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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Audiophile Priorities and Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons

    As announced in the car talk thread, I got a new ride (first new car after 383k miles with an Acura Integra). I didn't give much thought to the car audio system, since I was more focused on how the cars drive, the budget, gas mileage, reliability record, and other features. When I decided on the Mazda3, I was basically forced to go with the Bose Centerpoint audio system since it was in the same option package with the sunroof.

    I already posted a quasi review of the Mazda3 Bose system. Surprisingly good system overall, although Bose's processing circuitry, particularly the Centerpoint surround mode, makes the sound quality worse. Just speaks volumes about Bose that they designed a decent OEM audio system for the Mazda3, yet still tout the gimmickry that actually diminishes the audio performance.

    Do Audiophiles Care About Car Audio?
    And a couple of online publications also gave the Bose system in the Mazda3 high marks. One of these articles appeared in Positive Feedback, which is an online audiophile publication that doesn't normally review car audio equipment. The review of the Mazda3's Bose Centerpoint system included a very choice quote about audiophiles and car audio.

    Positive Feedback: Issue 55 - Bose Centerpoint Car Audio System

    I've owned more home audio components than I can remember, but for some reason, never fussed much with the stuff in my car. I've always just checked the "premium sound" option box and lived with whatever stereo came from the factory. Some were good, some were bad, others made no lasting impression at all. With middle age fast approaching, the last thing I want is to sit in the waiting room of a car stereo installation shop alongside the cast from The Fast and The Furious....

    Certainly, if you're reading this, you're not a typical Bose customer. Neither am I, really—except in this case. Bose customers are happy to pay a premium for unobtrusive simplicity and good sound straight from the box. That's me in a nutshell when it comes to car audio and based on an informal survey of my audiophile friends, it could be you, too. It seems that most of the car audio junkies I know have crappy mass-market systems at home while most audiophiles live with whatever their car comes with. There are exceptions, even some on our staff, but if you've ever been stopped next to a booming 1993 Honda Civic coupe with tinted windows, you realize that most car audio buffs aren't really looking for the same virtues we are.
    I'm inclined to agree with the author. I don't know any audiophiles that fuss nearly as much with their car audio systems, and in fact, most of the discussions over the years on this board tend to refer to the entire car audio segment as a derogatory comparison. Most audio enthusiasts I know will generally go with the factory-installed system, or go with some modest upgrades on their own. I've done my own car speaker replacements, but that's about it. Conversely, I don't know anyone with a tricked out car audio system that obsesses much over their home audio setup.

    Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons
    With that in mind, Edmunds seems to be one of the few online car review sites that actually reviews the factory-installed audio systems using similar criteria to a home audio review. They have a standard set of review discs and use RTA measurements to confirm the observed listenings.

    In a comparison of premium audio systems for budget cars, Edmunds actually ranked the Mazda 3 Bose Centerpoint system first. Yes, it surprised me too.

    Comparison Test of Six Budget Premium Audio Systems - Edmunds.com

    Results - Car/Premium Audio Brand (Score 1=headache-inducing; 10=best to expect from a budget vehicle)

    1. Mazda3/Bose (7.0)
    2. Mini Cooper Hardtop/Harmon Kardon (5.7)
    3. Volkswagen Golf TDI/Dynaudio (4.9)
    4. Nissan Sentra Spec V/Rockford Fosgate (4.7)
    5. Toyota Corolla XRS/JBL (3.3)
    6. Scion xB/Alpine (2.7)

    The results were a surprising because I would have expected the VW Dynaudio system to score higher. Just goes to show that sometimes expectations don't always measure up.

    Edmunds also conducted a comparison test of premium factory-installed audio systems for luxury cars. Here are their results.

    High-End Stock Stereo Sound-Off - Edmunds.com

    1. Acura TL/ELS (8.5)
    2. Lexus LS 460/Mark Levinson (8.0)
    3. Hyundai Genesis/Lexicon (7.3)
    4. Infiniti M45/Bose (7.1)
    5. Aston Martin DBS Volante/Bang & Olufsen (6.9)
    6. Jaguar XFR/Bowers & Wilkins (6.0)

    The high end comparison is a bit outdated now because some of these systems came with DVD-Audio capability. The Acura system is actually intriguing because it was custom designed by Eliot Scheiner, who's one of the premier 5.1 music mixers in the industry. I have yet to hear any of B&W's car audio systems, but it surprised me to see their Jaguar system ranked dead last.
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  2. #2
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    I appreciate a good stereo in my car and have replaced stock sound systems in the past. The problem that I have found with car audio is that if the road noise in the car is loud then a high end system is wasted.
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  3. #3
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    I have low expectations of car audio. I suppose it started back in '82 when I spend a fair buck to retrofit what I hoped to better-than-stock system install in my Chev Malibu. It was highly disappointing.

    Today I rarely listen to anything but a little radio in the car, and that is anything but serious listening. I wouldn't spend a dime to upgrade my car system; if a better system were to come in some option package I wanted for other reasons, then fine.

  4. #4
    Feel the Tempo eisforelectronic's Avatar
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    The best sounding stock car system I've heard was in a Volvo.
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  5. #5
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    The thing about stock higher end audio systems is that many of them are specifically tuned for that model car. The system in my 2009 Maxima is excellent, it probably is a Bose. It has a sub, separate tweeters and full range speakers.
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    Parasound A21 amp
    Vintage Luxman T-110 tuner
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    Vintage Technic's Integrated amp
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  6. #6
    Ajani
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    I assume there are at least 2 reasons for this situation:

    1) The way audiophiles listen to music - Often as an activity by itself. Versus most others as background music while they do other things - So driving (travelling) maybe the only time they listen to music.

    2) $$$$$$$$ - Money spent tricking out my car stereo is money that I could have spent on my main system. So since I don't do my major listening in the car, then it doesn't need a great system.

  7. #7
    RGA
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    It's about road and wind noise - My Rondo was quite quiet and had I stayed in Canada I was planning to make a major upgrade to the car system - This was the only vehicle I have ever had that I think I could something in a big way. The fact that it was a mini-van (sort of) helped and that roads in B.C. are generally speaking high quality on the noise front - unlike the roads in L.A back when I made the drive there.

    I did replace my car system with the Civic with an Alpine CD player (but back then 1996 - they were $600 and was considered the top brand for this stuff. Also bought Mordaunt Short speakers. And a sub was coming but I ended up selling it and went back to University to change my career trajectory away from Accounting to teaching.

    I would never underestimate the importance of car audio - for many people this is their time to listen to music - because when they get home the girlfriend wife wants to go out or watch a movie or you have to help the kids with homework or take them to some sporting event etc. That hour in the commute each way is the time to listen.

    And generally speaking car audio is cheaper to get to a very good point (good for a car audio system anyway). The guy across the street from me put $15,000 into his car stereo - a Volkswagon Golf. You needed headphones to protect your ears from blowing. Now that was a loud system!

    The repair guy at Soundhounds does custom car installs - They carry interesting decks - Nakamichi is still making them and seemed to be the deck of choice by the fellow. It is lighter on features than some though but for those of us with those mid 90s decks will appreciate the simple operation. Although I liked the Sony deck I had in my Toyota - for $119 it ran the iPod and was easy to use. The stupid blue LED was a bit too bright and at night it would reflect off the windshield - so if you ever get one try and find one with a dimmer or colour selection so that it will match your instrumentation.

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    I have low expectations of car audio. I suppose it started back in '82 when I spend a fair buck to retrofit what I hoped to better-than-stock system install in my Chev Malibu. It was highly disappointing.

    Today I rarely listen to anything but a little radio in the car, and that is anything but serious listening. I wouldn't spend a dime to upgrade my car system; if a better system were to come in some option package I wanted for other reasons, then fine.
    During that era, the stock OEM car audio systems were almost uniformly horrible. You pretty much had to go aftermarket to get anything remotely decent sounding, and even there a lot of the component quality fell way short of even a decent boombox. Bose was the first manufacturer to produce a custom designed car audio for specific models (I believe the Corvette was the first car to offer the Bose systems). But, I recall those systems as also sounding mediocre compared to a good aftermarket system. It wasn't until at least the early-90s that a lot more interesting "premium" OEM car audio systems became available.

    The current choices with premium audio systems is mind-boggling by comparison, and the quality of the equipment used in these systems is often comparable to good aftermarket gear. What amazes me is the number of higher end audio manufacturers that now make branded OEM car audio systems, but don't sell any other components to the aftermarket car audio trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by eisforelectronic
    The thing about stock higher end audio systems is that many of them are specifically tuned for that model car. The system in my 2009 Maxima is excellent, it probably is a Bose. It has a sub, separate tweeters and full range speakers.
    Judging by what I've seen with the Bose system in my Mazda (I've seen pictures of the components used in the system), the customization of the system makes up for a lot of the deficiencies in the individual components. For example, the subwoofer on my setup only uses a 5.25" paper/foam woofer. The speakers themselves also don't look all that substantial. But, there are 10 speakers in the system, and they are actually well situated and together sound pretty good. Would not surprise me if the other premium systems similarly use cabin optimized positioning while not necessarily using top quality components.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I assume there are at least 2 reasons for this situation:

    1) The way audiophiles listen to music - Often as an activity by itself. Versus most others as background music while they do other things - So driving (travelling) maybe the only time they listen to music.
    Well, the mobile audio market is actually more than twice as big as the home audio component, even after you remove the OEM installations. I don't think people listening in their cars are necessarily listening as background, it's really their primary time to listen to music. And sales for portable music players are more than triple the sales for home audio components. Put together, I think you can see that music-on-the-go is more the norm than anything.

    To get an idea of how much bigger the car audio market is, you just need to look at the number of home audio retailers versus car audio. In smaller towns, you will often find car audio dealers, but no home audio retailers for many miles away. The retail support is also different in that car audio vendors can make their money through installation services, whereas it's more difficult for a home audio retailer, since fewer home audio customers will opt for the more profitable installation services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    2) $$$$$$$$ - Money spent tricking out my car stereo is money that I could have spent on my main system. So since I don't do my major listening in the car, then it doesn't need a great system.
    You're probably right, and I think someone that prioritizes their car audio system would feel the same way about spending on their home setup.
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  9. #9
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    Well, the mobile audio market is actually more than twice as big as the home audio component, even after you remove the OEM installations. I don't think people listening in their cars are necessarily listening as background, it's really their primary time to listen to music. And sales for portable music players are more than triple the sales for home audio components. Put together, I think you can see that music-on-the-go is more the norm than anything.

    To get an idea of how much bigger the car audio market is, you just need to look at the number of home audio retailers versus car audio. In smaller towns, you will often find car audio dealers, but no home audio retailers for many miles away. The retail support is also different in that car audio vendors can make their money through installation services, whereas it's more difficult for a home audio retailer, since fewer home audio customers will opt for the more profitable installation services.



    You're probably right, and I think someone that prioritizes their car audio system would feel the same way about spending on their home setup.
    Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

    I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).

    As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.

  10. #10
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

    I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).

    As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.
    I'm with you, Ajani. Spending big bucks on car stereo is fairly incomprensible to me. Maybe I'd feel differently if I drove long distances but that is rare for me. I think your right that people who prioritize their car systems are watching TV sports or videos at home. And/or they get more peer envy on account their car stuff.

    I often listen to music with a lot of concentration -- driving or exercising are too distracting for serious listening, (or ought they ought to be ). I often listen to my iPod while taking exercise but it's background for sure; come to that, I more often listen to talk podcasts.

  11. #11
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

    I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).
    I think you're now crossing the line and getting into arbitrary labeling. I don't agree at all that "music lovers" should automatically be equated as people who listen to music at home and people who listen on the go are not "music lovers."

    I look at the mobile and personal audio market as a natural progression of trends that have been ongoing for more than 50 years (or more than 100 years, if you count the advent of recorded music). Music has continually been trending towards portability and listening on-the-go. This goes all the way back to the days of portable record changers, and then onward to boomboxes, Walkmans, and now iPods.

    If anything, this trend now allows people to take their music with them, without any restraints. People who are passionate about music no longer have to leave it behind when they go out. It's actually liberating, because music consumption no longer has any barriers. I've long stated that the iPod/MP3 player is revolutionary simply because it allows people to bring their entire music collection with them no matter where they go. That's something taken for granted nowadays, but absolutely mindblowing compared to where we were less than 20 years ago, having to decide which tapes/CDs to take with us when going out.

    Keep in mind that recorded music was greeted with similar derision by "music lovers" who claimed that the only real way to enjoy music was via live performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.
    With the newer OEM car audio systems, I'm not nearly as inclined to spend more money on aftermarket upgrades. When I was growing up, the performance gap between a component-based home audio system and OEM car audio systems was huge. For me, it was simply ensuring that my favorite music didn't get butchered beyond recognition when I was listening on-the-go. With most current OEM car audio systems, that gap is not nearly as huge and that system is already paid for when you buy a new car.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I'm with you, Ajani. Spending big bucks on car stereo is fairly incomprensible to me. Maybe I'd feel differently if I drove long distances but that is rare for me. I think your right that people who prioritize their car systems are watching TV sports or videos at home. And/or they get more peer envy on account their car stuff.
    I'm not so sure about that. I think people who pay through the nose for a car audio system are simply on the go a lot more, and likelier to live in apartments where a full range home audio system is less practical.

    I shelled out about $800 for my first car audio system, which actually cost more than my home system. Part of it was because I was a student/apartment dweller, so a full range system was impractical. The other part though was it took that kind of a budget to get acceptable sound quality in a car system back then (and I had to pay for installation), which is not the case nowadays with most OEM car audio systems.
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  12. #12
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackraven View Post
    I appreciate a good stereo in my car and have replaced stock sound systems in the past. The problem that I have found with car audio is that if the road noise in the car is loud then a high end system is wasted.
    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    It's about road and wind noise - My Rondo was quite quiet and had I stayed in Canada I was planning to make a major upgrade to the car system - This was the only vehicle I have ever had that I think I could something in a big way.
    Good points on the road and wind noise. I seem to be perfectly fine with how OEM systems will adjust the volume with the car speed. My first impressions of Bose's Audiopilot setup are that the system's way overengineered (using a microphone and 8 EQ channels to continually adjust the levels in real time) for what it delivers.

    I remember all the rave reviews of the Nakamichi premium system on the original Lexus LS400. I wasn't overly impressed, especially considering that it was IIRC about a $2k upgrade. I think the Nakamichi system benefited greatly from Toyota's almost fanatical efforts to reduce the interior noise on that Lexus model, so the audio performance was "improved" by simple reduction in background noise.

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of cars that are too quiet, because I prefer to maintain some connection to the outside world when I'm driving. IMO, those sensory-deprivation-chambers-on-wheels either attract lousy drivers or create them.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGA
    The fact that it was a mini-van (sort of) helped and that roads in B.C. are generally speaking high quality on the noise front - unlike the roads in L.A back when I made the drive there.
    Most of the freeways in California were originally built using concrete, which is far more durable than asphalt but also a lot noisier. The newer asphalt compounds are even quieter than before, so anything repaved/resurfaced recently is going to be much quieter.
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  13. #13
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    I think you're now crossing the line and getting into arbitrary labeling. I don't agree at all that "music lovers" should automatically be equated as people who listen to music at home and people who listen on the go are not "music lovers." .
    That's not what I said. I'm just not convinced that most of the persons who listen on the go are music lovers.

    I also don't believe that every person with a home stereo (even expensive audiophile gear) is a music lover. Lots of audiophiles are, IMO, more in love with gear than with listening to music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    I look at the mobile and personal audio market as a natural progression of trends that have been ongoing for more than 50 years (or more than 100 years, if you count the advent of recorded music). Music has continually been trending towards portability and listening on-the-go. This goes all the way back to the days of portable record changers, and then onward to boomboxes, Walkmans, and now iPods.

    If anything, this trend now allows people to take their music with them, without any restraints. People who are passionate about music no longer have to leave it behind when they go out. It's actually liberating, because music consumption no longer has any barriers. I've long stated that the iPod/MP3 player is revolutionary simply because it allows people to bring their entire music collection with them no matter where they go. That's something taken for granted nowadays, but absolutely mindblowing compared to where we were less than 20 years ago, having to decide which tapes/CDs to take with us when going out.

    Keep in mind that recorded music was greeted with similar derision by "music lovers" who claimed that the only real way to enjoy music was via live performance.
    I have no issue with listening to music on the go. I think the iPod changed the music world in a positive way. I have used a music server as my exclusive source since around 2007, so I truly appreciate what the growth in portable music has done for the music world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. I think people who pay through the nose for a car audio system are simply on the go a lot more, and likelier to live in apartments where a full range home audio system is less practical.
    I don't agree with that. It maybe true for some persons. But I've known so many persons who lived in the same area and worked at the same firm as me, who chose car stereo and ipods over home stereos. Why? Because they were not interested in listening to music at home. Home was time for TV, movies and games. I do not regard those persons as music lovers.

  14. #14
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    That includes me

    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    Most audio enthusiasts I know will generally go with the factory-installed system...
    although I have a TL with the 5.1 ELS system. It came with a 5.1 DVD-A demo disk, but in the eight years I've owned the car, I've never listened to it. Don't care that much. Most of my car listening is to XM radio anyway. It's the variety, not the sound quality that is most important to me in a compromised car environment.

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Scanning over those Edmunds comparison test rankings, I noticed just how much of the premium OEM car audio market seems to have gone over to Harman International. A Sound & Vision article from a few years ago indicated that OEM car audio systems accounted for 75% of Harman's total revenue, which is astounding when you consider the many niches in the home and pro audio markets where they rank among the sales leaders. It just demonstrates how huge the mobile audio market is.

    The brands that fall under the Harman umbrella, and supply OEM car audio systems for the premium market include Harman/Kardon, JBL, Infinity, Mark Levinson, and Lexicon. In addition, B&W entered into a partnership with Harmon to jointly develop car audio systems for the OEM market.

    In some ways, this is easy money for both the car maker and the OEM vendor. Once the vendor is selected and the car audio system is designed, then the OEM vendor is guaranteed thousands of unit sales with one transaction. And the car maker can bundle the audio system into high priced option packages, and leverage the brand cachet of the OEM vendor to upsell those option packages.

    The irony here is that the reputations for Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Dynaudio, B&W, et al. were made in the home audio market. And it's really that reputation that they are marketing in order to sell car audio systems.

    However, you don't see much of the reverse situation, where well-regarded car audio specialists try to expand into home audio. Part of it is the fact that the home audio market is considerably smaller, yet has a lot more companies competing for pieces of a smaller pie. The other part is simply that a good reputation in the car audio market probably works against a company if they try marketing to the home audio market. The example I can think of is Monsoon, which made its reputation in the car audio market and became a premium audio option for a lot of GM models (I recall that they replaced Bose as the upgrade option for the Camaro). Monsoon proceeded to introduce a floorstanding home speaker with planar ribbon high/mid drivers and dynamic woofers. The speakers sold for $1,200 a pair (quite low for a planar magnetic/dynamic hybrid speaker) and received decent reviews, but because Monsoon was viewed as a "car speaker" company, a lot of audiophiles never gave them a chance. Monsoon has since gone through ownership changes, and is now basically defunct.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 01-11-2012 at 05:30 PM.
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  16. #16
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    That's not what I said. I'm just not convinced that most of the persons who listen on the go are music lovers.
    But, based on that standard, I think the same would be true for people who don't listen on the go. There are plenty of people out there who just don't care about music, regardless of where they do most of their listening. Again, I think you're trying to slap an arbitrary label on people, based strictly on where they do their primary listening. I mean, how is someone who followed the Grateful Dead around the country and listened to bootlegs on cassette tapes any less of a music lover than some guy with 8,000 songs on a computer server at home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I also don't believe that every person with a home stereo (even expensive audiophile gear) is a music lover. Lots of audiophiles are, IMO, more in love with gear than with listening to music.
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    I don't agree with that. It maybe true for some persons. But I've known so many persons who lived in the same area and worked at the same firm as me, who chose car stereo and ipods over home stereos. Why? Because they were not interested in listening to music at home. Home was time for TV, movies and games. I do not regard those persons as music lovers.
    And I know plenty of people who are some of the most dedicated music fans around, and they could care less about their home system. Why? Because they spend more of their time attending live music events, and on the go than anything. They never invested in an expensive home entertainment system because that wasn't where they spent most of their time.

    Until I got married, that applied to me as well. I loved music, loved audio, but didn't bother spending a lot on my home audio system because I was hardly ever home. And living in a flat with roommates and neighbors on all sides also meant that an upgraded home audio system was more of a wasted investment since I could never turn the volume up without someone complaining. And just because someone watches TV or videos at home, to me that says nothing about how much they love music, because it's not an either/or choice. Need to remember all of the lifestyle considerations before painting these broad brushes about who loves music and who doesn't.
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  17. #17
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    But, based on that standard, I think the same would be true for people who don't listen on the go. There are plenty of people out there who just don't care about music, regardless of where they do most of their listening. Again, I think you're trying to slap an arbitrary label on people, based strictly on where they do their primary listening. I mean, how is someone who followed the Grateful Dead around the country and listened to bootlegs on cassette tapes any less of a music lover than some guy with 8,000 songs on a computer server at home?



    Very true.



    And I know plenty of people who are some of the most dedicated music fans around, and they could care less about their home system. Why? Because they spend more of their time attending live music events, and on the go than anything. They never invested in an expensive home entertainment system because that wasn't where they spent most of their time.

    Until I got married, that applied to me as well. I loved music, loved audio, but didn't bother spending a lot on my home audio system because I was hardly ever home. And living in a flat with roommates and neighbors on all sides also meant that an upgraded home audio system was more of a wasted investment since I could never turn the volume up without someone complaining. And just because someone watches TV or videos at home, to me that says nothing about how much they love music, because it's not an either/or choice. Need to remember all of the lifestyle considerations before painting these broad brushes about who loves music and who doesn't.
    Just to make sure my point is clear:

    A music lover doesn't need to own a home stereo. Someone who would rather play a guitar than put on a CD is a music lover. Someone who attends lots of live concerts but doesn't own a stereo in any form is likely a music lover as well. Someone who only listens to music on an iPod or a car stereo can be a music lover.

    My issue is that I'm not convinced that the majority of persons listening solely on their car stereos or on their iPod (while jogging) are really music lovers. It's not meant to be an insult to those persons. I don't call myself a movie or TV buff / cinephile or whatever the term is just because I watch Movies or TV when convenient. I really don't regard those activities as my hobbies.

    You may regard it as arbitrary labelling, but I see a distinction between someone who is really into a hobby and someone who will engage in an activity mainly because it is convenient. I might watch an occasional football match (real football not American), but my cousins who have favourite teams, know all the players and never miss a match are actual football fans. This is like my distinction with the term music lover.

  18. #18
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Just to make sure my point is clear:

    A music lover doesn't need to own a home stereo. Someone who would rather play a guitar than put on a CD is a music lover. Someone who attends lots of live concerts but doesn't own a stereo in any form is likely a music lover as well. Someone who only listens to music on an iPod or a car stereo can be a music lover.
    And to that point, I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    My issue is that I'm not convinced that the majority of persons listening solely on their car stereos or on their iPod (while jogging) are really music lovers.
    But, why is this even an issue? You are presuming that you can gauge someone's level of interest based on where or how they do their primary listening. I'm simply saying that you're painting with a really broad brush here. And if this applies to people who listen on car stereos and iPods, would it not also apply to people who listen at home?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    It's not meant to be an insult to those persons. I don't call myself a movie or TV buff / cinephile or whatever the term is just because I watch Movies or TV when convenient. I really don't regard those activities as my hobbies.
    But, why does it have to be an either/or proposition? You're not a cinephile simply because you don't regard yourself as one. No other reason, you're just not that into movies, which is fine and entirely your choice.

    Your points though seem to presume that someone else cannot be into both music and movies, that if they spent time watching movies at home, then it diminishes their love of music. I just don't accept that premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    You may regard it as arbitrary labelling, but I see a distinction between someone who is really into a hobby and someone who will engage in an activity mainly because it is convenient. I might watch an occasional football match (real football not American), but my cousins who have favourite teams, know all the players and never miss a match are actual football fans. This is like my distinction with the term music lover.
    Why can't hobbies be convenient, or as I'd rather phrase it, ubiquitous? Like I said, people having their music with them at all times in all places actually allows them to integrate music into their life, rather than forcing them to take time out of their life for music's sake. I thought that music was about enjoyment, that the music was supposed to serve the listener rather than the other way around. The degree of servitude to the music playback IMO has no bearing on how much someone actually likes music. That's why I see this as an arbitrary distinction.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 01-11-2012 at 11:22 PM.
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  19. #19
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    The upgrade conundrum!

    Reading up a little bit more on the Bose audio system on my Mazda3 just reminds me of why I'm no fan of theirs. Basically, I'm stuck with this system, and I knew I would be when I decided that I had to have a sunroof.

    If I should ever decide to upgrade the system, I would need to swap out nearly every component, and it's no simple task to simply upgrade the speakers. For one thing, the speakers that Bose uses are apparently 0.5 to 1.0 ohms impedance, and the digital amp that Bose pairs with these speakers will supposedly shut down if it detects a higher impedance speaker (most car audio speakers I'm familiar with are rated at 4 ohms nominal impedance). What confounding is that Bose seems to be using common sizes and mounting depths with their speakers, so swapping out drivers would otherwise be simple.

    This is the exact same asinine proprietary loop that Bose uses with their home theater systems. If you buy a Bose Lifestyle system, you can't use the speakers with any other system unless you buy a separate $100 wire harness.


    This guy is doing his own system build replacing a Bose system. I think he's taking the long way home! LOTS of good pictures though if anyone wants to take a look at the drivers that Bose uses in the Mazda systems.

    ETERNAL's 2010 MS3 SYSTEM BUILD LOG***UPDATE 13 DECEMBER PAGE 6...COMPLETED***




    After a week with the Bose system, the only real weakness I've observed with the base audio performance is with the center speaker. The speaker uses a 3.25" driver and it's mounted in the dashboard and pointed straight up at an angle that reflects off of a plastic overhang. The center speaker is wired in parallel with the L/R channels, so it's on all the time with no way of adjusting the level. The timbre mismatch is noticeable, especially when the Audiopilot surround mode is engaged (which is why I prefer to leave it off). Since I know where the center speaker is mounted, I might see if it's possible to disconnect it.

    Makes me wonder if other premium car audio systems are designed the same way, with proprietary components that cannot be readily upgraded.
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  20. #20
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    And to that point, I agree with you.



    But, why is this even an issue? You are presuming that you can gauge someone's level of interest based on where or how they do their primary listening. I'm simply saying that you're painting with a really broad brush here. And if this applies to people who listen on car stereos and iPods, would it not also apply to people who listen at home?



    But, why does it have to be an either/or proposition? You're not a cinephile simply because you don't regard yourself as one. No other reason, you're just not that into movies, which is fine and entirely your choice.

    Your points though seem to presume that someone else cannot be into both music and movies, that if they spent time watching movies at home, then it diminishes their love of music. I just don't accept that premise.



    Why can't hobbies be convenient, or as I'd rather phrase it, ubiquitous? Like I said, people having their music with them at all times in all places actually allows them to integrate music into their life, rather than forcing them to take time out of their life for music's sake. I thought that music was about enjoyment, that the music was supposed to serve the listener rather than the other way around. The degree of servitude to the music playback IMO has no bearing on how much someone actually likes music. That's why I see this as an arbitrary distinction.
    Whether someone is a "music lover" by my definition or not isn't an issue. I bring it up merely as part of the discussion of this topic. My feeling is that if you only listen to music when on the go, then why would you invest in a home stereo? On the other hand, if like most audiophiles you take time out of your day to sit an enjoy music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned with the sound quality of your "on the go" system.

    And yes you can have more than one hobby. However, I can't think of many cinephiles who only watch a movie if they're on a train or plane (commuting). Generally they make time for that hobby. I could call myself a football fan because I watch the occasional match, but I shouldn't be surprised when the hardcore fans dismiss my claim of being a fan.

    Nothing wrong with convenience. I prefer a music server to a CD player because it is more convenient. However, even if it wasn't convenient I'd still make the effort to listen to music.

    IMO, A music lover with an iPod tends to have it on most of the day. The person who only picks up their nano when it's time to go jogging, just doesn't seem to be a music lover to me. The guy who wears his iPod most of the day, might be willing to invest in a home stereo. The one who only wears it when jogging, won't even consider a stereo.

    That is the point of the distinction. If you only listen to music while commuting then you are not going to be interested in a Home Stereo. If you dedicate time to listening to music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned about having higher quality sound on the go.

  21. #21
    RGA
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    It's funny you mention stock stereos because that was actually the main reason I bought a Honda Civic over a Mazda something or other (it was the one designed by a woman) - looked cool to me at the time and was around the same price.

    But Mazda was and still is a bit of a pain in the neck when it comes to their "bundles" I want the 5c engine then you have to also buy the 6 speaker stereo system at X price - but I don't want to buy the stereo system I just want the 5c engine well I am sorry Mr. Austen you must pay the $1000 for the upgraded stereo.

    So I went to Honda - Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the Civic with a radio, with a radio/CD player or with nothing. Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the air conditioner and ONLY the air conditioner - you also don't have to get the moonroof package.

    I hate that stuff. let me have the damn thing the way I want the damn thing. Not that it matters - I am so damn happy to not own a money pit car anymore - and I hope I keep liking it here because if so I will never buy another bloody car again!

  22. #22
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani View Post
    Whether someone is a "music lover" by my definition or not isn't an issue. I bring it up merely as part of the discussion of this topic. My feeling is that if you only listen to music when on the go, then why would you invest in a home stereo? On the other hand, if like most audiophiles you take time out of your day to sit an enjoy music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned with the sound quality of your "on the go" system.
    And I think that's a valid point, which is part of the reason why I started this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    And yes you can have more than one hobby. However, I can't think of many cinephiles who only watch a movie if they're on a train or plane (commuting). Generally they make time for that hobby.
    Problem with comparing audio with video is that you're talking about two very different markets and patterns of consumption. Audio has consistently been trending in the direction of portability for decades, and only requires one sense to fully enjoy. Portable and mobile devices are actually the primary method for music listening, largely because it's possible to integrate music into any number of lifestyles.

    Video OTOH has been trending towards larger screens and higher resolution. The primacy of home viewing is actually more dominant now than it was a decade ago. Even though video can now be consumed on the go, every study done over the last few years has found that the vast majority of viewing time still occurs at home and just the growth in TV viewing time is more than the total average viewing time for mobile video content.

    It takes both visual and auditory senses to fully take in video content, which makes it fundamentally different from audio. Also, most songs are 5 minutes long or less, while video content requires a longer time commitment. In addition, movies are also viewed in theaters, whereas recorded music is not consumed in that kind of a group environment. Just a lot of fundamental differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    IMO, A music lover with an iPod tends to have it on most of the day. The person who only picks up their nano when it's time to go jogging, just doesn't seem to be a music lover to me. The guy who wears his iPod most of the day, might be willing to invest in a home stereo. The one who only wears it when jogging, won't even consider a stereo.

    That is the point of the distinction. If you only listen to music while commuting then you are not going to be interested in a Home Stereo. If you dedicate time to listening to music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned about having higher quality sound on the go.
    But, again these all seem like very arbitrary definitions you're making here. You're trying to draw correlations where I just don't think they exist. A music lover to me is someone simply who defines themselves as such. How they access their music to me is irrelevant, so long as enjoy it and seek it out. Making presumptions based on whether someone picks up an iPod for jogging or listens to music during a commute just seems like a pointless exercise because you really don't know that person's actual mindset and attitude towards the music.
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  23. #23
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RGA View Post
    It's funny you mention stock stereos because that was actually the main reason I bought a Honda Civic over a Mazda something or other (it was the one designed by a woman) - looked cool to me at the time and was around the same price.

    But Mazda was and still is a bit of a pain in the neck when it comes to their "bundles" I want the 5c engine then you have to also buy the 6 speaker stereo system at X price - but I don't want to buy the stereo system I just want the 5c engine well I am sorry Mr. Austen you must pay the $1000 for the upgraded stereo.

    So I went to Honda - Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the Civic with a radio, with a radio/CD player or with nothing. Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the air conditioner and ONLY the air conditioner - you also don't have to get the moonroof package.

    I hate that stuff. let me have the damn thing the way I want the damn thing. Not that it matters - I am so damn happy to not own a money pit car anymore - and I hope I keep liking it here because if so I will never buy another bloody car again!
    Yeah, Mazda is definitely notorious for locking their options down into these arbitrary packages. But, a lot of it is their own fault because, with the Mazda3 at least, they proliferate the drivetrain options like crazy (do you want the 2.0L MZR, 2.0L Skyactiv, 2.3L DISI Turbo, or 2.5L MZR engine? And do you want the 5-speed automatic, 6-speed stick, 6-speed Skyactiv-D, or 6-speed Skyactiv-MT?). Supposedly 2012 is a transitional year for them, and a couple of the engine choices will disappear next year.

    I know that Mazda has to streamline their production more than other companies because 1) they are a smaller company with less production capacity; and 2) they still make most of their cars in Japan, and the exchange rate on the yen is killing them right now. One of the easiest ways of streamlining production is to limit the option combos.

    With the Skyactiv Mazda3 that I got, the only option for the Touring version is the sunroof/Bose package -- can't have one without the other. If I want to add leather seats and navigation, then it's another $1,500 to upgrade to the Grand Touring model.

    Honda also does its own fair share of bundling, but they allow more a la carte optioning because more of their equipment is dealer installed.

    Ford throws the entire option menu open. You can choose a package or pick just a certain feature. But, that actually made it more difficult to find a car with the option combination I wanted, since I was purposely looking for a Focus that did not have the MyFordTouch/Sync option and did not have the problematic dual clutch transmission. Problem is that MyFordTouch is a high demand option and more profit for the dealer, so the majority of Focus models that the dealers order include that feature. In my entire area, I could only locate one Focus that had a sunroof without the MyFord/Sync option.
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  24. #24
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woochifer View Post
    ...
    It takes both visual and auditory senses to fully take in video content, which makes it fundamentally different from audio. Also, most songs are 5 minutes long or less, while video content requires a longer time commitment. In addition, movies are also viewed in theaters, whereas recorded music is not consumed in that kind of a group environment. Just a lot of fundamental differences.
    ....
    Pardon this aside, but I look at the 5 minute thing bemusedly as a Classical listener. The average length of a single movement of typical concerto or symphony (if there were such a thing) exceeds 5 minutes, and such a work typically has 3 - 5 movements. I guess listening to Classical has more similarity to watching videos than to popular music. Symphonies such as by Mahler or Bruckner are over an hour and choral works, e.g. Messiah, are often longer. Operas longer still although I prefer opera videos, so I come full circle.

  25. #25
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Pardon this aside, but I look at the 5 minute thing bemusedly as a Classical listener. The average length of a single movement of typical concerto or symphony (if there were such a thing) exceeds 5 minutes, and such a work typically has 3 - 5 movements. I guess listening to Classical has more similarity to watching videos than to popular music. Symphonies such as by Mahler or Bruckner are over an hour and choral works, e.g. Messiah, are often longer. Operas longer still although I prefer opera videos, so I come full circle.
    Yep, that's why I deliberately said "most songs" because orchestral and operatic pieces are an obvious exception. This coming from someone who had Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony playing on the car stereo for last night's PM commute, and has sat through the considerable running times of many a Mahler performance.
    Last edited by Woochifer; 01-12-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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