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Differences Between North American & European Reviews
I was just wondering if anyone else has noticed disparities between North American & European Reviews for some products....
Offhand I can think of two brands that seem to be received very differently in North America and Europe: Marantz & NAD....
Case in point the NAD C372 (150 Watt per channel integrated amp) - if you check the NAD website all the reviews for this amp are from the US and Canada... Stereophile rated it as Class B, The Absolute Sound and Soundstage both loved it... yet if I remember correctly it was trashed by What Hifi? when it came out & given only an average rating by HiFi Choice more recently... The North American reviews seemed to love it's power capabilities while the Europeans thought that there were far better performing (though less powerful) amps available at its price.... The Europeans have heaped praises on NAD's cheaper and lower powered amps....
Case 2 - Marantz Integrated Amps... Where are the reviews for the PM7001 or any of the Reference series in North America? I see 5 star What HiFi? reviews, EISA awards & Excellent HiFi Choice reviews for Marantz amps in Europe, but I can't even find a review for any of their amps in North America... What makes it even stranger is the fact that their CD players are raved about so highly in N.A. Stereophile has had their SA8260 & now SA8001 as Class A for about 6 years now and the Absolute Sound has picked their most expensive players the SA7S1 & the SA11S1 in their Editor's choice awards for 2007. So why haven't these same magazines reviewed their amps?
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I find it interesting that British magazines can rate the same equipment so differently. One may rave, another might think it is okay for the money and the last not recommended it. I think we all have different sonic priorities.
I have not heard a NAD component in too long a time to comment. I have also not heard the Marantz integrated amps but love the SA8001. I think they have a way with cd players. The CD5001 is a great budget player which I also own. I think the cd players draw a lot of attention and that may be why the int. amps are overlooked. There are integrated amps such as the Onkyo A-9555 which drew press for being a Class D design and sounds better than it's budget price might indicate. I think that novelty drew attention from some products that are good such as the Marantz int. amp. I think budget equipment is easily overlooked without some novel feature or like NAD a strong history of value for the dollar.
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The fundamental difference between the British and American magazines is that the British magazines will typically rate anywhere from 80 to almost 200 products in each issue, where U.S. magazines rarely review more than 20 products per issue. British magazines are also a lot more open to mixing mass market products with higher end products, and throwing home theater and two-channel product reviews into the same issue.
The U.S. magazines typically have a preconceived audience in mind -- Stereophile and TAS review audio-only, and leave the home theater reviews to separate sister publications that might use the same reviewers. And Sound & Vision is the magazine that rates mass market products, while Stereophile is less apt to including mass market products.
In addition, the U.S. magazine reviews are typically lengthier, where the reviewer will spend a long time with a product at home before publishing the review. British magazines typically cull together a review panel and they will do a comparison review of several products at the same time. Hi-Fi Choice I believe conducts these listening tests under blind conditions.
Differences in editorial policy will also vary depending on the magazine. I've noticed that What Hi-Fi? and Hi-Fi Choice tend to have very different opinions frequently.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woochifer
The fundamental difference between the British and American magazines is that the British magazines will typically rate anywhere from 80 to almost 200 products in each issue, where U.S. magazines rarely review more than 20 products per issue. British magazines are also a lot more open to mixing mass market products with higher end products, and throwing home theater and two-channel product reviews into the same issue.
The U.S. magazines typically have a preconceived audience in mind -- Stereophile and TAS review audio-only, and leave the home theater reviews to separate sister publications that might use the same reviewers. And Sound & Vision is the magazine that rates mass market products, while Stereophile is less apt to including mass market products.
In addition, the U.S. magazine reviews are typically lengthier, where the reviewer will spend a long time with a product at home before publishing the review. British magazines typically cull together a review panel and they will do a comparison review of several products at the same time. Hi-Fi Choice I believe conducts these listening tests under blind conditions.
Differences in editorial policy will also vary depending on the magazine. I've noticed that What Hi-Fi? and Hi-Fi Choice tend to have very different opinions frequently.
To add to your points:
British Mags tend to give scores i.e. 5 stars, 91% etc... while American mags just give long narratives....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMichael
I find it interesting that British magazines can rate the same equipment so differently. One may rave, another might think it is okay for the money and the last not recommended it. I think we all have different sonic priorities.
That's a good point, I can think of two products with very different reviews in HiFi Choice and What HiFi?
Monitor Audio RS6 were raved about and made speaker of the year back in 05 by What HiFi but were not recommended in their HiFi Choice review (interestingly enough, HiFi Choice later recommended the RS8).
Cambridge Audio 840A version 1 - Raved about by HiFi Choice but only given 3 stars by What HiFi?
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Originally Posted by JohnMichael
I have not heard a NAD component in too long a time to comment. I have also not heard the Marantz integrated amps but love the SA8001. I think they have a way with cd players. The CD5001 is a great budget player which I also own. I think the cd players draw a lot of attention and that may be why the int. amps are overlooked. There are integrated amps such as the Onkyo A-9555 which drew press for being a Class D design and sounds better than it's budget price might indicate. I think that novelty drew attention from some products that are good such as the Marantz int. amp. I think budget equipment is easily overlooked without some novel feature or like NAD a strong history of value for the dollar.
I can understand Marantz amps being overshadowed by their CD players, but even so I'm really suprised that I can't find even one review.... I thought manufacturers tended to send matching components to be reviewed together (well I see a lot of that in the British reviews anyway)...
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Hot air
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Originally Posted by Woochifer
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In addition, the U.S. magazine reviews are typically lengthier, where the reviewer will spend a long time with a product at home before publishing the review. British magazines typically cull together a review panel and they will do a comparison review of several products at the same time. Hi-Fi Choice I believe conducts these listening tests under blind conditions.
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The panel/consensus approach of the Brit mags is commendable although the time with a given component must necessarily be very short. 'Phile and TAS articles themselves are long on account of being heavily padded with personal reminiscences and anecdotes on the one hand, and impressions of the sound particular recordings that are difficult to relate to unless you own the actual album. I would appreciate more succinct and to-the-point articles. Personally, if I wanted a literary experience I would look elsewhere than audiophile magazines.
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I'll bet ya $10.00 that Def Tech has never gotten a bad review in S&V mag. Their advertisement for those plastic looking tower speakers have appeared on the inside cover and page five for at least the past five issues. Prime real estate for which they probably pay big bucks to S&V for. Would the S&V editors EVER say anything negative about those two models? Not likely.
One greedy hand washes the other greedy hand. :rolleyes:
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I have read that one reason the equipment reviews are different is because of housing issues. British and European houses tend to be smaller than those in the USA. The smaller rooms will cause a difference in how amplifiers are rated due to fewer watts being needed for a given loudness. This also causes speakers marketed in Europe to be smaller and probably more efficient overall, leading to yet another form of review bias.
Many American audiophiles would consider a 25 watt solid state amplifier as too small , but the European reviewers color their tastes to some extent for their audience. Since we in the US are less likely to consider a 25 watt amp as adequate, our perspective is somewhat different and few amplifiers with those kind of power ratings get US reviews.
I realize that some American audiophiles just love their 5 watt SET, but in spite of that love affair, flea power SET has never become mainstream.
So it would seem that the reviews end up with different conclusions because the listening environment is different.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermanv
I have read that one reason the equipment reviews are different is because of housing issues. British and European houses tend to be smaller than those in the USA. The smaller rooms will cause a difference in how amplifiers are rated due to fewer watts being needed for a given loudness. This also causes speakers marketed in Europe to be smaller and probably more efficient overall, leading to yet another form of review bias.
Many American audiophiles would consider a 25 watt solid state amplifier as too small , but the European reviewers color their tastes to some extent for their audience. Since we in the US are less likely to consider a 25 watt amp as adequate, our perspective is somewhat different and few amplifiers with those kind of power ratings get US reviews.
I realize that some American audiophiles just love their 5 watt SET, but in spite of that love affair, flea power SET has never become mainstream.
So it would seem that the reviews end up with different conclusions because the listening environment is different.
Good points.... I suspect that the differences are due to what you described... essentially just differences in tastes....which are at least partially due to the average size of living spaces in which music is played...
I do find it interesting that you say that "the European reviewers color their tastes to some extent for their audience" and not that American reviewers color their tastes.... :idea:
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[QUOTE=Ajani]That's a good point, I can think of two products with very different reviews in HiFi Choice and What HiFi?
Monitor Audio RS6 were raved about and made speaker of the year back in 05 by What HiFi but were not recommended in their HiFi Choice review (interestingly enough, HiFi Choice later recommended the RS8).
Cambridge Audio 840A version 1 - Raved about by HiFi Choice but only given 3 stars by What HiFi?
This just shows how every one has different likes and dislikes. What sounds good to one persons ears may not sound as good to another. Thats what makes trusting reviews difficult. I personally like the review panel method of reviewing a product and comparing it with other brands.
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Maybe the grass is just greener on the other side. Here in the USA a Corvette is just another Chevy. In Japan it's one of the highest levels of prestige to own one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMichael
Maybe the grass is just greener on the other side. Here in the USA a Corvette is just another Chevy. In Japan it's one of the highest levels of prestige to own one.
I'm going to come up there and SMACK you!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I'm going to come up there and SMACK you!!!
You know what I mean.
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Originally Posted by Ajani
I do find it interesting that you say that "the European reviewers color their tastes to some extent for their audience" and not that American reviewers color their tastes.... :idea:
Just bad semantics, everyone colors their opinions based on their own perceptions. Except maybe Corvette owners. :smilewinkgrin:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
This just shows how every one has different likes and dislikes. What sounds good to one persons ears may not sound as good to another. Thats what makes trusting reviews difficult. I personally like the review panel method of reviewing a product and comparing it with other brands.
I actually really like HiFi Choice's panel review approach, especially the DBT part... the only thing I wish the European mags would do more consistently is to state what 'associated equipment' was used in the testing...
It's great to know that a panel of reviewers like a particular amp over 5 other amps, in a DBT group test... but I really want to know what Speakers and CD player were used in the testing.... since I'm a strong believer in system synergy...
Also, I tend to read both professional reviews (for sound quality) and user reviews (for reliabilty - no point buying a great sounding product that will turn to junk in 3 weeks)... Reviews help me to identify hot products that I really should audition before spending my money on anything else... however, no-one should use reviews as the sole reason for making a purchase.... That will almost inevitably lead to disatisfaction.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-n-Texas
I'll bet ya $10.00 that Def Tech has never gotten a bad review in S&V mag. Their advertisement for those plastic looking tower speakers have appeared on the inside cover and page five for at least the past five issues. Prime real estate for which they probably pay big bucks to S&V for. Would the S&V editors EVER say anything negative about those two models? Not likely.
One greedy hand washes the other greedy hand. :rolleyes:
Maybe.... though I think sometimes we assume that products get great reviews because of advertising when it may actually be the other way around....
For example - after the Monitor Audio RS6 got a massive @$$kissing from Stereophile, ads went up on Stereophile's website (and are still up) quoting Rob Reina's review of the RS6.... Yes it is possible that it was a case of pat my back and I'll pat yours, but it could also just be good marketing by Monitor Audio...
If I produced a product and a review magazine loved it, I'd make sure to advertise as much as possible in that magazine and quote the review in every ad... just in case a reader might have missed the actual issue... On the other hand, If a magazine bashed my product, then there is no way in hell that I'd waste money advertising in their mag... so it may just be a case of companies advertising in mags that generally like their products and not that companies pay mags to write good reviews....
Rave reviews don't necessarily mean pay offs.... just consider how many of our forum members are die-hard supporters of particular brands (Apogee, PSB, McIntosh, Dynaudio & Magnepan come to mind).... I doubt that any of these members get kickbacks from their favourite brands for constantly doing 'free advertising' for them... So I suspect professional reviewers are the same.... they fall in love with particular brands and never stop raving about them....
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Another Difference that I remembered today is that European mags are more willing to trash a product... I can think of so many absolutely nasty reviews in British mags for products by major brands (even when they've praised other products in that manufacturer's line)... I really can't remember the last time I read a really bad review of a product in Stereophile or The Absolute Sound.
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I don't read magazines for HI-FI not intended for the American market and am puzzled as to why they sell them over here.
Not being zenophobic but conditions and tastes and expectations tend to be different in
certain areas of this country alone, you know its going to be apples and oranges in another country.
SO A "REVIEW" from what hi-fi or another mag from "over the pond" is generally
going to be , like GM and RICH, pretty much useless.
BTW rich do you go around "smackin" on guys much?:1:
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The problem with America
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Originally Posted by pixelthis
I don't read magazines for HI-FI not intended for the American market and am puzzled as to why they sell them over here.
Not being zenophobic but conditions and tastes and expectations tend to be different in certain areas of this country alone, you know its going to be apples and oranges in another country.[emphasis added]
SO A "REVIEW" from what hi-fi or another mag from "over the pond" is generally going to be , like GM and RICH, pretty much useless.
...
Different, yes. But this is exactly why some of us like to read these mags occassionally -- a fresh perspective. I guess that's an "alien" notion to you, Pixel.
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Originally Posted by Feanor
Different, yes. But this is exactly why some of us like to read these mag soccassionally -- a fresh perspective. I guess that's an "alien" notion to you, Pixel.
Agreed... Shocking as it might seem to Pix and many others, you can learn things from other cultures... even in relation to our audio hobby.....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
...but conditions and tastes and expectations tend to be different in
certain areas of this country alone, you know its going to be apples and oranges in another country.
Sounds like a good reason to get a wide range of opinions to me.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelthis
I don't read magazines for HI-FI not intended for the American market and am puzzled as to why they sell them over here.
Not being zenophobic but conditions and tastes and expectations tend to be different in
certain areas of this country alone, you know its going to be apples and oranges in another country.
SO A "REVIEW" from what hi-fi or another mag from "over the pond" is generally
going to be , like GM and RICH, pretty much useless.
BTW rich do you go around "smackin" on guys much?:1:
I don't do a whole lot of reviewing. But the few I have done have been accurate and good reads.
Didn't see much wrong with Rich's review either. He put down what he knew, and made no attempt to act like he knew about things he didn't. Maybe you could take note of that and follow his shining example.
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I tend to think the "real world" reviews that I encounter on sites like Amazon, here, and other places pertinent to stuff I purchase are a better, less externally influenced read.
Yes, I fall into the "great unwashed" category and I only speak to what I have experienced myself.
BTW, what does he mean by "smackin"? Is that more hillbilly speak?
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Ajani, did you get Monitor Audio's yet?
Please take this under serious consideration. A used pair of Gold Reference 60s are just about the best speaker-bargain in high-end audio. Period. I've listened to many high-end speakers over the years, I am fortunate to own one of the greatest speakers ever made. I can tell you categorically that the Gold Reference 60 is a giant killer, and that is no hype. First off, you've got fantastic ceramic coated magnesium drivers C-CAM, the surface of which is fashioned (very cleverly) like a golf ball to aid in dispersion (golf balls are dimpled to help them travel further with less resistance). I can't think of any other manufacturer doing this, so I'm guessing MA have this under patent in some way. Secondly, you have that marvellous and unusual copper/gold dome tweeter that is easily a match for many a high-end titanium tweeter. You get drivers that are all constructed in exactly the same fashion (except the tweeter). As far as sound, you get ultra fast, ultra clear, see-thru transparency given their price. You get seemless coherence (close your eyes and this speaker sounds like an electrostatic with cajones). You get prodigious bass for a speaker of this size - the bass that really counts by the way - the mid-bass that is, which is warm, rich, full, and fast. No it will not have the bottom end of a heavyweight, but it is very good all the same. With a good tube amp, these GR60s are so so enjyable to listen too. These can be had on the used market for about 1,500 -1,700 or so (a steal). Save and get these if you can. It is very much worth it. You will be drawn to listening to all sorts of music much too much I can tell you. By the way, the Paradigm References, which are similar and pretty good overall, are still no match for the GR60s.
I like Eurpean audio mags as well as American mags. Its informative to get different perspectives. I think the Brit mags - hi-fi choice for example - tend to be a bit more to the point/scientific about things. I've read some brilliant articles in European mags that address the science behind acoustic subjects, and I wish Stereophile and TAS had more of these.
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Originally Posted by O'Shag
Ajani, did you get Monitor Audio's yet?
Not yet.... I've finally got the wife to agree to the budget (lol)... so I will be getting either a pair of GS20 or GS60s... I haven't heard the 60s though, but the 20s were amazing (with some tubed Musical Fidelity Gear)....
Quote:
Originally Posted by O'Shag
Please take this under serious consideration. A used pair of Gold Reference 60s are just about the best speaker-bargain in high-end audio. Period. I've listened to many high-end speakers over the years, I am fortunate to own one of the greatest speakers ever made. I can tell you categorically that the Gold Reference 60 is a giant killer, and that is no hype. First off, you've got fantastic ceramic coated magnesium drivers C-CAM, the surface of which is fashioned (very cleverly) like a golf ball to aid in dispersion (golf balls are dimpled to help them travel further with less resistance). I can't think of any other manufacturer doing this, so I'm guessing MA have this under patent in some way. Secondly, you have that marvellous and unusual copper/gold dome tweeter that is easily a match for many a high-end titanium tweeter. You get drivers that are all constructed in exactly the same fashion (except the tweeter). As far as sound, you get ultra fast, ultra clear, see-thru transparency given their price. You get seemless coherence (close your eyes and this speaker sounds like an electrostatic with cajones). You get prodigious bass for a speaker of this size - the bass that really counts by the way - the mid-bass that is, which is warm, rich, full, and fast. No it will not have the bottom end of a heavyweight, but it is very good all the same. With a good tube amp, these GR60s are so so enjyable to listen too. These can be had on the used market for about 1,500 -1,700 or so (a steal). Save and get these if you can. It is very much worth it. You will be drawn to listening to all sorts of music much too much I can tell you. By the way, the Paradigm References, which are similar and pretty good overall, are still no match for the GR60s.
I haven't auditioned Paradigm's Reference Series yet... but I'm going to book a trip to Puerto Rico in July (The wait is killing me) to do a lot auditioning and purchase some new gear... Unless I'm totally blown away by some other combo during my auditions, my heart is set on the Monitor Audio Golds with Musical Fidelity.....
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Originally Posted by O'Shag
I like Eurpean audio mags as well as American mags. Its informative to get different perspectives. I think the Brit mags - hi-fi choice for example - tend to be a bit more to the point/scientific about things. I've read some brilliant articles in European mags that address the science behind acoustic subjects, and I wish Stereophile and TAS had more of these.
I think a blend of different mags and consumer reviews is the way to go...
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