• 12-17-2010, 11:02 PM
    RGA
    Ajani

    There is two ways of looking at companies that do these sorts of fast changes. Optimistically, you could argue that they continue their research and have found superior sound elements and so a new amp comes out. Trouble is it's solid state and it doesn't really improve a whole lot or quickly. I would actually make the same case for tube amps. The Ongaku has been around for 20 years and while it's been improved it's not a wholesale change.

    Pessimistically, which is me most of the time, the fast changes can be viewed as marketing to push out more boxes as fast as possible. There are SOOO many companies that change models every 3-5 years like clockwork - funny how most of the companies all find revolutionary upgrades to gear in that time span - which just so happens to be when a product is in the plateau stage of sales.

    1) market new product - create Hype for XYZ - show a picture of unit behind curtain and advertise XYZ model in every magazine around the world. Unveil new product at shows. Then the ooh and ahh from the fans of previous gear.

    2) Show reports - more ooh and ahh. Send reviewers the new product. Reviews come out raving from 6 mnths to a year..

    3) Dealers start taking pre-orders for the new unit - Be the first to own it and get a 30% discount - lucky you. Reputable big name brand with reviews - then go the forum hoorah's that XYZ is great.

    4) 1-2 years of sales. XYZ has went through the review circuit. All the mags that were going to review it have reviewed it. Unfortunately competitors have their own ABC unit which recently got a rave and a gold star and sales of XYZ are not as big as it was.

    5) Let's slap on a new badge and call XYZ the NYPD1 and put a fancy blue lighted tube in it and add $100 and say that it blows away the old models - very special new unit.

    6) Go back to number 1 and start over. And the sad thing is in virtually every case none of them were better than the real good amps and speakers that have been around for a decade or more then and they're still not better.

    My view is that better stuff that continues to sell year in and year out with practically zero hype is very likely to be a better overall performer than stuff that gets changed every year or 4. And in some cases there are people that still continue to prefer older products from a company than newer ones, back when they were about the actual products and not about the marketing and money aspect of it.

    And the owner is not screwed by equipment that has lasting appeal. An amp that was selling in 1997 for example might have been going for $2500 and if it is still sold today might sell for $4000(let's not factor in the actual dickered price and assume both would be similar). If it's pretty much the same amp and you decide to sell your well respected amp and the potential buyer looks at the retail price of the new amp in the store and sees $4,000 and sees you selling your amp for $2500 - hey that's a bargain to the potential consumer.

    There was a fellow in Britain who bought AN K's that sold for $1000 when they first came out. 15 years later he sold them for $1000. Why? Because the new versions of them are $3000. The guy buying used is happy because he got them for a deal (not quite as good as the new ones but close enough) and the original owner is super happy because he owned them for 15 years and got what he paid (well not quite due to the dollar). But my Wharfedales were $2200 in 1992 and I might if I'm lucky get $350 for them. It's not really a statement of quality either - Wharfedale could sell them to this day and in some ways they sound a lot better than their new ones and they'd be better than most of the stuff out there in the $1500-$3000 range for a rocker floorstander. The value has nothing to do with the sound - but the fact that it's now an old obsolete model renders the value very low.

    The other way around all of that is the companies like Bryston which has a 20 year warranty - that props up resale as well because a 10 year old Bryston still has a 5 year longer warranty than most all new SS amps increasing their value. But when MF basically says - this new model blows away the old one we sold 2 years ago - and if the price stays the same or goes down - then the obsolete model will find it's way intot he abyss of SS amps on the shelf for $350 at Soundhounds when it sold for $2500 2 years previous.

    I guess as a buyer I want something that is obviously not about marketing and is sold because it sounds good and which will hold off the competition for many years and never really be outclassed wholly. The A21a is like that - it has some foibles driving certain speaker loads but when it's partnered well it's difficult to beat around this price. Been selling since 1967 for a reason.
  • 12-18-2010, 06:05 AM
    Feanor
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RGA
    Ajani

    There is two ways of looking at companies that do these sorts of fast changes. Optimistically, you could argue that they continue their research and have found superior sound elements and so a new amp comes out. Trouble ....

    Pessimistically, which is me most of the time, the fast changes can be viewed as marketing to push out more boxes as fast as possible. ....

    Another reason for product changes, besides improved product and marketing, is cost lowering.

    New, cheaper but supposedly equivalent, components come along that require that existing circuits be tweated. Or designs will change on account of automated production. Or the two preceding might be combined, e.g. surface-mounted component equivalents that are easier for automated production as well as being smaller and cheaper.

    Also, design often change when production is out-sourced. For example, the Canadian, (i.e. Canadian founded), speaker makers, Energy and PSB, had totally new product lines when they move production to China.

    All of which reenforces the point that new doesn't necessarily mean better.
  • 12-18-2010, 11:13 AM
    Ajani
    RGA & Feanor,

    I certainly agree that new doesn't always mean better... Also a lot of it is really just marketing... Customers get excited about the latest group test winner or recommended component in a HiFi mag, not a product that hasn't been reviewed in 12 years... I certainly can't blame brands for wanting to keep their products fresh in the public eye and their sales up... But it does mean that buyer must beware... And never assume that the latest is the greatest, regardless of what an ad campaign says...

    Also, recently I've seen 2 old products (by the standard HiFi life-cycles) win group tests in the last few months: The 10 year old Quad 909 Amplifier & the 8 year old Benchmark DAC1... So it does go to show that a quality product is a quality product...
  • 12-18-2010, 12:58 PM
    RGA
    Yes and going back to the Sugden A21a and looking at the 1992 unit specifically. This amp was barely reviewed at the time but reviewed positively. Stereophile got to it around 2005(not sure but around this time) and John Marks mentioned that for sound it was the best around. But that means that for about 13 years they were giving class A and B out to inferior amplifiers simply because they didn't audition it. This is why I never go by any of these lists because they usually wind up coming down to ONE person's opinion as it does in Stereophile. And in the Hi-Fi Choice blind level matched tests the Sugden always beats similarly priced competition for sound quality. What it says though is that all the supposed advancements in SS technology the old SET technology continuously beats other designs sighted or blind. I continuously argue for "design" over price because you can throw a high sticker price on a mediocre design and it doesn't beat a better design at a lower price.

    It's also irritating that some magazines decide not to keep something in their lists after it gets to be 4-5 years old even if it is still in production. The old Stereophile had class A products that were no longer made and I would find that useful as a consumer when looking for used products (if I put stock into their classifications - which I don't but some people do).

    And another point to what Feaner said is that sometimes models get changed for very valid reasons such as something is no longer available to be sourced. Most companies rely on other companies for certain parts. Audio Note stopped all production of one box CD players because the Sony Transport they liked was no longer going to be made by Sony. They didn't like any of the other transports on the market so they simply stopped making them. But it is concievable that if they liked a different one that it would require a different case and electronics and would have to change the look or price of the unit so a company faced witht that could come out with a new model. The CD player I reviewed from them most recently for example uses a Philips L1210 transport and the changes the look and style of the players. And it sounds a helluva lot better than the older DAC 1 models so there is an actual improvement in sound although I am not a big fan of the L1210 or the aesthetics ergonomics of the AN player - at all.

    So it's not to say changes are not worthwhile. The Sugden A21a has been changed using better heat handling parts and can increase their power output and to add a few features to get a little more with the times.

    And all the digital sources it makes sense to come out with new models fairly quickly as those $4000 Sony, Denon, Pioneer receivers from 2002 are sitting on shelves at Soundhounds for $250 (asking). Need to keep up with the latest greatest surround processor and HDMI connections which the $449 new Pioneer has (and more advertised watts) so why buy an old obsolete box. If you're buying a feature box you need the one with the most features. My $350 Marantz receiver sounds no worse in any way to my 1995 Pioneer Elite at over $2,000. And the Marantz does more. And the new receivers for $300-$600 likely do WAY more than my Marantz.
  • 12-18-2010, 01:13 PM
    Ajani
    That is something people often forget, recommendations by magazines are limited to the gear they've auditioned during the period... So being named product of the year in the category of DACs under $500 doesn't really mean anything if the mag has only reviewed 2 or 3 DACs in that category...

    That complaint tends to be brought up more often on UK mags' forums, as users always ask "when are you going to review X product that was named best in class by another mag?"

    All reviews are limited. Even reviewers who have listened to most products at every major audio show, can only give a credible opinion on the gear they've spent serious time auditioning... Saying that a piece sounded bad in the 20 minutes I heard it at a show, while playing music I had no control over (and didn't like), is not meaningful to most users.
  • 12-18-2010, 01:55 PM
    Ajani
    To get back on topic again, here's another combo I really want to hear:

    http://www.wyred4sound.com/uploads/7...LK_FRONTws.jpg
    Wyred 4 Sound DAC 1/2

    http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred/hero.jpg
    Wyred 4 Sound SX-500 Monoblocks

    http://nuke.nonsoloaudiofili.com/Por...20P1000437.JPG
    Revel Performa F52
  • 12-18-2010, 02:11 PM
    YBArcam
    I'd love to hear a Sugden amp in my system one day. Most are obviously class A, single ended output. Just how bad is the heat that they generate? You'd obviously not want to sit anything on top of the amp, but do you need an air conditioned room in the summer, or would you need to take other special precautions?

    Also, Sugden has come out with a new Class AB design in the Mystro. Any chance that this amp might capture some of the Sugden magic in their Class A, SET designs? I'm guessing the answer is probably no, and if someone wants to experience Sugden they really should go all the way.
  • 12-18-2010, 06:00 PM
    RGA
    The A21a is the notable classic. Though their other amps are usually quite good. The A48b I had a very valve like sound to it. Deep bass (no frequency limiters) and dug down deep and sounded far more full bodied and rich than most SS amps (but it is also slightly thick and veiled - depending on the speaker though it's a nice tradeoff and they can be had for $350.

    Some have really liked the Mystro and the Sugden Headmaster was a good unit as both a preamp and headphone amp.

    They do get very hot. The front panel on the older ones were uncomfortably hot. They need ventilation.

    The thing is it really depends on your budget and how afraid of tubes you are (if you are). One of the great advantages of SE Tube amps is that they are virtually as plug and play as a Sugden. My amp for example in Line Level mode is about the same price as the Sugden A21a. But no Audio Note amp (or SETs in general) requires any sort of tube biasing. Take tube out stick new tube in and that's it. No volt meters or any of that crap. So every four to ten years you replace the light bulbs (err tubes) which take about 5 minutes (4 minutes to find where you put your screw driver to get the top off).

    I would still go with a very good SE tube amp over the Sugden if you have efficient speakers. But if I were to buy a Solid State integrated amp my first choice would be the A21a unless something comes along that would really wow me. Remember some of those big $50,000 SS separates don't necessarily "sound" better - they're built to drive horrendously difficult to drive loudspeakers. This is why the industry bothers me sometimes because you have a brutal to drive speaker that then requires massive current and power in massive expensive SS power amps that don't sound as good as inexpensive SETs. So even if there was something in the speakers - you are usually required to use an inferior sounding more expensive front end. Personally, I'd rather spend more on higher efficient speakers of high caliber and less expensive but superior sounding front end electronics. Granted I am biased I admit to HE/SET based set-ups.

    One other budget solid state amp that greatly impressed me was from Heed Audio. Not expsensive - butt ugly but also had a relatively interesting design and retains a lot of the valve qualities. I guess though that it seems like the better SS amps do in fact have a Valve goal or a less feedback goal in mind. To have SS sound more like a great SET is good but I suppose I would just ask "why not build a valve amp or SET?" and if the consumer wants an amp that sounds more like a valve then why not buy a tube/SET amp?

    Still, the Obelisk from Heed is worth trying - it fronted brilliant sound with the Trenner and Freidl RA Box and is a $2500ish SS integrated that practically no one knows about. http://www.heedaudio.hu/en/prod_old.html
  • 12-18-2010, 06:13 PM
    frenchmon