• 02-02-2006, 06:03 PM
    Florian
    Behringer Ultra-Curve Pro DSP8024 or other Real Time Analyzer?
    I am looking at this unit for RTA measurements and equalization for some minor peaks in my system. My speakers have some exessive output at 25Hz region and run down to about 18Hz with a major peak between 23Hz to 30Hz and maybe some in the lower midrange area. I used to own a Tact RCS 2.0AA which was quite helpfull, but frequently failures made me sell that unit. So i am looking at this Behringer Ultra-Curve Pro DSP8024. The new unit DEQ2496 uses better DAC's, but i am not planning to use those since the Wadia will most likely easily beat it. The idea is to use it in the tape loop from the preamp and the use the higher voltage to run the internal DAC's to their max. Who has tried this unit, or know any other real time analyzer with digital EQ function devices in the 300$ to 400$ area?

    -Flo

    PS: I have lots of room treatment, and its pretty darn smooth but there are 1 or two more peaks that i need to get closer to my holy grail.

    http://www.apogeeclub.de/diva/divasmall.jpg
  • 02-02-2006, 09:52 PM
    Mike Anderson
    ^^^ What a coincidence, I was just looking at the same unit.

    I'm trying to figure out how I can use it without degrading my signal too much. I'd like to run it in pure digital in and out, and put it between my Squeezebox (which is basically like a transport, in that it outputs a 16bit/14khz signal via coax or optical) and my DAC (has both coax and optical inputs).

    As nearly as I can tell, it isn't possible to do this with this unit -- is it?

    PS - Florian you've probably already seen this, but here's a really badly written review of the thing:

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ringer8024.htm

    Nice photo, BTW.
  • 02-03-2006, 02:07 AM
    jtgofish
    These are a bit of a hot item at the moment.A friend looked into these and ended up buying a DBX Driverack instead.These are similar devices although the DBX has auto EQ using a microphone which is a bonus.It has only second order slopes compared with up to fourth order with the Behringer.
    I have heard it at work in a less than ideal acoustic environment and have to admit it signifigantly improved the sound-both to Yamaha NS1200 and Goodmans Axiom 80 speakers.Everything just sounds more perfect-or rather the faults are less obvious.If you are hearing something wrong in your speakers and it is detracting from your enjoyment of them then I guess they are worth a try.My friend says he can hear a slight digital haze,but it is only slight and the benefits outweigh this.

    JT
  • 02-03-2006, 02:55 AM
    Florian
    Well i think that the internal DAC's are better then most entry level ones cause of their higher reolution and shorter signal path but i have no interest in the DAC. As far as i read, the clue with this unit is to drive the internal DAC's to short of clipping to get the lowest noise floor. The Digital Connection is preffered since it has a higher output voltage oposed to letting the unit run between pre and power amps. In my system i can get the high output voltage if i run it paralell with the preamp using the tape monitor. I can easily live with the sound i have know, but there are definetly two peaks somewhere in my system that i feel i need to remove. The newer unit 2496 has better DAC's (useless to me) but cant be controlled from a PC like the 8024. Also the Auto-EQ function works great on the 8024 using Firmaware 1.2 and up which is no problem to add to this unit. Considering its 200 Bucks for me Brand New i am going to give it a whirl. If there is a slight digital edge to the sound, i can mellow that out using the EQ's :p
  • 02-04-2006, 02:05 AM
    jtgofish
    Let us know your findings if you get one.I am keen to try one myself.

    JT
  • 02-04-2006, 03:03 AM
    Florian
    Well, i ordered one and it should be here around 5 days or so. I will let you guys know how it works and what i think of it.
  • 02-04-2006, 09:33 AM
    Mike Anderson
    Does anybody know of a way to insert this thing into a digital path using SPDIF connectors?

    As far as I can tell, it only uses AESBU connectors for digital; is there an adapter or something I can use?
  • 02-04-2006, 09:48 AM
    Florian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Does anybody know of a way to insert this thing into a digital path using SPDIF connectors?

    As far as I can tell, it only uses AESBU connectors for digital; is there an adapter or something I can use?

    Use the AES connections on your transport and DAC or dont you have any? If not, then i would suggest the tape loop since the internal voltage is higher. Cheers

    Flo

    PS: 1.6's there yet?
  • 02-04-2006, 10:41 AM
    Mike Anderson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    PS: 1.6's there yet?

    No! Is that ridiculous, or what? I put $1000 down on these things back in December...

    I'm calling the store as soon as they open in 15 minutes, and ask them what the hell is up. I've been incredibly polite and patient with them, but I've about had it.
  • 02-04-2006, 10:42 AM
    Mike Anderson
    Don't have AES connections on my transport (actually a Squeezebox) or the Benchmark DAC. They use SPDIF, either RCA or Toslink optical.

    I'd just hate to insert such an inexpensive piece of gear into my analog path -- aren't you worried about it degrading your sound at all?
  • 02-04-2006, 10:56 AM
    Florian
    To the 1.6's, Magnepan has these around and stacked meters high. Its the most sold speaker they make. The store guy is playing, i think. Get your money back and call Magnepan and tell them that they are incompetent and that you want a 1.6

    To the Behringer, i am not worried about decreasing soundquality really. I know what a flat response sounds like and know that its WAY better then what 99% of the normal rooms sound like. Its a matter of trade off. And i mean, 200 bucks, what the hay? I spend more on the inteconnect going to and from the unit :p If it sucks, ill sell it on ebay or just use it to measure the room and then treat it otherwise.

    -Flo

    PS: If its between the Transport and DAC it will affect two devices and if its in the tape loop it might only affect one :-)
  • 02-04-2006, 11:09 AM
    Mike Anderson
    The Logos doesn't have a tape loop per se -- It has a pre out, an output, and numerous inputs (all strereo RCA, except for two balanced XLR inputs).

    While I haven't looked at it carefully, I get the impression I can't just run the output into the thing and back into an input as if it were a tape loop.
  • 02-04-2006, 11:59 AM
    Mike Anderson
    Well whaddya know, they finally arrived! I'm going to pick them up right now.

    :) :D :) :D :) :D
  • 02-04-2006, 12:58 PM
    Florian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Well whaddya know, they finally arrived! I'm going to pick them up right now.

    :) :D :) :D :) :D

    Grats buddy!!! Crank em for me too! :p :D :p :D
  • 02-14-2006, 09:55 PM
    bloosqr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Does anybody know of a way to insert this thing into a digital path using SPDIF connectors?

    As far as I can tell, it only uses AESBU connectors for digital; is there an adapter or something I can use?

    I have the behringer 2496 and can confirm that that unit at least accepts both AES/EBU digital and also has toslink i/o.

    -best,
    -avi
  • 02-15-2006, 08:17 AM
    Mike Anderson
    Yes, I saw that the 2496 has it. Does that do the room correction just like the 8024? I take it the 2496 is the new/improved/better version of the 8024?

    Florian, how are you liking the 8024 unit?
  • 02-15-2006, 08:31 AM
    Feanor
    DEQ2496 has RTA and auto correction
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Yes, I saw that the 2496 has it. Does that do the room correction just like the 8024? I take it the 2496 is the new/improved/better version of the 8024?...

    Yes, the the DEQ2496 has a real time analyser and will construct a 61 band correction correction curve. For theses functions, you'll need to get a suitable microphone such as the Behringer ECM8000.

    Here are the links:
    Note that the DEQ2496 has optical (toslink) S/PDIF inputs and outputs, but no coaxial connectors.

    I'm planning to get one of these units. Initially I'll probably feed it directly from my Sony SACD player, (RBCD digital, of course), but eventually I'll feed it from USB sound card with a S/PDIF output -- I hope to put my entire collection on HD encoded using Apple Lossless format and organized with iTunes.
  • 02-15-2006, 10:23 PM
    Mike Anderson
    Looks pretty cool, I'm definitely going to research it.

    Only thing is, my sound is so sweet right now I hate to muck with it. It's hard to imagine how it could sound any better. I'm saying to myself, "I love my sound so much, why fix what ain't broke?"

    Of course I realize my frequency response isn't anywhere near flat, but does it really make that big a difference? Do I care that much, to the tune of $400?

    PS - The 1.6's are unreal now that they're broken in, I'm *really* enjoying them! I should have bought these things years ago.
  • 02-16-2006, 06:25 AM
    Feanor
    I'm already using an EQ
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    ...
    Only thing is, my sound is so sweet right now I hate to muck with it. It's hard to imagine how it could sound any better. I'm saying to myself, "I love my sound so much, why fix what ain't broke?"

    Of course I realize my frequency response isn't anywhere near flat, but does it really make that big a difference? Do I care that much, to the tune of $400?
    ....

    Right now I'm using a Behringer T1951 which is an analog parametric, "tube" equalizer. Very definitely there is an improvment in the naturalness of the sound. I had to use my Radio Shack SPL meter to get readings, then manually enter the corrections on the T1951; this is likely to be a lot less precise than the RTA capabilities of the DEQ2496, nevertheless the improvement is very significant.

    Research, notably the Dr. Floyd Toole, has demonstrated that a flat frequency is the single most important determinent of perceived speaker quality, (not the only one). You will be suprised how "unflat" your system will measure from your listening position. No speakers are perfectly flat to begin with, and room effects, mainly resonances and relections will ensure additional "unflatness". OK, strong bass resonances and early relections are best addressed using room treatments (where possible) but the residuals can be effectively mitigated using at least 1/3 octave or parametric correction.

    I find that my current T1951 has a very minimal or no effect on resolution and a very slight reduction in micro-dynamics; these represent a very small price to pay for the flatter, more natural frequency response. In the case of the T1951 these tiny issues might be the result of the tube circuitry. I'm expecting greater things overall from the DEQ2496.
  • 02-16-2006, 03:27 PM
    Mike Anderson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Yes, the the DEQ2496 has a real time analyser and will construct a 61 band correction correction curve. For theses functions, you'll need to get a suitable microphone such as the Behringer ECM8000.

    Here are the links:
    Note that the DEQ2496 has optical (toslink) S/PDIF inputs and outputs, but no coaxial connectors.

    I'm planning to get one of these units. Initially I'll probably feed it directly from my Sony SACD player, (RBCD digital, of course), but eventually I'll feed it from USB sound card with a S/PDIF output -- I hope to put my entire collection on HD encoded using Apple Lossless format and organized with iTunes.

    I've been told that you can't do RTA/room correction just with the unit and the ECM mic. Apparently you have to hook it up to a computer, as it doesn't generate its own pink noise.

    Is that correct?

    EDIT: Never mind, the salesman was clueless. I've looked in the manual, and he's just wrong.
  • 02-16-2006, 09:16 PM
    Mike Anderson
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Feanor
    Right now I'm using a Behringer T1951 which is an analog parametric, "tube" equalizer. Very definitely there is an improvment in the naturalness of the sound. I had to use my Radio Shack SPL meter to get readings, then manually enter the corrections on the T1951; this is likely to be a lot less precise than the RTA capabilities of the DEQ2496, nevertheless the improvement is very significant.

    Research, notably the Dr. Floyd Toole, has demonstrated that a flat frequency is the single most important determinent of perceived speaker quality, (not the only one). You will be suprised how "unflat" your system will measure from your listening position. No speakers are perfectly flat to begin with, and room effects, mainly resonances and relections will ensure additional "unflatness". OK, strong bass resonances and early relections are best addressed using room treatments (where possible) but the residuals can be effectively mitigated using at least 1/3 octave or parametric correction.

    I find that my current T1951 has a very minimal or no effect on resolution and a very slight reduction in micro-dynamics; these represent a very small price to pay for the flatter, more natural frequency response. In the case of the T1951 these tiny issues might be the result of the tube circuitry. I'm expecting greater things overall from the DEQ2496.

    Alright then, I'll give it a try.

    I like that I can do the processing entirely in the digital domain; seems like that minimizes the degree to which I'm mucking up the signal.

    I'll let you know what I think.
  • 02-17-2006, 08:12 PM
    Mike Anderson
    Alright, I've spent some time playing with the thing, but clearly I have a lot to figure out. I did a RTA room correction analysis, and it sounds OK, but frankly I'm not all that impressed. Maybe I just need to fool with it a little more.

    I do know I'm still not dealing with the bass end properly. For one thing, the default setting for the RTA AutoEQ is to ignore everything below 100Hz! The manual says:

    Quote:

    It makes sense to exclude the low frequency range (up to approx. 100 Hz) from AUTO EQing, because it is this range that may produce inaccuracies during the calculation of the frequency response, which might impair the results achieved with the AUTO EQ.
    But this is the frequency range I'm most concerned about!

    Also, it seems to be doing some fairly dramatic corrections on the low end right above 100 Hz. Two adjacent frequences are very different, one correct +7db, the other corrected -7db.
  • 02-18-2006, 05:03 AM
    Feanor
    Great! Keep slugging
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Alright, I've spent some time playing with the thing, but clearly I have a lot to figure out. I did a RTA room correction analysis, and it sounds OK, but frankly I'm not all that impressed. Maybe I just need to fool with it a little more.

    I do know I'm still not dealing with the bass end properly. For one thing, the default setting for the RTA AutoEQ is to ignore everything below 100Hz! The manual says:

    But this is the frequency range I'm most concerned about!

    Also, it seems to be doing some fairly dramatic corrections on the low end right above 100 Hz. Two adjacent frequences are very different, one correct +7db, the other corrected -7db.

    Mike, I guess you should take the manual's advise and exclude <100 from the AutoEQ. However you probably can take RTA measurements without the AutoEQ, then use these to manually correct the AutoEQ below 100Hz. As I understand it, you can store settings, recall and modify them, and restore or store the modified version as a separate setting.

    As you experiment you might discover that that the corrections made in the midrange, say 400 - 4000Hz, make as much or more difference than that sub-100 corrections. Do you listen to much accoustic music, (e.g. classical, jazz)? If so, you will likely find this to be the case.

    Let us know how it goes. Personnally I'm pretty concerned about any loss of resolution or micro-dynamics.
  • 02-18-2006, 06:17 AM
    Geoffcin
    The problem with these devices is that;
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mike Anderson
    Alright, I've spent some time playing with the thing, but clearly I have a lot to figure out. I did a RTA room correction analysis, and it sounds OK, but frankly I'm not all that impressed. Maybe I just need to fool with it a little more.

    I do know I'm still not dealing with the bass end properly. For one thing, the default setting for the RTA AutoEQ is to ignore everything below 100Hz! The manual says:

    But this is the frequency range I'm most concerned about!

    Also, it seems to be doing some fairly dramatic corrections on the low end right above 100 Hz. Two adjacent frequences are very different, one correct +7db, the other corrected -7db.

    They can only adjust for one specific listening position. Even a couple feet either side of this and the adjustments are off.
  • 02-18-2006, 09:44 AM
    Mike Anderson
    I've got the microphone placed exactly in the listening position, equidistant from each speaker.

    I'm going to try to adjust the bass levels manually. I'm generating a series of test tones at various intervals from 20hz up to 200hz on my computer, which I will feed into the DEQ2496. The DEQ2496 has a SPL meter built into it, so I'm going to use the microphone with that function to see if I can get a flat frequency response below 160hz just by running the test tones, checking the levels, and adjusting the graphic EQ manually in a trial and error process until the bass is more or less flat.

    Then I'll use the AUTOEQ function to automatically flatten everything above 160hz.

    I'll let you know how it works out; it'll probably take all day!