Bright sounding speakers

[Ajani]

I'm unclear how the amount someone pays for a piece of equipment has anything to do with value received. If I paid $2500 for a $10K Tata, should I keep it because I got a smokin' deal? It's still a freakin' Tata!

Certainly, Rotel is no Tata, however if the speakers didn't cause fatigue before the Rotel and they do with the Rotel, the answer seems rather obvious to me. While I agree Rotel's are more neutral than cold, there is such a thing as a bad sample. Perhaps the amp isn't performing to spec? It was a demo after all and Lord only knows what kind of abuse it's endured.

To the OP: Calibration discs come with instructions. Don't worry, it's not very difficult and most of us find the process enjoyable (at least I did ). If your rig is completely out of whack, the difference can be pleasantly startling. Good luck and have fun with it!

The statement you made (that I bolded) answers your question... if you re-read this thread, you'll see that the 1st question I asked was whether he had that problem before the Rotel... he said yes but it wasn't quite as bad... so since his setup was bright with both the Denon and the Rotel, I suggested he keep the Rotel (as it is a good brand and not a 'Tata' - whatever a tata is.. and he got a great deal )....

[SlumpBuster]

Here's my speculation. Its not the Rotel, its not the Speakers and its not the source. That is assuming that they are not defective. It is most likely the room. The Rives disc and SPL will reveal the startling room peaks and nulls that most systems have. I know my system has some crazy peaks and nulls. But that is the in room response. In my experience, "bright" means that their may be some upper frequency response peaks. It could also be described as some "sizzle." Fatigue is something different. Fatigue is going to come from a peak in the 1000 hz to 5000 hz range. That would be the range of the sound of a baby crying. Hence it hurts to listen to. The equipment all should have left the factory with relatively flat frequency response, so I don't think there is any inherent problem. The Rives disc will help reveal that.

[GMichael]

Are your floors carpetted, hard wood or something else?

[topspeed]

the 1st question I asked was whether he had that problem before the Rotel... he said yes but it wasn't quite as bad...

Thus, it became worse after inserting the Rotel. This means one of two things:
1) The Rotel is creating the sizzle
2) The transparency of the Rotel is exacerbating a problem with the source thereby creating a synergy problem

I suggested he keep the Rotel (as it is a good brand and not a 'Tata' - whatever a tata is.. and he got a great deal )....

In other words, B&W is the bad brand here, correct? Is this due to the myth that any tweeter that is not a soft dome has a tendency to sound hard? Material choice has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality. The design parameters and preferences of the engineer do. There are laid back metal tweeters just as there are hard sounding soft domes. Take your Mission example; I'm listening to a pair of 780A's as I type this and they are the most aggressive speaker I own despite their soft dome tweeters. There is a lot more to sound quality than preconceived notions.

This is all moot anyway...Slumpy has the right answer.

BTW, Tata is a POS Indian automobile manufacturer who, unfortunately, just bought Jaguar/Land Rover

[Ajani]

Thus, it became worse after inserting the Rotel. This means one of two things:
1) The Rotel is creating the sizzle
2) The transparency of the Rotel is exacerbating a problem with the source thereby creating a synergy problem

OR 3) The B&W's are bright....

In other words, B&W is the bad brand here, correct? Is this due to the myth that any tweeter that is not a soft dome has a tendency to sound hard? Material choice has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality. The design parameters and preferences of the engineer do. There are laid back metal tweeters just as there are hard sounding soft domes. Take your Mission example; I'm listening to a pair of 780A's as I type this and they are the most aggressive speaker I own despite their soft dome tweeters. There is a lot more to sound quality than preconceived notions.

I don't think a multi-award winning brand such as B&W can be a 'bad brand'.... It's a great brand but it is not the right brand for everyone..... My favourite brand (Monitor Audio) uses Metal Dome Tweeters and is often accused of being bright.... Unlike some B&W fans, I don't take offense if my brand is called bright/aggressive.... It is what it is.... and with the right equipment it sounds magical to me.... The strange part to me, is to see so many people jump to defend B&W, when even professional reviews that praise the speakers refer to them as being bright or leaning towards bright... and suggest careful equipment partnering to get the best from them... same for Monitor Audio....

The reason I suggested Mission is because they are also aggressive like B&W, but they managed to do so without listening fatigue (for me anyway) with the samp amp and CD player that the OP has...

This is all moot anyway...Slumpy has the right answer.

Quite possibly....

BTW, Tata is a POS Indian automobile manufacturer who, unfortunately, just bought Jaguar/Land Rover

That sucks....

[blackraven]

Big Money, you should see if you can take a Marantz SA8001 SACDP home and audition it to see if it makes a difference. I'm betting it will make a huge difference. My good friend has Triangle Floor Stander speakers which are light on bass and heavy on mid range and treble, very fatiguing as far as I was concerned. He was using a modded Marantz 5001 CDP and upgraded to the SA8001. It really warmed up the sound and took away the fatigue. It took away some of the glare and gave it a richer bass and warmer sound. His speakers sound awesome now.

[Bigmoney]

Everyone's advice is plausible. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think the first thing I should do is try the rives cd. This way if it's a room problem I just saved hundreds of dollars and a ton of time auditioning equipment. If the latter does not solve my issue, I will try keeping the rotel and experimenting with cdps such as the 8001. Agaun, correct me if this should not be the order in evaluating my system, I will then look at the b and w's. While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct? And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.

[blackraven]

Its worth a try, but ultimately I think your will have to do one of 3 things, replace your speakers, CDP or amp. Room treatments and positioning may help some, but glare from CDP, speakers or amp is usually fixed be replacing the offending piece of equipment or some other part of the system to compensate for the high frequency's that are so irritating.

[Ajani]

Everyone's advice is plausible. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think the first thing I should do is try the rives cd. This way if it's a room problem I just saved hundreds of dollars and a ton of time auditioning equipment. If the latter does not solve my issue, I will try keeping the rotel and experimenting with cdps such as the 8001. Agaun, correct me if this should not be the order in evaluating my system, I will then look at the b and w's. While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct? And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.

That sounds like a good plan...

worse case scenario: you get the cd and still have to buy new Speakers/CD Player/Amp..... at least you can still use the CD to optimize your new setup... so you won't lose out...

best case: The CD saves you hundreds on upgrades...

And yes, B&W are great speakers apart from the forwardness....

[markw]

Sometimes, what "everyone" says is a great speaker simply doesn't fit in with what you want from a speaker. That's why they have so many different ones. Personal preference rules more in this choice than anywhere else in this hobby.

While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct?

Great speakers, yes, but not for everyone. You either like 'em and can live with what they do, both right or wrong, or you can't and move on.

Sounds like my old '64 Jaguar 3.8. It was a great car and the ladies loved it but it spent more time in the shop than on hte road. After a while I redefined my definition of a great car.

No harm in having tastes that differ from others but trying to force their likes on yourself because others like them may be expensive, unsuccessful and, ultimately, lead to lingering dissatisfaction.

And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.

Maybe, maybe not. Remember, their sound is the result of intentional design goals. You may harm other parts of their sound you actually like.

Speaking of which, I don't see you praising anything about their performance in any other areas. You might want to think about what it is that makes you want to change everything else in order to fit these particular speakers into your life.

But remember, it's not just you that finds them a bit forward. Maybe there's something to that, eh?

[Bigmoney]

Problem is, I bought my speakers and rotel not very long ago, under two months. This is my first set up I can begin to consider mid-fi. I am 18 years old and still in highschool so I haven't really defined my tastes, all I know is that I must have sensitive ears because the highs really heart em'. I don't have much money, I am a waiter and saved up very long to create a good stereo system because I truly have a love for music. I am in no way financially able to spend money at will, or waste money at all. Therefore, I cannot afford to let the long term investment I made on these speakers and amp to go to waste. I figure if I was to sell the speakers and amp and replace them I would probabably lose 250 dollars or so in the process as I bought the speakers with the stands and amp for a total of 1100 before tax. Hopefully, later on in life I'll have the green to toss around a little more, but right now it's not the case. It's unfortunate that you all don't seem to believe the rives cd will solve my issue. However, I am sure, that you all have been in my position before in your life, that is money being tight. I figured those of you that have may be able to lend some advice from first hand experience. I haven't heard any other high end speakers other than b and w because that is all my dealer sells as far a speakers are concerned. He says " they are the best speakers that can be had at all price points" and that is the reason they only carry b and w.

[markw]

Old proverb: "When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

You bought them from him less than two months ago and he won't let you exchange or return them?

A word of advice, guy. That dealer is no friend of yours. Flee, flee as quickly as you can.

[Bigmoney]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?

[markw]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?

IMNSHO, easily.

but first you need to know what you want. So far,you know what you don't want.

What else have you listened to, and don't get too hung up on that "hi-end" label. It can get you into trouble.

hint... Listen to everything you can.

If you don't mind mail order, check out http://www.audioadvisor.com. Good service and they have a liberal exchange policy. Plus, on orders over $200 there's no shipping charge.

[Brett A]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?

No harm in asking. My regular shop has a 30-day money back and a 90 full exchange policy.
The fact that he sells only B&W's seems a bit weird to me.

[Bigmoney]

Yeah they have three large listening rooms and not a small store filled with nothing but b and w. If it is thirty day return which I am just outside of would you return the speakers still? Do you think there are better b and w speakers for me?

[markw]

Yeah they have three large listening rooms and not a small store filled with nothing but b and w. If it is thirty day return which I am just outside of would you return the speakers still?

I'd give it a shot. Give him the same spiel you gave us :high schookl student, working, new to this whole hi-fi thing. sometimes salespeople do have a little compassion.

If they don't, I'd never set foot in there again. I think they took advantage of you.

Do you think there are better b and w speakers for me?

Speaker manufactures generally design their lineup to have a characteristic "house" sound. You've just had a taste of theirs.

I'd take the money and run.

[Brett A]

It could be helpful before you really decide on what action to take, or if you even need to take any action, to get away from these posts, maybe even spend some time away from the equipment.

I find it necessary to occasionally step away from all the stimulation and obsession to get a fresh, rested perspective on things.

Listening fatigue can be cumulative. I think it has a sister too: thinking fatigue. I bet a few people here other than myself have gone from long listening sessions with their comfy non-fatiguing systems out to a restaurant or busy city street and found themselves sensitive and irritable. Sometime the organism (that'd be us) need a break from all the input.

[Feanor]

Not as bright do you think it's the amp

Yes, it certainly could be the amp. Let me ask: do all your recordings sound bright, or do some sound OK?

I have found that a certain portion of my recordings were quite bright and harsh which I attibuted to bad recording practice. However when I improved my amp many of these bright recordings went from being unlistenably bright & harsh to just a little bright but clean and airy. Many recordings "improved" as I progress from Phase Linear 400 => NAD C270 => Bel Canto eVo => Monarchy SM-70 Pro. Going to a tube preamp further improved things.

Of course there are other culprits for bright/harsh sound apart from speakers:

• Wall behind refections in case of dipole speakers
• Relections from the side wall or ceiling
• CD player or DAC
• Preamp
• RFI, (radio frequency interference, mostly affecting digital components)
• Cables and interconnects

[Feanor]

.... I haven't heard any other high end speakers other than b and w because that is all my dealer sells as far a speakers are concerned. He says " they are the best speakers that can be had at all price points" and that is the reason they only carry b and w.

Your dealer is either (1) just an idiot, or (2) self-serving, more likely, or (3) both, most likely. See my comments under the Circuit City thread.

[basite]

Your dealer is either (1) just an idiot, or (2) self-serving, more likely, or (3) both, most likely. See my comments under the Circuit City thread.

I completely agree.

B&W is a brand like any other decent brand, only B&W happens to be slightly more famous...

and that B&W is the best speaker you can get at that price point is your dealer's opinion. Personally, I find Monitor audio giving much more for their money as B&W, certainly here in Europe.

and your dealer should start listening to other brands too, something really exotic, like avalon, or Wilson, or verity audio, or something like those...
heck, he should even listen to Thiel!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

BM, it seems you still have several options....

1) You could try changing speakers, amp or cd player... (of those three, I'd suggest the speakers - you have many good alternatives to B&W in the $600 or less price range)..

2) You could try selling the Denon and buying a preamp (maybe a tubed one) to tame the current setup....

3) You could get the test cd and try to optimize the room with additional treatments to tame the brightness...

4) Finally, you could listen to your music for short periods at lower volumes untill you adjust to the brightness....

[Bigmoney]

I would be willing to spend up to 800 for the speakers, anyone have goo success with audiogon. By the way, feanor, some recordings are much less bright than others.

[Ajani]

Many people swear by audiogon... I've never tried it though....

Also, are you looking for bookshelves or floorstanders?

[Brett A]

I would be willing to spend up to 800 for the speakers, anyone have goo success with audiogon. By the way, feanor, some recordings are much less bright than others.

With $800, you have more options than you can process! Alot of hi end shops let you take pieces home and try them for a few days. Do you have any other options near you besides the B&W only guy?