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  1. #1
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    "Best" Processor 2.5-3.5k???

    Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages welcome to the show that never stops...upgradeitis!!!

    In another thread, our own wise Mr. Peabody pointed out that I'm probably selling my system short by using any receiver and I'm willing to entertain this. Up to this point I've been seriously considering the Onkyo 875 or 905 ( http://www.productwiki.com/onkyo-tx-nr905/ ) but I am ever curious and would appreciate some discussion on this.

    After some self-observation I have noted the following habits: 60% 2-channel listening, 30% multi-channel SACD, 10% movies...obviously these priorities will have an impact on the decision.

    Clearly sound is the preeminent concern but I liked the possibility of video upconversion and integrating a computer into my main setup. The sell points on the Onkyo seem to be the Burr Brown DACs and Realta vid, and while the demos I've seen are impressive I'm also willing to admit that I would rather eschew some bells and whistles in order get the best possible sound quality for the buck.

    I also don't have anything against buying used if the right deal came along. My question is, would an old Krell or McIntosh or MacCormack(or whatever) necessarily sound better than the newest and "bestest"? I could understand if this was just a two-channel system but multi-channel is a different beast.

    Aesthetics and ease of navigation are also a consideration, as is price. I have other hobbies, a girlfriend, and a variety of money-consuming activities. Please don't suggest any 12k Lexicon behemoths. Ain't gonna happen.

    Any comments,suggestions, or shared experiences would be welcome...and (gives evil glare toward Jayra and Bernd) better make sure the unit has a phono stage...

    Gracias

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    As your main purpose is 60% music you owe it to yourself to pursue a good preamp and you will absolutely reap the benefits in both music and movies. Just think when you watch a movie how much of the soundtrack is music either to accentuate or background, and the additional impact and clarity of other sound effects and dialog. Also, if sound stage is better with better electronics, wouldn't that hold true with a movie? I've found the speaker to speaker travel of sound effects to be much more thrilling as I've gone up in quality of A/V processors. One of the main reasons I haven't upgraded to a more modern processor is I'm afraid I won't be able to afford something close to the performance of my Primare. I got a really good deal on it. I can understand some one using a receiver for budget or feature purposes but anyone who says their receiver preamp is as good as a higher end dedicated preamp is just wrong. That's like saying there is no difference between an Adcom and a Krell preamp, or difference between any entry level vs high end. Do you know anyone who would let you borrow even a stereo preamp so you can hear what your system is capable of? At least if you were convinced of the gain you could receive that would be additional information when analyzing your decision.

    I can understand your reluctance to NAD's T175, I wish one of us could hear one. The Master Series I would be happy with the sound but it lacks in features It's in your price range, I heard it briefly and it was pretty good. I haven't done the feature research for you but also look at the Arcam at around $2.5k and next week is CES I'm waiting to see what new features will be on the Anthem AVM-30 or whatever their $3k processor will be. I've always heard Rotel's weakness was preamps but if the features are their, they should mate with your Mac pretty well.

    I'm not sure how a brand like Krell and McCormack would mate with Mac as they have different sonic characteristics, sometimes opposites attract and sometimes, well they don't. As you are already aware the processors we know about in the high end will leave you wanting in features. Classe' had processors in your range. To be honest with you I have respect for Mac but I was disappointed in the sound of their processor I heard. I can't remember the model and it was a couple years ago. I heard it and the Anthem AVM-20 at the same time and based on that audition I would have taken the Anthem hands down and never thought twice. If you notice the Anthem has grown quite a bit in popularity.

    This should be a good thread for us both, modernizing is in the back of my mind but it's not a must do for me. As I get more devices with HDMI it would be nice to have that switching. My TV only has one HDMI input. Of course, upgrading TV's could be about the same expense if not cheaper.

    If I find something that I'm willing to switch to I'll probably post my 31.7 at $1.5k obo. It's an excellent preamp in sound but was built before HDMI was a thought. It's not far behind on decoding but probably not the piece for some one really wanting video switching. It does have the MC analog inputs. This is another thing I'm waiting to see where it goes, are we going to be forced to use MC analog to keep the best HD audio decoding or will the HDMI come into being what it's supposed to be. I was surprised to learn that a hand full of electronics manufacturers were behind the HDMI organization. I couldn't figure out if that was so how HDMI could be such a kaotic project. But that's another topic.

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    2ch=60%, Movie, music video=40% for me. I couldn't get any happier with my Pre/Pro Anthem AVM-30. MSRP is $3k, new. But you can get it used "BuyItNow" on Ebay for around $1.7k. I matched mine with an Amp Anthem A5, same price when new and used. They are the most money I spent on my sound system and I love every momment of it. I just wish I have more time to spend alone in my well treated HT room. For me, it was the best bang for buck. I moved up from Harman Kardon receiver AVR435 and oh boy what diff it does made. It provides more depth, the vocal is more focus and more live. When the lights out, I thought Diana Krall was standing on the stage singing just for me. Music equipments are more real. Great sound stage. You will love the Anthem. They are class A. I audiction some of Rotels from HomeTheaterStore.com, but I went for Anthem.

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    gjpham, have you thought about upgrading your mains and center? I think you could improve your sound even more. The center and mains should really match for one thing and although JBL are decent enough speakers your electronics would shine even more with an upgrade to speakers. Maybe try some Paradigm.

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    Yes, as matter of fact, I'm watching this Thiel CS7 at AudioGon right now. But if I go with this new route, I will go broke to match them with center and surrounds. My in-law has the same one laying around(laying around, can you believe that?) and he would let me take home to audition this afternoon. They are 165lbs each, so I'm looking for additional muscles. My concern is that I'm not sure my Anthem Amp A5 will be able to push this monster Thiel CS7.2. He always commented that my JBLs, were also handed down from him, are nice and clear for music but there is something wrong with the bass and the voice. We are cretical listeners so will see. What's your thoughts? It's my opolozi for stealing the thread.
    http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....ull&1200104776

  6. #6
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses gentlemen.

    Mr. P., did you hear the Mac with other Mac equipment or was it a mix-and-match?

    When I think about it, the features are all convenience-based. Most of things I want to do I can accomplish using other means, albeit with less panache and more cabling and the rest...

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    Bobsticks, the Mac processor was with a Mac amp and I believe Paradigm speakers. The Anthem was with Anthem amp. I was more than a little surprised at the audition. But who knows what the settings were. If you had an opportunity you should definitely chekc it for yourself.

    gjpham, Thiel are excellent speakers. The CS-7 may be a task for the Anthem but if you got a good enough deal, it could be worth upgrading amps. 5 channel amps are pretty reasonable used on Audiogon. Also, www.crutchfield.com is carrying Thiel now and may be able to get you into some financing for a center channel or if the Ebay don't work out, look for a more comparable Thiel package for your amp. It's a big plus to be able to audition a pair in your home, wish I was there to help you carry those babies. I'd suggest looking for a Krell, Bryston, Classe', something along those lines for an amp to drive the
    7's if you got them.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    My good friend bought a used Sony 777ES SACD player and then had it upgraded by Vacuum State Electronics. This was not cheap, but the sonic improvement was undeniable. http://www.proaudioreview.com/august05/Vacuum.shtml

    Since his system is different than mine it's hard to do apples to apples comparisons, but the upgraded unit easily matches and probably exceeds my Levinson 360S performance on Redbook CD, the 360S doesn't do SACD.

    I don't think there are any outboard SACD decoders so if you want all in one solution a SACD player is the only answer. Many have said good things about the Phillips players, the only one I've heard (can't remember the model) wasn't that special.
    Herman;

    My stuff:
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  9. #9
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Thanks for the responses gentlemen.

    Mr. P., did you hear the Mac with other Mac equipment or was it a mix-and-match?

    When I think about it, the features are all convenience-based. Most of things I want to do I can accomplish using other means, albeit with less panache and more cabling and the rest...

    I wouldn't bother about having HDMI or not, neither do I care about USB really...

    For me, sound quality is more important then 'functions'...

    I'd definately look at the Mc's (they would of course make a beautiful match with yer poweramp
    if not Mcintosh, then I'd definately look at Krell, and Primare. I heard their processor once and was truly impressed.

    Gjpham: Those Thiels are exellent speakers (ok, I'm a little biased, since I own a pair of CS2.3's myself, but anyways). I think you're going to LOVE them, and if you don't, feel free to send them over to me for proper 'disposal' ...
    btw, if you're ever thinking of upgrading your electronics once you have the Thiels, definately look at Mcintosh, it's a match made in heaven with Thiel...


    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
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    MIT AVt 2 IC's
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    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  10. #10
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    Another vote for the Anthem, i have been using an AVM-30 and it does all that i ask it to.

    bill
    Speakers-Jm Labs
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  11. #11
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Hey bill, I was hoping you'd pop your head in here. Coupla questions for ya, does the AVM30, or for that matter the 20, have multi-channel analog inputs for an SACD player? I see units called the AVM2 on sale on ebay all the time, is that the same as the AVM20? Finally, it seems as if you have a few units with HDMI, can I assume you have a TV with multiple inputs?

    Gracias

  12. #12
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    My good friend bought a used Sony 777ES SACD player and then had it upgraded by Vacuum State Electronics. This was not cheap, but the sonic improvement was undeniable. http://www.proaudioreview.com/august05/Vacuum.shtml

    Since his system is different than mine it's hard to do apples to apples comparisons, but the upgraded unit easily matches and probably exceeds my Levinson 360S performance on Redbook CD, the 360S doesn't do SACD.

    I don't think there are any outboard SACD decoders so if you want all in one solution a SACD player is the only answer. Many have said good things about the Phillips players, the only one I've heard (can't remember the model) wasn't that special.
    Thanks for the response Herman. A new player isn't necessarily out of the question, although it would take the system in a whole new direction...and still leave the per/pro question unanswered.

    It came down to the fact that I was unhappy with both the performance and the functionality of the Yammie, and also saw the opportunity to inflict this hobby on a friend At this point my main rig sits in silence, directionless, waiting for me to decide whether I want the ultimate computer/media center or to take a more traditional approach.
    Last edited by bobsticks; 01-05-2008 at 05:10 PM.

  13. #13
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    Learn and compare them here. http://www.anthemav.com/
    If you want some highlight and short cut, here's what I know. The AVM-50 has HDMI inputs but it cost more and hard to find them used on Ebay. You can compare the AVM-2 and AVM-20 here: http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/frames/mixfr.html
    If you decide to buy AVM-2, A friend of mine wants to sell his for $600 shipped. Yes the AVM20 has 5.1 analog and I'm sure my 30 has that too.

  14. #14
    I took a headstart... basite's Avatar
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    btw, That Anthem Statement D1 looks very interesting

    good luck with the search Mark!

    Keep them spinning,
    Bert.
    Life is music!

    Mcintosh MA6400 Integrated
    Double Advent speakers
    Thiel CS2.3's
    *DIY Lenco L75 TT
    * SME 3012 S2
    * Rega RB-301
    *Denon DL-103 in midas body
    *Denon DL-304
    *Graham slee elevator EXP & revelation
    *Lehmann audio black cube SE
    Marantz CD5001 OSE
    MIT AVt 2 IC's
    Sonic link Black earth IC's
    Siltech MXT New york IC's
    Kimber 4VS speakercable
    Furutech powercord and plugs.

    I'm a happy 20 year old...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Hey bill, I was hoping you'd pop your head in here. Coupla questions for ya, does the AVM30, or for that matter the 20, have multi-channel analog inputs for an SACD player? I see units called the AVM2 on sale on ebay all the time, is that the same as the AVM20? Finally, it seems as if you have a few units with HDMI, can I assume you have a TV with multiple inputs?

    Gracias
    Hey man

    Yes the avm-30 has one 5.1 analog input. I believe that the avm2 was just an older model that was replaced by the 20.Unfortunately my set only has one HDMI input so the wiring goes like this:Bluray-component video to tv, 5.1 analog to Anthem also coax digital
    HD-DVD- HDMI to tv,Coax digital to Anthem

    Calypso--Component to Anthem to tv, coax digital to Anthem,2 channel analog to Anthem.

    bill
    Speakers-Jm Labs
    Disc player-Sim Audio Moon Calypso
    Pre-amp-Sim Audio P-5.3 SE
    dac= sim audio moon 300d

    Amp-Sim Audio Moon I-3
    Display-Toshiba CRT
    Wires and Cables-Kimber,Straight Wire, ixos, Gutwire and shunyata research
    Sacd-Cambridge Audio
    Bluray--Sony and Cambridge Audio
    Remote-- Harmony 1100

    Power-- Monster

  16. #16
    Forum Regular N. Abstentia's Avatar
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    Have you looked into the Outlaw Audio 990? Sounds every bit as good as the Anthem, has more features, and costs less than $1000. Use that extra money on your speakers. The only knock on the Outlaw is the lack of HDMI inputs, but since you said that was not important you won't care about that. It does have DVI though, so if you DO have some HDMI sources you can get some $15 DVI-HDMI cables for them.

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    Two of my older friends have that model, 990 is OutLaw's top model. They both have 7500 Amp and boy they can be pretty loud too. Great example if you are in budget. I once considered it myself. Outlaw is not class A. . http://outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

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    Have you heard both the Outlaw and Anthem? That's a pretty bold statement. If it's true the 990 would have to be the best value in a preamp going.

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    I agree with Mr P., i highly doubt the Outlaw would match the Anthem in sound quality, the Anthem is a very good component and i have not heard the Outlaw myself but i have read several reviews and i have seen nothing to indicate that it would be on the same level as the Anthem sound or feature wise.

    bill
    Speakers-Jm Labs
    Disc player-Sim Audio Moon Calypso
    Pre-amp-Sim Audio P-5.3 SE
    dac= sim audio moon 300d

    Amp-Sim Audio Moon I-3
    Display-Toshiba CRT
    Wires and Cables-Kimber,Straight Wire, ixos, Gutwire and shunyata research
    Sacd-Cambridge Audio
    Bluray--Sony and Cambridge Audio
    Remote-- Harmony 1100

    Power-- Monster

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    - Alrighty, with additional help, the Theils are up next to my JBL L100t3. I'd like to write a short review but feel giulty stealing this thread.
    - I heard both OutLaws with 2 diff setup. One with OutLaw Amp and Dynaudio speakers. One with 3 diff. powerful seperate Amps and JBL speakers. So how are they compare with my Anthem AVM-30? I didn't regret spending more money for the Anthem. Oh wait, the in-law that let me borrow the Theil has one too. He won a bid on Ebay and once brought it to my house, hooked it up to my system and compared with my AVM-30. We tested on 2-ch for music. How was it? It's not bad for $600 but I wouldn't save money and go back with it. I'm happy with my Anthem and ev1 else in here who has Anthem should have thought the same too, right?

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    Come on give us a bit of info on the Thiels. How did you like them, how did the Anthem amp do driving them?

    One thing I can't figure out about the Outlaw, unless they have a warehouse full yet to sell, is why they still use DVI. They do have the 990 which is $899.00 and looks to be built pretty good but the proof is in the sound.

    For what it's worth NAD's website shows several of their pieces getting awards from the Absolute Sound and different ones, including the older processor T163 and one of their stereo preamps, I think C272.

    Anthem's D1 and D2 are big bucks, they are up with Krell's big cinema gear.

  22. #22
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    I only have very little to add to this post. I would not purchase anything that did not have a HDMI hookup. This hookup is the future of audio. There is no use in spending good money to support old audio formats. DVI cannot pass audio do IMO the Outlaw is out.

    Two channel CD's sound better over HDMI, as a matter of fact so does SACD. The new audio platform for the future will be Bluray disc, as some high resolution PCM recordings should be out on the format around the middle of this year. HD DVD already has three high resolution PCM recordings released. The CD as a format is already heading towards the sunset with downloads taking over, so there is just no reason(unless you have a huge catalog of two channel CD and vinyl) to continue buying equipment optimized for this format.

    This is just my opinion, but I am more of a foward thinker than most. A pre-pro with a HDMI input is a must. If you want to expand a single input into three, then Oppo has an excellent video/audio HDMI v1.3a switcher that cost just $99. I have purchased two of these so I can hookup as many as six HDMI sources to my hometheater.
    Sir Terrence

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    Come on give us a bit of info on the Thiels. How did you like them, how did the Anthem amp do driving them?....
    I post it up here, didn't feel like stealing this thread.
    http://forums.audioreview.com/showth...497#post220497

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    I only have very little to add to this post. I would not purchase anything that did not have a HDMI hookup. This hookup is the future of audio. There is no use in spending good money to support old audio formats. DVI cannot pass audio do IMO the Outlaw is out.

    Two channel CD's sound better over HDMI, as a matter of fact so does SACD. The new audio platform for the future will be Bluray disc, as some high resolution PCM recordings should be out on the format around the middle of this year. HD DVD already has three high resolution PCM recordings released. The CD as a format is already heading towards the sunset with downloads taking over, so there is just no reason(unless you have a huge catalog of two channel CD and vinyl) to continue buying equipment optimized for this format.

    This is just my opinion, but I am more of a foward thinker than most. A pre-pro with a HDMI input is a must. If you want to expand a single input into three, then Oppo has an excellent video/audio HDMI v1.3a switcher that cost just $99. I have purchased two of these so I can hookup as many as six HDMI sources to my hometheater.
    Sir T

    Can you elaborate on those high def audio releases, my impressions were that we were some time away from those.
    When you say 2 channel cd sound better over HDMI what are you comparing it to, do you mean compared to analog or coax? I would think such a comparison would be hardware dependent.

    bill
    Speakers-Jm Labs
    Disc player-Sim Audio Moon Calypso
    Pre-amp-Sim Audio P-5.3 SE
    dac= sim audio moon 300d

    Amp-Sim Audio Moon I-3
    Display-Toshiba CRT
    Wires and Cables-Kimber,Straight Wire, ixos, Gutwire and shunyata research
    Sacd-Cambridge Audio
    Bluray--Sony and Cambridge Audio
    Remote-- Harmony 1100

    Power-- Monster

  25. #25
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    I spent the day listening to gear and come back with a few impressions, Theories, and questions.

    First up was the Cary Cinema 6, a unit I desperately wanted to like and did, but not enough to pull the trigger right now. The Cary has some fantastic analog accoutrements and handles hi-rez 192k signals with aplomb. In two-channel, the thing is fantastic which made me consider it almost more of a traditionl affair that just had a few channels added.

    There are a few quirks, some of which mattered to me and some did not. That the second zone response is limited to the analog section didn't bother me, since I probably wont use it. I was, however, disappointed by the lack of HDMI and moreso room correction.

    I will say that at that price and with the level of two-channel analog output the old-school beast is not completely out of the running. It may be limited, but what it does right it does spectacularly so.

    Next up was the McIntosh MX136. I don't have enough good words for this amazing piece of equipment, and at $9500 I shouldn't. Needless to say, I won't be buying this unit anytime soon unless Ivanka Trump has a daughter with really low standards but I wanted to get a feel for the Mac house sound on porcessors and possible quirks.

    One thing I noticed ( though I was much less touchy-feely) with the Mac was that the crossovers come set at 80Hz was either the result of previous fiddling or a lack of said. Either way, a demo on fullrange speakers with these settings started of pretty shaky. I don't know if this factor was in play during Peabody's audition but I can see how it would color one's view. I would also admit that I was not enthralled with it's performance on Pro-Logic settings which sounded a bit lifeless to me.

    It merits mentioning that this setup included a Classe DVD and CDP, the MC1201 Monos, aformentioned MX136 and a phalanx of Martin Logan Summits and subs. To find fault I had to be very picky. As far as modern ameneties it has 'em with every kind of connection imaginable. I would describe the video scaling as excellent though word is there is better available in the "Gennem (sp?)" chip. Whatever, I'm half blind.

    This beast is a class act, though the general feeling around the store that this was one of the first outings that Mac had gotten more right than wrong in terms of total functionality and value. Clearly I'm gonna have issues unless I sell the lil miss into servitude or start a pitbull operation.

    At this point I'm now heartily considering the option of "HT passthrough", finding out what it means and implementing it Bobstick's world. Does anyone know if any of the new mid-line receivers(Onkyo, Yammie, Denon) with full HDMI connectivity, USBs, etc. have this feature? Is this a Tape-Monitor type dealio? Whattup?

    Thanks for indulging my bumblings about and general ramblings.

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