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  1. #26
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Well i'm always going the better reciever then the rest of my stuff guy. I'm pretty sure that my 2805 has better DAC'c then my Sony player. I think i'm alot less picky then most. Maybe someone could list say,5 common Dac's used in recievers and players that are best to look for. That might be interesting or list common equipment and what they use like Yamaha,Denon,Onkyo and so on,say all mid-priced stuff. I bet N Abstentia has that info all in his head to share with us,i hope.
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  2. #27
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    It not always in the actual conversion of digital to analog, but sometimes it is, but the quality has more to do with what happens to the analog signal after it's converted.

    I missed where the original posted gave his exact budget. I believe in one of my posts I agreed that if the budget was $300.00, give or take, he could be as well off getting a universal machine. Marantz is putting out some nice stuff in that range. But for not much more you can find a outboard DAC that will give far superior channel sound than a $300.00 universal machine.

    As far as which is better internal receiver DAC vs DVD or CD player, that's only something that can really be decided by listening and comparing.

  3. #28
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    Maybe someone could list say,5 common Dac's used in recievers and players that are best to look for. That might be interesting or list common equipment and what they use like Yamaha,Denon,Onkyo and so on,say all mid-priced stuff. I bet N Abstentia has that info all in his head to share with us,i hope.
    Actually I have no freaking idea! I have no idea who makes DAC's, I can name Burr/Brown mainly just from reading various player literature.

    Other than that, I just trust my ears. I've learned to never get caught up in a name as you can get burned. "OH, this player has ABC DAC, it must sound better than anything else. I'll take it." Not for me. It could have a Wile E. Coyote ACME DAC for all I care..as long as the total package delivers the sound I want is the main thing.

    Plus the DAC is just one piece of the puzzle. It's all got to work together in perfect harmony to sound good.

  4. #29
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    I'm starting my search for an ACME DAC,i know they are out there somewhere.
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  5. #30
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    "I can't tell you why this is from a technical stand point but it is. To not recognize this you'd have to be in the camp that thinks all CD players sound the same. You simply cannot make one machine do the job of 3 or 4 at the same cost and performance of the one machine."

    If you can't tell someone "why from a tecnical standpoint" then you can't tell him why. All you can tell them is you preceive a difference. From a technical standpoint there are no differences that a consumer would be able to benefit from.
    Buy a DVD player, almost any DVD player (most have a pretty finite life span to beging with). Most are made in the same Far East factories so it's pretty much it's just the marketing depts that are different. There are exceptions in build quality but there is not one ioda of evidence (perception does not qualify as evidence unless it can be scientifically validated) that build quality translates into "improved" sound.
    Make sure the DVD player you choose has all the features that you might require. At a minimum, it should have analog outputs, at least one (but two is better) digital outputs. It should also be able to play CD's and DVD's in the formats that you are likely to use.
    Also keep in mind the the DVD itself is on it's way out. Blu-Ray and HDCD are coming very soon and will quickly dominate the market. Current players will not play these formats so don't spend alot on a current generation DVD Player.
    Spend all the money you save on music. Software beats hardware anyday.

    David

  6. #31
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeman
    "I can't tell you why this is from a technical stand point but it is. To not recognize this you'd have to be in the camp that thinks all CD players sound the same. You simply cannot make one machine do the job of 3 or 4 at the same cost and performance of the one machine."

    If you can't tell someone "why from a tecnical standpoint" then you can't tell him why. All you can tell them is you preceive a difference. From a technical standpoint there are no differences that a consumer would be able to benefit from.
    Buy a DVD player, almost any DVD player (most have a pretty finite life span to beging with). Most are made in the same Far East factories so it's pretty much it's just the marketing depts that are different. There are exceptions in build quality but there is not one ioda of evidence (perception does not qualify as evidence unless it can be scientifically validated) that build quality translates into "improved" sound.
    Make sure the DVD player you choose has all the features that you might require. At a minimum, it should have analog outputs, at least one (but two is better) digital outputs. It should also be able to play CD's and DVD's in the formats that you are likely to use.
    Also keep in mind the the DVD itself is on it's way out. Blu-Ray and HDCD are coming very soon and will quickly dominate the market. Current players will not play these formats so don't spend alot on a current generation DVD Player.
    Spend all the money you save on music. Software beats hardware anyday.

    David

    How do you know they will quickly dominate the market?
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  7. #32
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    I don't know in the literal sense but in the economic sense, I consider it a slam dunk. The last three introductions of significance A/V technology all were rapidly assimilated. VHS/Beta, CD's and DVD's. It is in the the major player's best interest to re-coup the huge investment that they have in these technologies. Most consumers are sheep and can be led by multi-million dollar marketing campaigns. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

    David

  8. #33
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    Well Bikerman I can't technically tell you how an airplane flies either but I'm pretty damn sure it does. I can't understand why with your level of misunderstanding and ignorance of this hobby would bother participating on this forum.

    A $30.00 DVD player does the same job as a $3,000.00 DVD player but there is quite a difference in their ability to carry out the job. Some people appreciate the difference and some don't but to deny the difference is foolishness. A Cavalier will get you to work the same as a Cadillac but it would be foolish to say the ride or driving ability is the same. Same thing with electronics, in most instance you get what you pay for.

  9. #34
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    "Well Bikerman I can't technically tell you how an airplane flies either but I'm pretty damn sure it does."

    You know it flies and that's all you know. You know the DVD player makes sound and that's all you know. How it does it, by your own admission is beyond your level of expertise.

    I can't understand why with your level of misunderstanding and ignorance of this hobby would bother participating on this forum.

    You admit you don't understand the technical aspects but I'm the one with the "misunderstanding and ignorance?" Go figure.

    A $30.00 DVD player does the same job as a $3,000.00 DVD player but there is quite a difference in their ability to carry out the job.

    Then discuss those differences. I'm always interested in learning new things.

    Some people appreciate the difference and some don't but to deny the difference is foolishness.

    I've never denied there are differences. I'm asking for an explantion of how those differences relate to sound. Again, that involves a technical explanation which you admit you are unable to provide.

    A Cavalier will get you to work the same as a Cadillac but it would be foolish to say the ride or driving ability is the same. Same thing with electronics, in most instance you get what you pay for.

    Pure BS. What you pay and what you get are not directly related. You are talking about your perceptions and equating them with fact. That's why science became a discipline. So we as a species could learn to differenciate fact from perception.
    Your car analogy is not comparable. The difference in the handling of an automobile or the sound of the vehicle for that matter can be explained mathmatically.

    David

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    Hi! The sound of the new models of DVD-players can be prety close to an entry level or even mid-level CD-player. For the moment only very expensive DVD-player can deliver a very good sound wich is compared with the sound of a very good CD-player. Personal I own a Panasonic DVD S-47 and it's sounds better then an entry lever player from Sony and Denon and I can tell this becouse I'v made many sound's test. But if you want to achiev a very high quality of sound I recomend to you to buy a good CD-player.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by grigore
    Hi! The sound of the new models of DVD-players can be prety close to an entry level or even mid-level CD-player. For the moment only very expensive DVD-player can deliver a very good sound wich is compared with the sound of a very good CD-player. Personal I own a Panasonic DVD S-47 and it's sounds better then an entry lever player from Sony and Denon and I can tell this becouse I'v made many sound's test. But if you want to achiev a very high quality of sound I recomend to you to buy a good CD-player.
    To you, one sounds better than the other. And that's valid. You hear a difference. But if there is a noticeable difference, it can be measured.
    Not everyone hears a difference. ABX testing has humbled many an audiophile. The field of perceptual psychology is coming up with quite a bit right now. A trip to the local college library can do more for someone's understanding that a trip to the local Hi-Fi salon.

    David

  12. #37
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeman
    Also keep in mind the the DVD itself is on it's way out. Blu-Ray and HDCD are coming very soon and will quickly dominate the market. Current players will not play these formats so don't spend alot on a current generation DVD Player.
    Spend all the money you save on music. Software beats hardware anyday.
    I agree that new formats are on the way but 'quickly dominate'? I don't think so. HDTV is still a long way from domination and it has a government mandate behind it. HDCD is a 2-channel audio format and there are already superior formats available, so it's not likely that that it will ever dominate and its been available for years. To me it seems the main thing stalling the roll out of new video formats is the copy protection concerns of the movie industries versus every one else. I don't see that being resolved anytime soon. DVD may be on the way out but it will be here until every one owns HDTV's.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by noddin0ff
    I don't DVD may be on the way out but it will be here until every one owns HDTV's.

    I'm not basing my thoughts on rational behavior as you are. I'm basing it on the effectiveness of marketing. I think I'm right. I hope you're right.
    On a related note, it appears that many folks are buying HDTV's and not receiving an HD signal either through ignorance or cost considerations.

    David

  14. #39
    Big science. Hallelujah. noddin0ff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeman
    I'm not basing my thoughts on rational behavior as you are. I'm basing it on the effectiveness of marketing. I think I'm right. I hope you're right.
    On a related note, it appears that many folks are buying HDTV's and not receiving an HD signal either through ignorance or cost considerations.
    I'm sure once the future video format is settled, marketing will be aggressive and we will all be assimilated, but it is the settling that seems to be the issue...Content providers see things differently than hardware providers.

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    Hey guys. At someplace in your system the equipment must do analog. No 2 ways about it. Now think about what is the most important part of any system. The source. So get a good CD player and use the DACs in it to do what they do, right at the source. The DACs in cheap CD/DVD players are not very good and are really designed to convert the poorer quality DVD audio tracks to analog.

    Overlooking the source machine and material is a common mistake for people buying audio equipment. The most common mistake being the upgrade of speakers with a 100.00 CD/DVD player as a source. Wrong move.

    The most important 3 rules in audio. 1. SOURCE 2. SOURCE 3. SOURCE

  16. #41
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    I can't fully agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Lindhorst
    Overlooking the source machine and material is a common mistake for people buying audio equipment. The most common mistake being the upgrade of speakers with a 100.00 CD/DVD player as a source. Wrong move.

    The most important 3 rules in audio. 1. SOURCE 2. SOURCE 3. SOURCE
    Unless you're talking about the source material. The source component would fall behind the speakers in importance, IMHO. My 3 important rules in audio would be 1) source material, 2) room acoustics and 3) speakers. CD players sound more alike than different even though most of them are considered "transparent". Speaker sound varies widely, with dynamic driver enthusiasts duking it out with planar lovers and horn lovers, all of whom proclaim their way is the right way. CD players can sound diffferent but not to the same degree as speakers. I'll take a $3000 pair of speakers with a $500 CDP any day over a $500 pair of speakers and a $3000 CDP. Once you've got the speakers you want, then it's time to look at the amplification chain and then the source component. I've heard (and owned!) many systems that sounded pretty decent using a very cheap CD player and good speakers but never the other way around.

    With vinyl, my rules change, most likely because a phono cartridge is a transducer as is a speaker and is therefore subject to wide sonic differences from another cartridge. The cartridge/arm matching is critical and the table itself needs to have the proper suspension and isolation.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeman
    To you, one sounds better than the other. And that's valid. You hear a difference. But if there is a noticeable difference, it can be measured.

    David
    Jitter is indeed measured. There are probably other areas that are not yet measured, most likely because the people that are servants of measurements are already convinced those measurements don't exist. Those that are servants of better sound don't feel the need to measure. The CDP designers that I've spoken with have said that they listen to their product prior to putting it on the market so that they don't mistakenly become enamored of a poor sounding player that measures well.

  18. #43
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    Unless you're talking about the source material. The source component would fall behind the speakers in importance, IMHO. My 3 important rules in audio would be 1) source material, 2) room acoustics and 3) speakers. CD players sound more alike than different even though most of them are considered "transparent". Speaker sound varies widely, with dynamic driver enthusiasts duking it out with planar lovers and horn lovers, all of whom proclaim their way is the right way. CD players can sound diffferent but not to the same degree as speakers. I'll take a $3000 pair of speakers with a $500 CDP any day over a $500 pair of speakers and a $3000 CDP. Once you've got the speakers you want, then it's time to look at the amplification chain and then the source component. I've heard (and owned!) many systems that sounded pretty decent using a very cheap CD player and good speakers but never the other way around.

    With vinyl, my rules change, most likely because a phono cartridge is a transducer as is a speaker and is therefore subject to wide sonic differences from another cartridge. The cartridge/arm matching is critical and the table itself needs to have the proper suspension and isolation.
    But WAF can wipeout #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    Jitter is indeed measured. There are probably other areas that are not yet measured, most likely because the people that are servants of measurements are already convinced those measurements don't exist. Those that are servants of better sound don't feel the need to measure. The CDP designers that I've spoken with have said that they listen to their product prior to putting it on the market so that they don't mistakenly become enamored of a poor sounding player that measures well.
    The problem with your position is you are presenting an either/or argument. It is not. If someone can't tell a difference, then, for them there is no difference. I'm one of those people and there's a lot more like me. There are a relatively few audiophiles who can hear grass grow and/or hear Mars obiting overhead.
    The only evidence presented so far is perceptual. If there's more to it than your perception, then document it. How easy can this get?

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeman
    The problem with your position is you are presenting an either/or argument. It is not. If someone can't tell a difference, then, for them there is no difference. I'm one of those people and there's a lot more like me. There are a relatively few audiophiles who can hear grass grow and/or hear Mars obiting overhead.
    The only evidence presented so far is perceptual. If there's more to it than your perception, then document it. How easy can this get?

    David
    It IS an either/or argument, if I understand what you're saying. There's either a difference or there isn't. If even one person out of a thousand can hear a difference in a particular component, there is evidence that one exists. My perception and those of other audiophiles is all that matters. I'm certainly not responsible for those that don't hear differences! And I have documented it on cables if you care to check out the Audio Lab forum.

    The problem I have with blind testing is simple. If the participant chooses the correct component with statistical significance, DBT proponents blame the test. If the null is the result, the participants blame the test. That shows me that neither side is willing to bend on its beliefs, so what's the point except to prove to oneself? The differences I hear in CDP's or cables isn't huge by any means, but subtle. Then it becomes a matter if I am willing to pay a disproportionate amount of money for a subtle difference. That doesn't mean the differences aren't there. They are and I find them musically significant. Your mileage may vary.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by shokhead
    But WAF can wipeout #2
    I recall someone once telling me when I had a similar issue. He said "If you can't put what you want in your house, is it really your house"?

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    Thank you Mr. Lindhorst!! At least one other person besides myself has a grasp on the principles of sound quality.

    Bikeman, measurements don't mean jack! There are receivers with better spec sheets than my Krell amplifier. I guess you are going to tell me there's no difference between my amp and a receiver, I just think it sounds better because the amp cost 10 times as much as the receiver. OK, you stay in la la land. One thing that most audiophiles can agree on is that NO ONE pays attention to spec sheets. I believe that many sonic characteristics that distinguish one piece of equipment from another cannot be measured.
    You wouldn't happen to be Skeptic back under another name would you?

    Musicoverall, it looks like you have the right idea as well.
    Last edited by Mr Peabody; 05-05-2005 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Thank you Mr. Lindhorst!! At least one other person besides myself has a grasp on the principles of sound quality.
    Those aren't principles, those are perceptions. If you have principles, please list them.

    Thanks,
    David

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Bikeman, measurements don't mean jack!
    You for forgot to add, "to me" to the end of your statement. Measurements, if done properly, are a foundation of science. The spec sheets that come with audio components are not measurements in the scientific sense. They're much more often from the marketing dept than the engineers.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by musicoverall
    It IS an either/or argument, if I understand what you're saying. There's either a difference or there isn't. If even one person out of a thousand can hear a difference in a particular component, there is evidence that one exists. My perception and those of other audiophiles is all that matters. I'm certainly not responsible for those that don't hear
    You don't understand what I'm saying. If you hear a difference, then there IS a difference to you. There may or may not be an actual difference.
    Most everyone hears and no one has asked you to be responsible for that. We don't hear the same. The field of Psychology is having a wonderful time with how we preceive our senses right now. Hop over to you local college library and have a read. Facinating stuff.

    David

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