1-3, TWISTER, QUEEN: LIVE AT WEBLEY & THE BOWL.

[Wireworm5]

How can you say that when there isn't a DTS counterpart to compare these to?

I say that cause Dolby wants to make money too, and I'm an experienced listener.
In the past I've put down Dolby as being sub-standard to dts. But Dolby is capable of a high standard as well. However that's not what you get on most dvd's.
When I first played AC/DC live at Donington, of course I was dissappointed it wasn't in dts. However I was shocked how good the Digital Dolby was, way better than I expected. And I'm forced to re-evaluate my negative opinion of Dolby.
No, I haven't done a direct comparison but IMO Digital Dolby when done right is in the same ballpark as dts. Given a choice though, I'm in the DTS camp for the reasons mentioned above.

[Woochifer]

I think the general sentiment is that DTS sound a touch better than DD with regular DVDs. I know that's certainly the case in my system (watched the 5th element in DTS this past weekend to demo it for friends). To my ears DTS sounds more airy, more focused, and the dialog is clearer while the bass is tighter. If only all DVDs had both formats built in, then I wouldn't have to futs with my pre/pro every time I switch between the two formats.

Come to think of it, why don't all movies offer both DTS and DD?

The primary reason is that DD is one of the two mandatory audio formats for DVD (the other is uncompressed PCM), whereas DTS is strictly optional. DVD players are required to decode DD and PCM, yet most DVD players do not include internal DTS decoders.

Plus, the adoption of DTS didn't really spread beyond Universal (which is a minority owner of DTS) until they came up with the half-bitrate version. Otherwise, the full bitrate version of DTS simply took up too much disc space to be practical for most disc releases. It's actually a minor miracle that DTS has achieved widespread hardware support with processors/receivers, considering that it constitutes a relatively low percentage of the titles in release.

As for direct comparisons between the two of them, it's not always apples-to-apples. A lot of the earlier DTS tracks were encoded at the full 1.5k bitrate; and until about about 2002 all of the DTS soundtracks had to be encoded in-house by DTS. This meant that the soundtracks were not encoded at the same time as the DD track, and not always from the same printmaster, leaving a lot of variables open. Even now, the DD and DTS tracks are not always encoded at the same time or from the same master source.

If you want to do a valid DD/DTS comparison, where the format is the primary variable, you should try out the Lethal Weapon director's cut series, Interview With The Vampire, or Twister. These DVDs feature full bitrate DD and DTS encodes that Warner did simultaneously from the same printmaster and authored to allow for on-the-fly soundtrack switching (you do need to use a SPL meter though to verify that your processor plays them back at the same level). In these comparisons, DTS' advantage in audio quality seems less audible than on some other titles.

I'll agree that DTS can produce a more precise and spacious sound, but a lot of this can also greatly depend on the original soundtrack itself. For example, with Jaws and Lawrence of Arabia, the DD and DTS tracks basically sound identical due to the relatively low fidelity of the original source. With DD, they channel join the high frequencies and the disc authors frequently apply a dialog normalization offset, both of which make the DD track less-than-transparent to the original source. DTS is a more scalable format, but it's still highly compressed. FWIW, Sir Terrence has said that a 1.5k DTS encode is virtually transparent to the mixing board feed in his listenings -- very impressive for a 5.1 source that uses the same bitrate as CD audio.

For anyone who's interested in DTS music discs, DTS Entertainment is currently having a buy two-get one free sale on their 5.1 music discs. It's been a while since DTS issued any new titles, so unfortunately this might an inventory clearance. Several titles have already been reduced to $12. The DVD-A titles from DTS Entertainment in particular are worth trying out, even if you don't own a DVD-A player, because they include a DVD-video compatible layer with a 1.5k DTS track and a high res two-channel PCM track often encoded at 48/24 or 96/24 resolution.

http://www.dtsonline.com/shopping/catalogue/music.php

[PeruvianSkies]

Dolby Digital 5.1 mix that I really felt completely happy with is APOCALYPSE NOW REDUX and there are several Dolby Digital 5.1 and even stereo/surround mixes on Laserdisc that are better than the DVD mix, for example SILENCE OF THE LAMBS Criterion Edition Laser and the fullness on the ROBOCOP laser mix. Also, the STAR WARS original trilogy THX certified had some great depth as well.

[nightflier]

It's actually a minor miracle that DTS has achieved widespread hardware support with processors/receivers, considering that it constitutes a relatively low percentage of the titles in release.

I'm sure it's been asked before, but doesn't this also have to do with the quality of the decoder? I can't imagine that most basic DVD players will have a decent decoder compared to what's inside even the average receiver. On my system, though, I do get very good sound out my Sony DVD player when I'm using the analog outs (although I do have to adjust the volume up quite a bit), so I guess that means my DVD player is probably fairly capable in decoding DTS.

You do need to use a SPL meter though to verify that your processor plays them back at the same level. In these comparisons, DTS' advantage in audio quality seems less audible than on some other titles.

That brings up a good point. I'd been wondering if the reason my DD didn't sound as good was because I didn't configure my gear right. I know that if I change a few things in my pre/pro's settings, the DD sound will improve. However, the DTS sound is still preferable to my ears. If only I could save each set of settings for each sound format.

[Woochifer]

I'm sure it's been asked before, but doesn't this also have to do with the quality of the decoder? I can't imagine that most basic DVD players will have a decent decoder compared to what's inside even the average receiver. On my system, though, I do get very good sound out my Sony DVD player when I'm using the analog outs (although I do have to adjust the volume up quite a bit), so I guess that means my DVD player is probably fairly capable in decoding DTS.

Actually, DVD players often use the same decoders found in a typical receiver. The basic DTS decoding is usually done on the same decoding chip that does the DD decoding, so even if a DVD player does not have DTS decoding available as a workable feature, the decoding chip itself is often DTS-capable even if the feature is inactive. My understanding is that these decoders are designed to perform within identical specs, and that differences you hear pertain more to the post-processing and analog signal path.

That brings up a good point. I'd been wondering if the reason my DD didn't sound as good was because I didn't configure my gear right. I know that if I change a few things in my pre/pro's settings, the DD sound will improve. However, the DTS sound is still preferable to my ears. If only I could save each set of settings for each sound format.

Definitely a lot of variables to consider if you want to do a valid comparison between the two formats. Aside from the settings, the biggest consideration is not knowing what other differences exist between a given DD and DTS track. Just because they're on the same disc does not mean that they were encoded simultaneously or even used the same master source. Those Warner discs I suggested are known to be good for comparison, because they were encoded simultaneously from the same printmaster and use the full bitrate versions for both formats.

I think DD's Achilles heel is the high frequency channel combining. With a 448k 5.1 DD track, all of the sounds above 15 kHz are joined with no separation in those frequencies between the five channels. With the lower resolution 384k 5.1 DD tracks, the channel combining starts at 10 kHz, which is well within the audible range. (And unfortunately, broadcast HDTV has begun to standardize around 384k DD) Subjectively, I can often tell a DD track by how the imaging gets rendered -- it just sounds less precise and "fatter" in general.

Other attributes ascribed to DTS, I think are more disc-specific than general to the audio format itself. For example, based on the format specs alone (and if you're playing DD using full dynamic range) the DD bass should not sound any different than DTS with all things equal (and with DVDs, things are not always equal -- if the DD and DTS tracks were encoded at different times using different master sources, then the other factors outside of the format are very unequal). Also, if you hear/measure a 10 db difference in the LFE track, then you're probably using an older processor, in which case you'll need to boost the DTS LFE level by 10 db in order to equalize it with the DD LFE level.