Blind listening comparisons

[hifitommy]

blind testing requires WILLING participants and proper implementation of the procedure. i think a good place for this activity would be at an audio-fest such as the rocky mtn or CES. professionals and novices alike are attending these events and there is a wealth of equipment to choose from.

one of the problems with dbt is an internal fear on the part of the participant of failure to be RIGHT. hand in hand with this is the experience with or especially the lack thereof of the actual sound of the instruments and what they should sound like in a given original recording environment.

one of my biggest repulsions to dbt is the group of people who insist that its the only valid way to pick components. sorry, but that just isnt so.

the actual cost of the gear has little to do with my choices unless the item is out of my willingness to pay the price. certain items like the nad 3020 would suffice as a lifelong component if need be. it want hard to pick the arc sp3a1 over every other preamp i have had in my system but i could go back to the 3020 and not be sorry if it became necessary. i would most assuredly pick the 3020 over the adcom gfp565 that the arc replaced.

[mlsstl]

....one of the problems with dbt is an internal fear on the part of the participant of failure to be RIGHT.....

....one of my biggest repulsions to dbt is the group of people who insist that its the only valid way to pick components. sorry, but that just isnt so. .

Two comments.

First, the anxiety factor is a red herring. What about the group pressure of sighted listening? That's a very big (and well proven) bias potential, whether toward compliance or a contrarian position.

A dbt for the purposes of research need not embarrass anyone or make them anxious - participants don't have to be told they were right or wrong.

However the central point is that people are free to buy equipment any way they want and believe what they wish to believe. A person's daily listening after the purchase will certainly be sighted, and if subjective influences help that along, great! Many people do not find it necessary to divide every belief they have into the physical and psychological components.

I'm in the camp that thinks serious scientific research needs good controls for subjective factors. However, the purchase of a stereo component is not serious science research and never will be. It is a personal preference and bias is fully part of the process.

That said, the point of bias is that it is unique to each individual. If fat wire interconnects covered in woven red cloth influence one listener positively, just keep in mind it may have the opposite effect on someone else. That's why so many "big" differences often get very small (or even disappear) when a level of blindness is introduced. One party may lose a positive factor while another one loses a negative.

[tube fan]

blind testing requires WILLING participants and proper implementation of the procedure. i think a good place for this activity would be at an audio-fest such as the rocky mtn or CES. professionals and novices alike are attending these events and there is a wealth of equipment to choose from.

one of the problems with dbt is an internal fear on the part of the participant of failure to be RIGHT. hand in hand with this is the experience with or especially the lack thereof of the actual sound of the instruments and what they should sound like in a given original recording environment.

one of my biggest repulsions to dbt is the group of people who insist that its the only valid way to pick components. sorry, but that just isnt so.

the actual cost of the gear has little to do with my choices unless the item is out of my willingness to pay the price. certain items like the nad 3020 would suffice as a lifelong component if need be. it want hard to pick the arc sp3a1 over every other preamp i have had in my system but i could go back to the 3020 and not be sorry if it became necessary. i would most assuredly pick the 3020 over the adcom gfp565 that the arc replaced.

You don't get it. The blind listeners CANNOT be wrong any more that blind tasters can be wrong. They each prefer one piece of audio equipment over another or one wine over another. Everyone is right!!! Would you tell someone who preferred an inexpensive wine over a Parker approved 95 point wine, tasted blind, that they were "wrong" to prefer the
cheaper wine? Would you tell someone who preferred MUCH less expensive audio gear that they were wrong not to select more expensive equipment?

[Ajani]

You don't get it. The blind listeners CANNOT be wrong any more that blind tasters can be wrong. They each prefer one piece of audio equipment over another or one wine over another. Everyone is right!!! Would you tell someone who preferred an inexpensive wine over a Parker approved 95 point wine, tasted blind, that they were "wrong" to prefer the
cheaper wine? Would you tell someone who preferred MUCH less expensive audio gear that they were wrong not to select more expensive equipment?

Cannot be wrong??? Seriously???

So if I say I prefer the sound of an Emotiva CDP and AMP with Cervin Vega speakers over some raved about tube integrated and turntable with Magnepan 3.6 speakers, no audiophiles will claim that I am deaf or have no taste in music?

There is all manner of snobbery in this hobby... Just as there is in wine tasting or any other hobby where loads of money can be spent...

Some resent anything remotely affordable, while others resent anything expensive (which is part of why DBT has not caught on IMO, as it is often associated with persons who think there are no differences in amps or cables and that anyone who spends more than X amount is insane)...

[tube fan]

Cannot be wrong??? Seriously???

So if I say I prefer the sound of an Emotiva CDP and AMP with Cervin Vega speakers over some raved about tube integrated and turntable with Magnepan 3.6 speakers, no audiophiles will claim that I am deaf or have no taste in music?

There is all manner of snobbery in this hobby... Just as there is in wine tasting or any other hobby where loads of money can be spent...

Some resent anything remotely affordable, while others resent anything expensive (which is part of why DBT has not caught on IMO, as it is often associated with persons who think there are no differences in amps or cables and that anyone who spends more than X amount is insane)...

Of course, you are leaving out just ONE thing: YOU WOULD NEVER prefer the cervin Vega system!!! DUH!!!

[tube fan]

But, let's just say, that you actually DID prefer the Cervin Vega system, should you buy another system which you liked less?

[JoeE SP9]

Gotta' agree with you Ajani. Most people who constantly push for DBT'ing are firmly in the "if it costs more than I think it should it's snake oil" camp. There are a lot of DBT proponents at AK. Almost without exception they are against anything high end, claiming that paying more than they think is appropriate is wasteful.

If you want to use DBT to decide what to buy or use, that's your business. If you don't, that's also your business. I wish DBT (objectivists) proponents would stop trying to make everyone follow their lead. What attracted me to the subjectivist camp is it's mantra; "Forget analyzing, listen and enjoy". That's what I try to do.

In my experience, most systems set up by strict objectivists almost always sound awful. The ones that don't sound awful just sound "blah".

[mlsstl]

What attracted me to the subjectivist camp is it's mantra; "Forget analyzing, listen and enjoy".

If they only left it at that!

Unfortunately, one doesn't have to read too far in most audio magazines or web sites to find that many of the subjectivists are just as vociferous in considering their opinion a sacrosanct universality.

That is just as annoying as the objective type who thinks one or two measurements, taken in isolation, fully describes the sound of something.

If they could only recognize their opinion is no more than that, things would be less contentious. One of the basic points of subjectivity is that it tends to be specific to the individual - a characteristic that impresses one person may do nothing for another and be a negative for a third.

On a side note to Tube Fan, the Cerwin Vega CLS-215 got a very nice review in The Absolute Sound back in 2009. I've never heard them, but that's quite a coup for a $1K speaker.

[Feanor]

.... What attracted me to the subjectivist camp is it's mantra; "Forget analyzing, listen and enjoy". That's what I try to do.
...

If they only left it at that!
...

Green chicklet for you, Misstl.

...
Unfortunately, one doesn't have to read too far in most audio magazines or web sites to find that many of the subjectivists are just as vociferous in considering their opinion a sacrosanct universality.

That is just as annoying as the objective type who thinks one or two measurements, taken in isolation, fully describes the sound of something.

If they could only recognize their opinion is no more than that, things would be less contentious. One of the basic points of subjectivity is that it tends to be specific to the individual - a characteristic that impresses one person may do nothing for another and be a negative for a third.
....

I'm ultimately a subjectivist myself when it comes to equipment. I don't pay much heed to published performance specs (excepting, to an extent, power ratings). For me the greater issue is accurate vs. euphonic sound.

However -- not surprisingly, maybe -- the euphonic school tends to subjectivism. The rub is euphonic/subjectivist school are constantly telling us what is good sound and what we ought to like. However when you ask what they like, they either refuse describe the characteristics of their preference, (like Tube Fan), or they wax on-and-on about "organic", "holistic", or other such non-descriptive b/s.

[E-Stat]

You don't get it. The blind listeners CANNOT be wrong any more that blind tasters can be wrong. They each prefer one piece of audio equipment over another or one wine over another.

There really are two separate aspects here: the ability to correctly identify any given component as compared with another and preference. In the former, there is only one correct answer. You can either successfully identify a given component blind or you cannot. Or, for the link I provided, you are able to correctly identify the intentionally distorted signal vs the original at a given level or you are not. As you indicate, however, there is no *correct* preference.

rw

[JoeE SP9]

But, let's just say, that you actually DID prefer the Cervin Vega system, should you buy another system which you liked less?

No. IMO you should buy what you personally like. I too have heard very good things about the CV XLS series speakers.

[tube fan]

Gotta' agree with you Ajani. Most people who constantly push for DBT'ing are firmly in the "if it costs more than I think it should it's snake oil" camp. There are a lot of DBT proponents at AK. Almost without exception they are against anything high end, claiming that paying more than they think is appropriate is wasteful.

If you want to use DBT to decide what to buy or use, that's your business. If you don't, that's also your business. I wish DBT (objectivists) proponents would stop trying to make everyone follow their lead. What attracted me to the subjectivist camp is it's mantra; "Forget analyzing, listen and enjoy". That's what I try to do.

In my experience, most systems set up by strict objectivists almost always sound awful. The ones that don't sound awful just sound "blah".

CLEARLY, this makes NO sense! In a DBT you don't know the cost of the equipment. Your evaluation is based solely on your listening evaluation. You may well prefer the more expensive equipment. Those who have a bias for or against expensive equipment must judge based solely on their blind listening.

[JoeE SP9]

CLEARLY, this makes NO sense! In a DBT you don't know the cost of the equipment. Your evaluation is based solely on your listening evaluation. You may well prefer the more expensive equipment. Those who have a bias for or against expensive equipment must judge based solely on their blind listening.

With all due respect, listening to music is what this "passion" is about. DBT'ing is short term, rarely reveals any differences and is about testing. Subtle differences are usually masked because of the short time period involved, unfamiliar gear, strange acoustics and shortness of the musical selections. I've participated in several DBT tests in my 45 years of active involvement with stereo gear. None of them proved anything except, short term listening to unfamiliar gear in unfamiliar acoustics doesn't reveal much of a difference.

After listening to two amplifiers over a three month period, I was able to identify (under DBT conditions) which one was in the chain about 90% of the time. The test was conducted in my room with my gear and acoustics I'm familiar with. The longer time spent listening to each amp allowed me to become familiar with their individual characteristics. DBT'ing usually doesn't allow this. Consequently only "gross" differences are audible if there are any "gross" differences. The point here is that many differences are very subtle.

I don't give a rat's ass what a given piece of gear costs. Cosmetics are just as unimportant to me. As I posted earlier, if DBT works for you that's your business. I'm not interested in testing anything. Frankly, I don't understand why some have an urge to quantify everything. I'm going to listen to some music (Best Of Blue Note) and enjoy myself.

Enjoying yourself, not testing yourself is what this hobby is all about.

[tube fan]

I have CONSISTENTLY advised to conduct LONG term blind listening tests. I recently compared the Fosgate Phono unit to my reference Counterpoint SA2, the AR PH3, and the Auditorum 23 trannie, over hundreds of hours. Each and every record that I rated blind favored the Fosgate. Yes, I bought the wonderful Fosgate phono unit. It only takes one other person to set up the blind test, and, after taking as long as you want, you KNOW which unit you prefer.