Copying is a reality why no levies on iPods?

[RGA]

And for that matter on computers and laptops. While not everyone steals music - it's not much different than the old corner store - that would hike the price of goods to "factor in" the kids who steal chocolate bars. You raise the price to factor in the loss.

I don't understand why this has not gone through - it can't effect competition since all companies would be hit with the same levy - and the company isn't hit anyway - it's the customer paying for it and the government running it.

This just makes more sense to me than lawsuits bringing in the odd minimum wager and fining them $200,000 when they'll never get their money.

I post because if an Artist as fairly big as Sophie Milman needs the help then there needs to be a fix.

Sophie Milman (jazz musician) at the Toronto Copyright Consultation - YouTube

[Hyfi]

OK so what about the flip side?

When CDs came out they were almost always $14.99 to $18.99. At that same time, you could get almost anything you wanted on vinyl for about $7.99.

The CD industry basically promised that the prices would fall as soon as it caught on, but did they? No they stayed in the same price range, except for your regular over-print-cutout type CDs for less.

So, if the music industry had kept it's promise, and the cost of buying the whole CD was what it costs to by 3 songs on MP3, do you think the issue would be as great as it is now?

The music industry, knowing ahead of time that they would in reality have no control over people and technology to make copies of digital content, factored the price of piracy into the first CDs they put out along with ALL the rest of them since the 80s.

I say it's been a scam on the music industry side from the beginning and turnaround is fair play now. The problem is that it hurts the performer more than the record industry.

[recoveryone]

You can go futher back than CD's, Vinyl prices were above $10 but the real issue goes back to quality of work. many people were getting fed up paying the amounts they were for only 1-3 good songs and the rest of the album was crap. During the Disco era sales went up due to the 12" cut of club mix song and the price was only around $3-5 dollars. The death of the old 45 is what caused the growing rebellion over the decades, so when the newer technolgy started coming out (CD's Mp3...) the masses found a way to get those single songs they love without paying for a full album of stuff they did not want.

I remember as a kid paying .45 for a 45 single and when the price went up around a dollar people stop buying them, but look at us now, we pay .99 for a Mp3/Itunes which is processed at a lower fidelity than the old 45 records, and "lovin it" as if was the 2nd coming of Christ. We have allowed the industry to dumb us down in quality sound in exchange for easy access and mobility. The bottom line is that the industry will always get its cut, the artist will suffer, the fans suffer, but the industry will keep looking for the next money grab. If you look at these reality singing shows, you will find that the top finisher are under slave contracts that only benefit the industry and the top execs. The artist spend years trying to get from under those first contracts, so they can gain more control of their work and profits from the work. Most people will tell you that the real money is in writing songs not singing.

[Feanor]

The argument for a levy on iPods, (etc.), isn't unprecedented of course. As far as I know, for a long time there in Canada there has been such a levy on recordable media, e.g. cassettes and (?) DVD-R. So why not iPods, hard disks, flash memory, etc.??

Does this work, i.e. effectively compensate artists and producers for loss of royalties? In large part it must depend on the bases of distribution of the collected levies. I don't know how well it works: anybody have any info?

... Wooch, savant that you are?

[E-Stat]

And for that matter on computers and laptops.

While this may seem to be a *new* conversation to you, I bought my first device capable of such in 1969. I remember making "play lists" consisting of Steppenwolf, Zager & Evans, Doors, etc.

[Ajani]

The bottom line is that the industry will always get its cut, the artist will suffer, the fans suffer, but the industry will keep looking for the next money grab. If you look at these reality singing shows, you will find that the top finisher are under slave contracts that only benefit the industry and the top execs. The artist spend years trying to get from under those first contracts, so they can gain more control of their work and profits from the work. Most people will tell you that the real money is in writing songs not singing.

As much as I hate the record industry practices as a general rule, I have to point out that songwriters and producers are the ones who create the music. The artist is often someone with a pretty face and a decent singing voice - essentially a dime a dozen. Go to any church or school choir and you can find lots of persons who can sing.

Now try and find a songwriter/producer who can create a top 10 song - those persons are rare. A great producer can make an artist with minimal talent into the next big thing. Hence Songwriters and producers make loads of money - they create the music.

Just look at how many artists eventually leave those initial "slave contracts" and are unable to create a hit song afterwards. because the fact is that the artist was merely blessed with a good voice and a pretty face - while someone else created all the music.

The artists who tend to be really successful are the ones who can write and produce their own songs.

[recoveryone]

As much as I hate the record industry practices as a general rule, I have to point out that songwriters and producers are the ones who create the music. The artist is often someone with a pretty face and a decent singing voice - essentially a dime a dozen. Go to any church or school choir and you can find lots of persons who can sing.

Now try and find a songwriter/producer who can create a top 10 song - those persons are rare. A great producer can make an artist with minimal talent into the next big thing. Hence Songwriters and producers make loads of money - they create the music.

Just look at how many artists eventually leave those initial "slave contracts" and are unable to create a hit song afterwards. because the fact is that the artist was merely blessed with a good voice and a pretty face - while someone else created all the music.

The artists who tend to be really successful are the ones who can write and produce their own songs.

very true

[Janjuc]

The argument for a levy on iPods, (etc.), isn't unprecedented of course. As far as I know, for a long time there in Canada there has been such a levy on recordable media, e.g. cassettes and (?) DVD-R. So why not iPods, hard disks, flash memory, etc.??

I would envisage the vast majority of these hard disks, flash drives etc. are never used to store any music or movie media on them, so why pay a royalty to 'artists' for something that will never occur ????

JJ

[RGA]

Ajani

As a bit of a poetry writer myself - writing a song doesn't seem all that difficult - not compared to writing Villanelles.

But I don't have a background in music composition - well I did way back in high school but I could not write the music to go along with the lyrics. I typically like the Villanelle format

an Example from Leonard Cohen

From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.
The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.
Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
From bitter searching of the heart
We rise to play a greater part.


And artists like Loreena McKennitt put Alfred Lord Tenneyson's Lady of Shalott to music and is one of her best tunes (even if she took out a stanza or two) Loreena McKennitt: the lady of Shalott - YouTube

Certainly a lot better than

What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside your trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get, you drunk,
Get you love drunk off my humps,
Humps, my humps, my humps, my humps, my humps,
My humps, my humps, my humps, my lovely little humps



Sadly the latter is the one that made mega millions of dollars

[Ajani]

Ajani

As a bit of a poetry writer myself - writing a song doesn't seem all that difficult - not compared to writing Villanelles.

But I don't have a background in music composition - well I did way back in high school but I could not write the music to go along with the lyrics. I typically like the Villanelle format

an Example from Leonard Cohen

From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.
The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.
Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
From bitter searching of the heart
We rise to play a greater part.


And artists like Loreena McKennitt put Alfred Lord Tenneyson's Lady of Shalott to music and is one of her best tunes (even if she took out a stanza or two) Loreena McKennitt: the lady of Shalott - YouTube

Certainly a lot better than

What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside your trunk?
I'ma get, get, get, get, you drunk,
Get you love drunk off my humps,
Humps, my humps, my humps, my humps, my humps,
My humps, my humps, my humps, my lovely little humps



Sadly the latter is the one that made mega millions of dollars

Writing a song is about far more than just creating lyrics.

My Humps by the Black Eyed Peas didn't sell millions because fans thought the lyrics were brilliant (amusing - yes). It sold because the song sounds extremely catchy.

Many artists have little or no creative input - they are merely paid to sing a song created by someone else. They are even instructed on how to sing the song - the songwriter/producer already knows how the song should sound (since he created it).

Lots of persons have decent singing voices - most artist don't have great voices. In fact some of the persons with the best voices don't get music contracts simply because they don't look cute. It's much easier to package a pretty 16 year old girl with a decent voice, than a fugly 43 year old with the voice of an angel.

With the the right producer I could have a hit song - and I have no singing talent.

I think a good comparison in HiFi terms might be the designer of an amplifier versus the assembler. The former has irreplaceable skills and receives the big pay, while the latter just needs training and basic skills and gets a fraction of the pay.

[Luvin Da Blues]

.......... It's much easier to package a pretty 16 year old girl with a decent voice, than a fugly 43 year old with the voice of an angel................

Case in point

Susan Boyle - Britains Got Talent 2009 Episode 1 - Saturday 11th April | HD High Quality - YouTube

[RGA]

Boyle was the second biggest selling album of 2009 and the fastest selling debut album of all time in the UK.

Adele isn't exactly a looker either.

In general though Ajani is correct in the majority of cases - the odd exceptions here or there no withstanding. But those Spice Girl groups were never about singing - it's about the sexy show with some music backing it up.

The problem of course then becomes if you do put on the sexy show and dress weird you won't be taken seriously as having a pretty good voice.

I don't know how many times I read people saying that Gaga is a talentless hack on audiophile music forums - and then you find out they've never heard her sing - they looked at the costume and some video clips and she's written off. She's by no means the greatest singer in the world but in the world of pop over the last 30 years her voice ranks in the upper percentile. There's simply more money in doing her shtick than having a long steady "decent" career singing what she used to sing before she was Lady Gaga - as shown here

Lady Gaga Live at NYU - Captivated & Electric Kiss 2005 - YouTube

And this is how the business people in the industry transformed the above to what she is now - I found it rather fascinating to see what they did to change her to a star - 3 minutes

The Lady before GaGa: The great Stefani Germanotta makeover - YouTube

[RGA]

One more note on singing and stars.

I often wonder why very accomplished singers - who are also pretty and in the following case can also act don't do more singing.

This woman can sing - way better than most any pop singer - and yet - nothing - she sang the song herself.

Jean Louisa Kelly - Someone To Watch Over Me - YouTube

Lady Gaga's version which is surprisingly good as well [HD] Lady GaGa - Someone To Watch Over Me (Live on the Today Show 7/9/10) - YouTube

[Ajani]

Boyle was the second biggest selling album of 2009 and the fastest selling debut album of all time in the UK.

Adele isn't exactly a looker either.

Keep in mind that Boyle's success is largely because of reality TV - had she merely walked into a studio, chances are high they might have had security escort her out before she even got to sing a note....

Boyle's success has likely paved the way for persons like Adele to fit in more easily...

Of course, we'll have to wait and see if this new level of acceptance of talent rather than just good looks is a shift in the music industry culture or just another fad.

In the old days when you had an unattractive old singer, you merely hired a couple of rastas in tights to lip-sink:

Milli Vanilli - Girl You Know It's True - 1989 - Versión Extendida - YouTube

In general though Ajani is correct in the majority of cases - the odd exceptions here or there no withstanding. But those Spice Girl groups were never about singing - it's about the sexy show with some music backing it up.

The problem of course then becomes if you do put on the sexy show and dress weird you won't be taken seriously as having a pretty good voice.

I don't know how many times I read people saying that Gaga is a talentless hack on audiophile music forums - and then you find out they've never heard her sing - they looked at the costume and some video clips and she's written off. She's by no means the greatest singer in the world but in the world of pop over the last 30 years her voice ranks in the upper percentile. There's simply more money in doing her shtick than having a long steady "decent" career singing what she used to sing before she was Lady Gaga - as shown here

Lady Gaga Live at NYU - Captivated & Electric Kiss 2005 - YouTube

And this is how the business people in the industry transformed the above to what she is now - I found it rather fascinating to see what they did to change her to a star - 3 minutes

The Lady before GaGa: The great Stefani Germanotta makeover - YouTube

GaGa has a better voice than most of the current pop princesses.

[RGA]

Ajani

and of course unlike the 1950s we are living in a much bigger video accessible age. I am not sure we can say that people are more shallow today than they were before. I think if your talent truly outstrips everyone else - looks won't matter - but if you're just 'a bit better' then they'll take the looks.

Simon Cowell on American Idol made this remark (way back the first episode I watched that show) that they are looking for pop stars and it's not just about the voice. Pop music isn't terribly demanding - the singer needs to simply pick songs that they can handle.

I happened to see a short documentary on Swedish pop music and they interviewed the duet Roxette. The guy writes the songs and noted that he wrote one that was originally meant for him but he simply could not hit the notes so they switched it up and gave the song to to girl. And it ended up being one of if not their biggest hit Roxette - Listen To Your Heart - YouTube (yeah it's overproduced - but they were following Abba and I still like the song.

People dump on those talent shows but it gives less good looking an opportunity to get onto a world wide stage and not having some idiot in a room shut them down because he's a music executive who can't sell a product.

Britain's got talent or whatever allows them to bypass the "industry" and let the people decide.

I am sure we all have albums in our collections where we say I wonder why track 4 is a massive hit but track 2 is way better and never made the top 40.

Some have come through the likes of American Idol type shows that have superior voices like Kurt Nilson and Paul Potts (an untrained opera singer who arguably isn't up to the best - given some training could easily be world class. Kurt looks like a character in the Lord of the Rings movies.

Potts is working at a warehouse Paul Potts sings Nessun Dorma - YouTube

Nilson is part of a 4 man band and I have to say they're pretty damn good. This one has grown on me as a version of the song and is probably my favorite Hallelujah (shrek song) Best version! - YouTube

[RGA]

I listened to this again when I got home [HD] Lady GaGa - Someone To Watch Over Me (Live on the Today Show 7/9/10) - YouTube

Gaga with Tony Bennet Lady is a Tramp Lady Gaga - The Lady Is A Tramp (Full Song ft. Tony Bennett) - YouTube


I am going to go out on a limb and say that she seriously needs to sing Jazz - I would FAR rather listen to Gaga sing jazz than Diana Krall.

And I am quite serious. She has a better voice - and she knows how to play piano. She has a deepish lounge style voice but it's not nasal like Krall and Gaga has a wider vocal range. This is what separates Gaga from the rest of the pack of pop tarts - she's not limited. I wish more artists would not be afraid to try different things. Sinead O'Connor of all people put out a Reggae album and I only heard part of it in a store but she did a really good job of it.

Rock singers like Don Henley put out self titled albums - why not a pop singer - do your shtick but then also put out an album of quality titles - the pop fans will buy it because they love her - so there's no risk - an all Jazz album would be a smash hit in terms of sales. Might get some people interested in jazz who may otherwise have not even listened to it.

Even if she's only marginal with other covers it doesn't matter because she could very well lift sales of Jazz and for other Jazz artists. Now if Eminem could play Violin and loved Vilvadi - ok ok that's probably too much to ask.

[tube fan]

I have always preferred Jazz to Pop. 99% of pop is bubblegum. Jazz is real music. I think Lady Gaga has a good voice, but her "music" sucks. Miles and Coltrane will be considered great long after all the pop "stars" of today are forgotten.

[RGA]

I always wonder about these arguments though.

So and so pop star will be forgotten but everyone will remember Miles.

SO WHAT? Lady Gaga will be counting her hundred million when she's 50 and Miles will still be dead.

I guess I just don't always buy into these arguments - the Beatles and Elvis still get huge play from 50 years ago.

We don't know what will survive 50 years from now - judging by most of the inept crap that is out there now - and the fact that music programs in schools are the first thing to go in a budget crunch - kids don't learn instruments (except guitar, drums, and bass) or synthesizers on their computers.

They're not listening to Mozart.

So all the old farts on forums saying pop won't last but Miles and Mozart will - I would like to see some evidence of this because the people who will be alive in 60 years are not listening to any of it now.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's disgusting that classical and jazz are not more appreciated or studied in school - but as Mr Holland in Mr. Holland's Opus noted 2 minutes. Best scene in the entire movie Mr. Holland's Opus - Part 13 - YouTube

And THAT is the reason why music is going to piss and that is why it has become a disposable commodity. The school district I just left cut out their music room - you know how depressing it is to walk into a high school music room with the ceiling tiles in place and to see the music teacher everyday. But no she is teaching tourism and English while the music room is filled with work out equipment and weights.

And drama? Gone.

[Ajani]

It's not the genre of music that determines whether it lasts. I'm sure lots of jazz and classical is forgettable crap that even hardcore jazz and classical fans don't listen to years later. While pop albums from Michael Jackson, George Michael, Prince, Whitney Houston and Madona are still being played almost 30 years later.

I'm sure the majority of music has always been forgettable fare, but the songs that people really enjoy (regardless of genre) endure.