Audiophile Priorities and Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons

[recoveryone]

how did I miss this thread

[Woochifer]

how did I miss this thread

No better time than now to chime in! Who makes the audio unit on your Crossfire anyway?

Quick update ...

I was reading over those various posts about the Mazda3 Bose system that came with my car, and basically it's mostly a non-upgradable system. For example, Bose uses very low impedance drivers in their system, which is inherently more difficult to drive. I read that Bose uses 1 ohm speakers, and all of the car audio speakers I've installed in my various cars have all been 4 ohms impedance.

Supposedly the digital amp will trip up if it detects a higher impedance speaker. So, any upgrade will entail replacing everything except the headunit. And reusing the headunit would still require a new amp, since the Bose amplifier will not play nice with more standard car speakers. The frustrating part of this is that this mimics how Bose offloads the amplification on their Lifestyle home theater systems, making it impossible to use the system with any other speakers.

Fortunately, the sound quality is pretty good when all the gadgety features are turned off. But, if I ever want to do something like swap out those 6.5" paper Bose drivers for a set of poly drivers, the amplifier might not let me. So, it looks like I'm stuck.

I wonder if other factory-installed car audio systems are similarly proprietary in their design.

[recoveryone]

Thanks Woo, by the way the Crossfire came with a Infinity system, Component speakers and twin 6" subs behind the seats. The HU plays nice and has RDS radio and when you change the source its very smooth. But its dated for my standards. I just had the Pioneer DEH P9400BU put in, it has:

HD radio w/RDS
Bluetooth.......Handfree/Streaming from phone
Dual USB for Ipod/USB
Pandora support
Dual AUX
Multi Color support (match your dash lights)
CD
24 bit processing




I've been using bluetooth for over 10 years, so that is a must have, The HU in my old car had HD radio (more of a bones than need). I am use to being able to bring my music with me on a 8GB thumb drive ripped at 320kbps filed in folders of my choice (Gospel, Jazz, Neo Soul, Old school, Funk). The Pioneer plays each source very well, I was impressed with the bluetooth streaming, much less noise than the old HU I had. A few years ago I replaced my wifes HU with a Pioneer DEH 7100BT and she loves it especially the voice dialing feature (something no longer available on HU now days)

[Woochifer]

Thanks Woo, by the way the Crossfire came with a Infinity system, Component speakers and twin 6" subs behind the seats. The HU plays nice and has RDS radio and when you change the source its very smooth. But its dated for my standards.

So, I take it that the OEM system allows you to swap out the headunit and still use the factory-installed speakers.

It's amazing to me how Harman/Kardon (and its many affiliate brands such as Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, and Mark Levinson) dominates the premium car audio market on the OEM side, and the car audio side of the business now dwarfs everything else that the company does.

I've been using bluetooth for over 10 years, so that is a must have, The HU in my old car had HD radio (more of a bones than need). I am use to being able to bring my music with me on a 8GB thumb drive ripped at 320kbps filed in folders of my choice (Gospel, Jazz, Neo Soul, Old school, Funk). The Pioneer plays each source very well, I was impressed with the bluetooth streaming, much less noise than the old HU I had. A few years ago I replaced my wifes HU with a Pioneer DEH 7100BT and she loves it especially the voice dialing feature (something no longer available on HU now days)

This Mazda3 is actually my first car that even has an AUX audio input! The car audio and I guess now "infotainment" options have mushroomed like crazy over the last few years. The car audio systems installed even in entry level cars nowadays are unrecognizable from what was the norm just five years ago.

The audio system on my Mazda3 is considered a dinosaur by some reviewers (basically, the ones who read too many tech blogs) because it still relies on buttons and dials, and *gasp* it doesn't have any USB inputs!

It does however have Bluetooth standard, and I've used the audio functions. I've been curious about Bluetooth audio, and done some digging into the specs and standards. I'll probably do a separate thread on Bluetooth, because so many audio accessories have now gone to Bluetooth.

In general, the audio quality is neither here or there (in my case the Bluetooth is transcoding a lossy AAC file from an iPod touch), and the Bluetooth audio doesn't allow for much functionality aside from skipping tracks.

Most of the time, I still use my old iPod dock (one with an FM transmitter, because my old car did not have an AUX audio input), except that I now plug the dock directly into the AUX input. Sound quality is subjectively better than using the Bluetooth, and I prefer the clickwheel controls on my old iPod nano, so that's what I use in the car.

[recoveryone]

What I did was use the crutchfiled site to make sure which HU fit my car. then narrowed my choices from the features I was looking for. I'm sure there has to be somthing out there that can replace that Bose system.

[Woochifer]

What I did was use the crutchfiled site to make sure which HU fit my car. then narrowed my choices from the features I was looking for. I'm sure there has to be somthing out there that can replace that Bose system.

Looking at Crutchfield's site, it looks like there are at least a few supposed drop-in upgrade options for that Bose system. The only thing I would be concerned about is the supposed issues with the digital amp. And if I do make a speaker upgrade, I would have to upgrade the entire group, since Bose uses 1 ohm drivers and most car speakers on the market have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms.

Given that I paid $1,400 for the option package that included the Bose system (want a moonroof? gotta buy the audio upgrade too), and I just sent in my first car payment (ah, my 90 days of "no payments" freedom are about to come to an end), I'm not really looking to put any money into the audio system just yet.

As I wrote, and as indicated in the reviews I linked to, the Bose Centerpoint system in my car is surprisingly good. It's only Bose's whackjob processing gimmickry that I'm not cool with. Fortunately, except for the dash-mounted center speaker, all of that can be disabled (if there's way of disabling the center speaker, I might be open to that -- consider it addition by subtraction).

Now that I think about it, are there any OEM car audio systems that don't use paper cones in the speakers? I know that drivers made with other materials are plentiful in the aftermarket, but I don't know of any factory installed systems that use them.

[topspeed]

First and foremost, let me just say that the most important music in any car is the exhaust. There's a reason why many sports cars (Mustang, 911, M3) have sound tubes connecting the manifold to the cabin to port in engine noise. The '13 M5 even uses prerecorded engine sounds and plays it through the HK sound system because the chassis it is built on is TOO quiet.

That said, we had the Bose Centerpoint in our Mazda CX9 GT and it was a decent, if somewhat muddled system. I couldn't agree more with Bose's hackeyned processing features and, like you, we just turned everything off. This was our fourth Bose system and the most amazing thing was how different they all performed. The first, in an Infiniti I30, was the best and most balanced. The two Pathfinders that followed were both atrocious, the very definition of No Highs, No Lows, must be Bose. Clearly, despite Bose's claims to specifically tune the systems to different cars, I think it's safe to say they don't. Either that, or they have wildly divergent ideas of what a system should sound like within the company.

For me, one of the key features of OEM systems...and what makes them so hard to replace...is the convenience of the ergonomics. Whether it's the steering wheel controls in my car or Sync in my wife's Flex, it would be hard replace the HU in any car and give up that convenience. Sound quality is still important, witness many buyer's willingness to fork over $9k(!) for the upgraded B&O system in Audi's. However, if your first job in any car is to actually drive, we can't disregard the importance of ergonomics. This is increasingly important as more and more manufacturers believe we should have our Pandora, email, Facebook updates, et. al. streamed to us in our cars (a view I heartily disagree with). Unfortunately, this convergence of technologies is going to take a toll on most car's sound quality as manufacturers redirect funds from reproduction to sources. Most buyer's are more concerned with ease of use of their Sirius, iPod, or Pandora streams, all of which are horrible from the standpoint of sound quality, yet as long as they can stream their playlists via bluetooth, they are happy campers. Case in point: HD radio, a medium that flat blows anything save CD out of the water from the standpoint of sound quality but still hasn't caught on and very few stations have made the commitment to the upgrade. Why? No one cares and those that do, namely audiophiles, are a shrinking group.

[recoveryone]

Speaking on HD radio not catching on IMHO is mainly the fault of the broadcasters. I have several HD stations in my area, even on the AM side of the dial. But I have only heard one activily promote HD radio, the others must just assume the public will just fall into it if they buy a product that supoprts the format. One of the stations in my area that has it, has both HD1 and HD2 stations the HD1 one mirrors the analog station broadcast, but the HD2 plays old school R&B with no commericals just staion ID at the top and bottom of the hour. And the quality is noticable much better and rival CD on a good system. Here is a list off the HD radio web site for my area, but I also pick up stations out of LA area.

89.1 KUOR	Jazz KUOR-HD 89.1FM The University of Redlands Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
89.3 KCRI	Educa/News KCRI-HD 89.3FM Santa Monica Community College Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
91.9 KVCR	Educational KVCR-HD 91.9FM San Bernardino Community College District Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
95.1 KFRG	Country KFRG-HD 95.1FM CBS Radio Riverside-San Bernardino, CA Ribbit Radio KFRG-HD2 95.1-2FM CBS Radio Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
99.1 KGGI	Top 40 KGGI-HD 99.1FM Clear Channel Riverside-San Bernardino, CA Groove KGGI-HD2 99.1-2FM Clear Channel Riverside-San Bernardino, CA
1440 KFNY	Comedy KFNY-HD 1440AM Clear Channel Riverside-San Bernardino, CA here the link to check your area for HD stations HD Radio | Stations | More Music. More Stations. More Features. Digital Sound. No Subscription.

[recoveryone]

Looking at Crutchfield's site, it looks like there are at least a few supposed drop-in upgrade options for that Bose system. The only thing I would be concerned about is the supposed issues with the digital amp. And if I do make a speaker upgrade, I would have to upgrade the entire group, since Bose uses 1 ohm drivers and most car speakers on the market have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms.

Given that I paid $1,400 for the option package that included the Bose system (want a moonroof? gotta buy the audio upgrade too), and I just sent in my first car payment (ah, my 90 days of "no payments" freedom are about to come to an end), I'm not really looking to put any money into the audio system just yet.

As I wrote, and as indicated in the reviews I linked to, the Bose Centerpoint system in my car is surprisingly good. It's only Bose's whackjob processing gimmickry that I'm not cool with. Fortunately, except for the dash-mounted center speaker, all of that can be disabled (if there's way of disabling the center speaker, I might be open to that -- consider it addition by subtraction).

Now that I think about it, are there any OEM car audio systems that don't use paper cones in the speakers? I know that drivers made with other materials are plentiful in the aftermarket, but I don't know of any factory installed systems that use them.

Call their tech support is a 1-800 number

[jjp735i]

710-Watt (max) Rockford-Fosgate Punch® premium sound system that you can get in the new Lancer. Has to be one of the best factory installed systems I've ever heard.

jjp

[bfalls]

Do any of the current car systems have a center channel? My Eclipse came with an Infinity system. It's center channel gives what I've been looking for in a car system for some time---balance. It always seems a compromise when setting up a car system. If you adjust it for the driver the sound is off for everyone else. The center speaker gives very good balance for both driver and passenger. I don't feel like I'm missing anything. We've had luxury vehicles with Bose, Infinity and JBL systems. None sound as good as (to me) the system in my 2003 Eclipse.

[Woochifer]

First and foremost, let me just say that the most important music in any car is the exhaust. There's a reason why many sports cars (Mustang, 911, M3) have sound tubes connecting the manifold to the cabin to port in engine noise. The '13 M5 even uses prerecorded engine sounds and plays it through the HK sound system because the chassis it is built on is TOO quiet.

Hey Speedy, good to hear from you! Definitely agree on the visceral thrill of a good exhaust note -- yeah, even on my old VW Bug, which probably had the most recognizable sound of any car ever made (and that's with all 45 ponies pushing at the same time!).

Sadly, my Mazda3 doesn't have much of an exhaust note to talk about. Aside from the diesel-like clanking from the GDI engine, it's just smooth and compliant until it gets rougher in the high RPMs. Nothing like my now-comatose Integra, which was turbine-like until the VTEC system kicked in at the higher RPMs and that engine started singing. If anything, that engine was just begging to rev high (amazing that it lasted 383k miles). I'd been looking at the Mazdaspeed3, but fuel economy and emissions took priority this time around, so I went with the Skyactiv.

I've driven the current Mustang a few times as a rental (only the 210 HP V6 models). Decent push off the line, but nothing to write home about. I didn't like the handling and thought the engine was unrefined. But, man oh man did Ford get the exhaust note right on that car! Might not have been an actual barnburner, but it most definitely sounded like one.

I did read about the piped in exhaust noise on the Bimmers. Sorry, but that's just cheesy! Then I see the Acura commercials where they use acoustic cancellation to tamper down the engine noise. Color me heretical, but I thought I was driving a car, not a sensory-deprivation-chamber-on-wheels.

That said, we had the Bose Centerpoint in our Mazda CX9 GT and it was a decent, if somewhat muddled system. I couldn't agree more with Bose's hackeyned processing features and, like you, we just turned everything off. This was our fourth Bose system and the most amazing thing was how different they all performed. The first, in an Infiniti I30, was the best and most balanced. The two Pathfinders that followed were both atrocious, the very definition of No Highs, No Lows, must be Bose. Clearly, despite Bose's claims to specifically tune the systems to different cars, I think it's safe to say they don't. Either that, or they have wildly divergent ideas of what a system should sound like within the company.

With Bose, I think it comes down to what they can cram into the interior. They seem to optimize around that, rather than any desired tonal quality. That seems to be why the Bose systems perform so differently from car to car.

With my system, just look at the bizarre range of drivers that Bose selected:

Front Door (high): two 1" tweeters
Front Door (low): two 6.5" woofers
Front Dashboard (center): one 3.5" "twiddler"
Passenger Door (low): two 5.5" woofers
Rear Pillar: two 3.5" "twiddlers"
Rear Spare Tire: one 5.5" "subwoofer"

Except for the front center speaker, everything actually matches surprisingly well. But, I get the impression that this might be more by accident than by design.

With the Fiat 500, Bose is now marketing their "Energy Efficient" series that touts 50% reduced energy consumption. I made a comment on one of the car blogs that any system can achieve a 50% reduction in energy consumption by simply installing speakers that are 3 db more sensitive, assuming that you're talking about identical sound output levels. Or simply switch over to Class D amplification (which Bose already uses in its OEM systems), which reduces heat losses.

For me, one of the key features of OEM systems...and what makes them so hard to replace...is the convenience of the ergonomics. Whether it's the steering wheel controls in my car or Sync in my wife's Flex, it would be hard replace the HU in any car and give up that convenience. Sound quality is still important, witness many buyer's willingness to fork over $9k(!) for the upgraded B&O system in Audi's.

Whuh, you mean that $9k B&O upgrade on the Audi A8 wasn't just for those fantastically convenient pop-up tweeters?



I have seen installation kits that supposedly replicate the OEM steering wheel controls on an aftermarket system. But, who knows what functions, such as the Bluetooth controls, would get disabled if you start swapping out components.

However, if your first job in any car is to actually drive, we can't disregard the importance of ergonomics. This is increasingly important as more and more manufacturers believe we should have our Pandora, email, Facebook updates, et. al. streamed to us in our cars (a view I heartily disagree with). Unfortunately, this convergence of technologies is going to take a toll on most car's sound quality as manufacturers redirect funds from reproduction to sources. Most buyer's are more concerned with ease of use of their Sirius, iPod, or Pandora streams, all of which are horrible from the standpoint of sound quality, yet as long as they can stream their playlists via bluetooth, they are happy campers. Case in point: HD radio, a medium that flat blows anything save CD out of the water from the standpoint of sound quality but still hasn't caught on and very few stations have made the commitment to the upgrade. Why? No one cares and those that do, namely audiophiles, are a shrinking group.

Yeah, I don't know what's worse -- the drunk driver, the driver yakking and texting on their phone, or the driver doing a staredown with their navigation system!

Unfortunately, that techie mentality of trying to cram as many features onto a checklist as possible has invaded the auto market in a huge way. It's not just the sound quality, but the functionality as well, that can suffer in the process. Aside from the spate of bugs that have accompanied these infotainment systems, a lot of the time they are just poorly designed to begin with. Just look at the MyFordTouch screen on a sat radio equipped Explorer. Is this supposed to make the drive easier ... or safer?



All these new connectivity features have proven popular with Gen Y car buyers, so I don't see them going away. However, it seems that the more elaborate the infotainment system, the bigger a toll it takes on the manufacturers' reliability ratings. Ford is the most notable example, but Hyundai as well has slipped in the JD Power rankings as they made a big push with tech gadgets.

With the sound quality, the OEM systems are a lot better nowadays than in decades past. But, I don't see things pushing much further upward, at least with stock systems. The big trend with premium sound will likely see at least some sound quality refinements simply because car buyers have proven willing to pay more to upgrade their OEM audio system (or at least option up on the packages that include the premium audio). Plus, from what I've seen, the premium OEM systems still have a lot of room to improve. If you look at the speaker drivers, they still use cheaper materials compared to decent aftermarket car speakers.

On HD Radio, Clear Channel has made a big push. Most of their major market stations now use HD Radio for multicasting. Even though HD Radio is capable of good sound quality, that consideration is really secondary to the multicasting functionality. Basically, any feature that keeps listeners from defecting over to satellite radio is fine with them; and the main feature of satellite is simply the bigger music library.

From what I've seen, Clear Channel has a bunch of preformatted streams that they make available to their stations (and other OTA stations) -- stuff like disco and classic 80s, etc. -- and those get placed onto the HD Radio multicasts. With each FM signal capable of multiple digital subchannels, a single classic rock station for example can potentially carry specialized feeds for every decade in the rock era or any number of different subgenres.

In my listenings with HD Radio, it just seems that eliminating the analog FM interference goes a long way towards improving the sound quality. The bigger issue with radio is with the source itself, since most radio stations now upload everything using digital music servers and presumably using compressed audio files.

[topspeed]

Hey Speedy, good to hear from you! Definitely agree on the visceral thrill of a good exhaust note -- yeah, even on my old VW Bug, which probably had the most recognizable sound of any car ever made (and that's with all 45 ponies pushing at the same time!).

Yeah, nothing sounds like the metallic rasp of that air cooled icon.

I'd been looking at the Mazdaspeed3, but fuel economy and emissions took priority this time around, so I went with the Skyactiv.

The Skyactiv is impressive stuff! Highest compression ratio of any NA engine. Mazda is the BMW of Japanese manufacturers in my estimation, meaning they actually infuse their cars with a character and soul. They actually give a damn as to how something drives, which is why I was glad to see they were able to dramatically increase the efficiency of their vehicles while not losing their dynamic personality. The Skyactiv diesel is apparently their ace in the hole, I can't wait to see what they are going to do with it. Diesel is mighty appealing to me (over 65% of vehicles sold in Europe are now diesel, not petrol). BMW just released a facinating video of their new Tri- Turbo 3.0L inline 6 diesel with...get this...381hp and 546 lb/ft! Yeah, baby! Sign me up!

I did read about the piped in exhaust noise on the Bimmers. Sorry, but that's just cheesy!

You're being polite. It's heresy! (and I don't mean the speaker). A Bimmer with a fake exhaust system. What's next, Ferrari's with no manuals? Wait...what?

Yeah, I don't know what's worse -- the drunk driver, the driver yakking and texting on their phone, or the driver doing a staredown with their navigation system!

Unfortunately, that techie mentality of trying to cram as many features onto a checklist as possible has invaded the auto market in a huge way. It's not just the sound quality, but the functionality as well, that can suffer in the process. Aside from the spate of bugs that have accompanied these infotainment systems, a lot of the time they are just poorly designed to begin with. Just look at the MyFordTouch screen on a sat radio equipped Explorer. Is this supposed to make the drive easier ... or safer?

Neither. Years ago, Jamie Kitman from Automobile Magazine labeled all the "infotainment" upgrades foisted upon us by the manufacturers as "crapulent luxury." Works for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a decent stereo as much as the next guy and find some of the features of the Sync system to be pretty cool, but if given the choice between more horsepower or more wattage...well my moniker should give you a hint. The HK Logic 7 in my car is actually one of the better ones I've heard (the best being the ELS DVD-A system, hands down), yet it can always be better, which is why there's a JL Audio sub in the trunk. BTW, earlier in the thread someone mentioned that car audio speakers don't translate well to home audio, particularly the high end. I guess no one told JL as the Fathom is quite possibly the best sub on the planet. But I digress, most audiophiles are rarely content in their quest for the absolute truth. This viscious cycle is one of the reasons I stepped back from the hobby and elected to simply enjoy the music. You're trying to change out your speakers in a brand new car, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you find your musical preferences change when your behind the wheel? Mine do. When I'm at home, it's not uncommon for me to turn the sub off during critical listening. However, in my car, the punchier the better! That could be due to road noise or whatever, but I like to feel my bass.

[Woochifer]

Do any of the current car systems have a center channel? My Eclipse came with an Infinity system. It's center channel gives what I've been looking for in a car system for some time---balance. It always seems a compromise when setting up a car system. If you adjust it for the driver the sound is off for everyone else. The center speaker gives very good balance for both driver and passenger. I don't feel like I'm missing anything. We've had luxury vehicles with Bose, Infinity and JBL systems. None sound as good as (to me) the system in my 2003 Eclipse.

I believe that all of Bose's Centerpoint systems use a center speaker. In regular stereo playback, the center simply plays in parallel with both the L and R channels. When Bose Centerpoint processing gets switched on, then the center channel uses a discrete processed signal. It's basically the same principle as Dolby Pro Logic decoding. I don't care too much about the center speaker on the Bose system. It doesn't timbre match especially well with the L and R speakers. But, at least the levels seem properly set (unfortunately, the controls don't provide any way of setting the center speaker level), so it doesn't sound overly distracting during normal playback.

The Skyactiv is impressive stuff! Highest compression ratio of any NA engine. Mazda is the BMW of Japanese manufacturers in my estimation, meaning they actually infuse their cars with a character and soul. They actually give a damn as to how something drives, which is why I was glad to see they were able to dramatically increase the efficiency of their vehicles while not losing their dynamic personality. The Skyactiv diesel is apparently their ace in the hole, I can't wait to see what they are going to do with it. Diesel is mighty appealing to me (over 65% of vehicles sold in Europe are now diesel, not petrol). BMW just released a facinating video of their new Tri- Turbo 3.0L inline 6 diesel with...get this...381hp and 546 lb/ft! Yeah, baby! Sign me up!

I would say that Skyactiv is an impressive first effort. Even though it's not the most exciting engine in the world, I do appreciate its balance and flexibility. It doesn't tip in gobs of torque at the low end like a 6 or 8 banger or turbo or diesel, or kick into screaming banshee mode at the top end like my Integra did. But, it has a nice linear powerband that's not too peaky at any point.

Compared to Mazda's previous powertrains, the Skyactiv's biggest improvement was actually in the transmission. The auto transmission just gets it right -- quick, rev-matched shifts like a dual clutch without the lurching at low speeds. I preferred it to the Ford Focus and VW Golf manuals (the manual Skyactivs were very hard to find at the time I bought my car).

That torque on a diesel is indeed very enticing. I nearly opted for the VW Golf TDI because of that. But, at nearly $28k, it was over $5k more than the Mazda3, and just outside the budget that we had set. Plus, it was inching close to the Chevy Volt after all the tax breaks (we ruled that model out because of the price).

I read that the Skyactiv-D engine will likely arrive next year, and first on the CX-5 and redesigned Mazda6. For now, Mazda doesn't plan to include it with the Mazda3, at least until its next redesign. Until I test drove the Golf TDI, I hadn't driven a diesel in close to 20 years. These modern diesels are way different. Unfortunately, I see diesels remaining a niche play, as economy-minded Americans seem to have moved over to hybrids.

Driving enthusiasts just aren't in the sweet spot of the market, which is probably why Mazda's sales continue to lag behind other mainstream market rivals. But, I do appreciate that they make cars that want to be driven, and that drivers who like driving will want to drive. They're not quiet, isolated, soft, or smooth -- which is where the mainstream market is, and unfortunately where Honda (a former enthusiast favorite) went as well.

Neither. Years ago, Jamie Kitman from Automobile Magazine labeled all the "infotainment" upgrades foisted upon us by the manufacturers as "crapulent luxury." Works for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a decent stereo as much as the next guy and find some of the features of the Sync system to be pretty cool, but if given the choice between more horsepower or more wattage...well my moniker should give you a hint. The HK Logic 7 in my car is actually one of the better ones I've heard (the best being the ELS DVD-A system, hands down), yet it can always be better, which is why there's a JL Audio sub in the trunk. BTW, earlier in the thread someone mentioned that car audio speakers don't translate well to home audio, particularly the high end. I guess no one told JL as the Fathom is quite possibly the best sub on the planet. But I digress, most audiophiles are rarely content in their quest for the absolute truth. This viscious cycle is one of the reasons I stepped back from the hobby and elected to simply enjoy the music. You're trying to change out your speakers in a brand new car, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you find your musical preferences change when your behind the wheel? Mine do. When I'm at home, it's not uncommon for me to turn the sub off during critical listening. However, in my car, the punchier the better! That could be due to road noise or whatever, but I like to feel my bass.

I'll admit I've been borrowing that crapulent term -- it just seems to perfectly fit so much of the ridiculous tech getting crammed into the newest cars. Problem is that cars are not the same thing as smartphones or computers. A software glitch or overly complicated interface has greater consequences with a car than with other devices. Yet, these features still get pushed out in the same way as any other software -- get it out to market first, and worry about fixing any bugs later on.

My choice of tunes is a little more punchy whenever I drive. A car audio system is inherently different simply because all of the speakers are in the near field. It will image differently than a home audio setup, although carefully done processing and positioning can make the soundfield more expansive (and this was the goal with the Acura ELS systems, which were designed by 5.1 guru Eliot Scheiner). And a lot of mixing and mastering on pop recordings is done on speakers that approximate how things sound in a car cabin, so the track might actually be more optimized to a car than home system.

And the bass will definitely be a different story altogether, because the smaller cabin size means that the bass waves reinforce one another all across the frequency spectrum. A small cabin also means that you won't hear any specific room-induced frequency peaking like you would at home in a small to medium sized room (unless you equalize the subwoofer or treat the room). This of course just invites cranking up the volume!

Funny thing is that my old VW Bug was the best environment for good, tight bass. I installed a pair of 6"x9" coaxials on the rear deck, which concealed a small cargo compartment behind the rear seat (ah, the oddities of the Bug -- engine in back, trunk and gas tank up front, cargo compartment behind the rear seat). With heavy firewall insulation and the backseat cushion on all sides, that space turned out to be perfect sealed box. And the Bug had that dome shaped roof which reduced right angle sound reflections. Yeah, it was slow as a snail and made every turn an adventure, but man I miss that car!

[Poultrygeist]

I have a Mazda3 5 door with the low profile performance tires which are so loud that upgrading the tinny sounding factory system would be a waste for me.

I have an old S10 pickup that by adding a thin Kenwood powered sub behind the seat made a big difference. The head unit is a cheap Pioneer.

My wife's Toyota Sienna is quiet enough to warrant a system upgrade which I may get around to.

My best sounding system from back in the day was a Sansui deck with some Altec full rangers I managed to shoehorn in the doors of a German Ford. Marshall Tucker never sounded so good.

[recoveryone]

aaahhh those good old 6X9's, my first pair went into my 67 chevy Impala low rider (Jensen), then I had a set of four that fit on a board I made when my dad handed down his old 74 Honda CVCC. After that I had a 75 Pinto coupe put in 8" woofers and 6" horn tweeters (with crossovers) and few people could stand riding in the back seat it was so loud. Man those were the days...............

[topspeed]

6x9's were be-all, end-all back in the day, eh? My friend had Cerwin-Vega 6x9's on the deck of his Scirocco and it worked famously. When I was in high school, my Bronco had 2x12" CV's, Sanyo amps, Morel Mid-tweets (basically a 5.25" soft dome), and Morel tweeters w/ a Yamaha HU. Basically a echo chamber, you could hear that thing coming from blocks away, which is important when you're 16 but not so much now.

The HK in my current car has 11 speakers, two of which are 6.5" underseat subs. Stock, it is very balanced and had enough kick to keep me interested. The DPLII thankfully doesn't screw up the sound nearly as much as Centerpoint in my opinion, although I still prefer the "music" setting over "cinema" (really, in a car?). I installed the JL sub simply because I had it so why not? My previous convertibles were vacuums for bass and the stock stereos were an affront to anyone who takes music even semi-seriously. I melted, literally, a couple of Rockford Fosgates and a Pyle before I ante'd up for the JL (cheap they're not), which has been easily the most musical and obviously bulletproof of the lot. Now that I have a hard top, admittedly the sub is a bit of overkill. Some people never grow up...

BTW, one of the great tragedies in automobiledom is the dilution of Honda. What the hell happened to this once great company??? As a former Integra and CBR owner myself, I loved the engineering and passion that once percolated throughout all of Honda's products. There was a time when their engineers took pride in creating innovative answers to problems. Their designs were lean, no fluff, truth in engineering stuff. You knew they would be light, efficient, and with direct responses to the wheel or bars. If Big Red didn't win on the GP circuit, you knew they would come storming back in short order. Now, they're recycling engines and using 5spds when the rest of the world has moved on to 6, 7, and 8 spd transmissions. Their cars look the same...and not in a good way. The Accord is bloated, the '13 Civic looks EXACTLY like the '12, just with a cheaper interior, and don't get me started on the Crosstour. This is a company that has completely lost its identity.

[Woochifer]

I have a Mazda3 5 door with the low profile performance tires which are so loud that upgrading the tinny sounding factory system would be a waste for me.

I have an old S10 pickup that by adding a thin Kenwood powered sub behind the seat made a big difference. The head unit is a cheap Pioneer.

My wife's Toyota Sienna is quiet enough to warrant a system upgrade which I may get around to.

My best sounding system from back in the day was a Sansui deck with some Altec full rangers I managed to shoehorn in the doors of a German Ford. Marshall Tucker never sounded so good.

Eliminating interior noise is an instant sound upgrade for just about any car stereo. But, I think a lot of auto makers have gone way too far in that direction to the point that the isolation from the road is actually dangerous.

Sansui ... now there's a blast from the past! I always liked their gear back in the day. The nameplate is still around, but it's now nothing more than rebadged stuff from Funai.

aaahhh those good old 6X9's, my first pair went into my 67 chevy Impala low rider (Jensen), then I had a set of four that fit on a board I made when my dad handed down his old 74 Honda CVCC. After that I had a 75 Pinto coupe put in 8" woofers and 6" horn tweeters (with crossovers) and few people could stand riding in the back seat it was so loud. Man those were the days...............

Wow, and now Jensen. Couple that with a Craig headunit, and you got half of the audio selections from decades past at your local Pep Boys!

I was looking for a pair of those old horn tweeter units when I had my Bug. By that time, everyone had stopped making them, so I went with the 6x9s.

BTW, one of the great tragedies in automobiledom is the dilution of Honda. What the hell happened to this once great company??? As a former Integra and CBR owner myself, I loved the engineering and passion that once percolated throughout all of Honda's products. There was a time when their engineers took pride in creating innovative answers to problems. Their designs were lean, no fluff, truth in engineering stuff. You knew they would be light, efficient, and with direct responses to the wheel or bars. If Big Red didn't win on the GP circuit, you knew they would come storming back in short order. Now, they're recycling engines and using 5spds when the rest of the world has moved on to 6, 7, and 8 spd transmissions. Their cars look the same...and not in a good way. The Accord is bloated, the '13 Civic looks EXACTLY like the '12, just with a cheaper interior, and don't get me started on the Crosstour. This is a company that has completely lost its identity.

Incredibly sad demise, now culminating with the widely panned 2012 Civic. Honda went for the dollars, plain and simple. Toyota did the same thing, but outside of the Supra and MR2 they never had much of a presence with the enthusiast market. Honda is seen as more of a betrayal.

Honda had an incredible run where they would come up with one inspired idea after another. It wasn't all about technology -- remember that they were one of the last car companies to add catalytic converters, one of the last to abandon carburetors, and one of the last to widely adopt twin cam engines. It was about meeting a performance goal and optimizing their cars to the nth degree, without sacrificing build quality or reliability.

I think Honda, as we knew it, came to an end around the same time (the mid to late-90s) that Toyota began to lose their way. Not coincidental that Soichiro Honda died in 1991 -- the NSX was one of the last cars that had his direct input, and it was the pinnacle of Honda's greatness. Models introduced immediately after the NSX used a lot of the same principles. In the mid-90s, Honda had just introduced the first generation Odyssey minivan, and the fifth generation Accord. Both cars were intelligently packaged, space efficient, lightweight, and fun-to-drive for their class -- everything that Honda was still known for at that time.

But, both models fell way behind competing models that had added size and weight. So, in a bid to grab market share, Honda dino-sized the next generation models, and separated the North American models from the Japanese and European market models. The new models were bigger, more conservatively designed, and heavier. And they sold in much greater numbers. Honda's been going ever larger and softer since then, trading models that fit Soichiro Honda's vision (like the S2000, Integra, and pre-G6 Accords) for uninspired sales grabs (like the Pilot, CR-V, post-G1 Odysseys, and post-G5 Accords).

Problem for Honda is that after their spectacular emergence in the 70s, 80s, and early-90s, they reached a point where the only market left to capture in North America was buyers transitioning from the Big Three. Those consumers were more used to big and cushy cars, so rather than stick with the enthusiast market, Honda basically abandoned them to go chasing after former GM, Ford, and Chrysler owners.

Past Honda owners will still buy new Hondas out of loyalty and because of Honda's reputation for reliability. But, the thrill is gone, and Honda can only bank off of their goodwill and reputation for so long. A lot of Honda's good stuff is still found overseas (bringing the Honda Stream space wagon to the U.S. would have been a bold move, but Honda opted for the gawdawful Crosstour instead), but they are adrift without a rudder in North America -- just content with building derivative "me too" commuting appliances. Honda became the new Toyota, just as Toyota was becoming the new GM. Even Hyundai nowadays is building bolder and more forward thinking cars than Honda.

Word is that the new Civic's rude reception from the auto press has Honda in an all out panic mode. Sad part is that Honda seems more distressed by the negative review from Consumer Reports than anything else. Even worse is that the sales for the new Civic have been on the rise, indicating that U.S. car buyers don't care much that the new Civic is a softened and dumbed down version of the previous model.

And the booming sales for the VW Jetta, also seem to indicate that U.S. buyers are fine with softened and decontented cars, as long as they're bigger and cheaper. Honda's doing nothing more than shifting their market target over to the fat part, even if they lose their soul in the process.

[texlle]

Of the various audio systems I've had the pleasure of sampling when I worked a part-time weekend gig at a car wash in college, I was a fan of the dynaudio systems in the Volvo and Volkswagen models, though I have heard the VW systems can be problematic, likely due to the fact that they are wired to a VW. I've recently heard the 16-speaker Lexicon system in the Hyundai Equus luxo-barge and it was quite impressive as well. You really can't go wrong with nearly any "premium" name brand system from any car, except the Bose stereos. The Bose sounds better than most standard non-name brand stock equipment but does not compete with even some of the offerings from JBL, Infinity, Rockford, let alone B&O, B&W, Mark Levinson, in my opinion.

My 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GTV6 came with a 360 watt 7 speaker "Infinity" stereo. The 7th speaker being an 8" trunk mounted subwoofer. I place Infinity in quotes above because all drivers are actually JBL speakers as indicated by the labels on the magnets. The Infinity labeled headunit was a regular cheapo double-din model manufactured by Hyundai and installed as standard equipment in the Sonatas and Santa Fes. The only difference being that it was finished in black and had an Infinity logo. It was not very impressive out of the box. The tweeters were surprisingly smooth, and not sharp at all. However the mids were a bit veiled and lacking in detail. The subwoofer was not very loud and was actually wired in reverse phase from the factory. A popular modification when the car was new was to reverse the phase to 0 degrees by simply reversing the the two wires. This made a world of difference, but 3 months later it blew.

I swapped the stock headunit for an Alpine CDA-9831, removed the stock sub entirely, added an Alpine 350W mono amp, and a JL Audio 12w3v2. Vast improvement. Though I did have to turn the gain down significantly to avoid drowning out the speakers. I also opted for the auxiliary adapter for the rear input and added an Ixos rca-headphone cable for my iPhone. It's essentially like having bluetooth to boot, as I only have to tap the screen to receive a call, the call is channeled through my stereo, and when I end the call, the phone will resume music play.

I'm considering adding some entry level Boston components up front and 6x9's in the rear, and possibly an aftermarket 4-channel amp, but that will be after I change my timing belt and overhaul the brakes...and finish my 2-channel at home of course.

[recoveryone]

I forgot to add all this time we have been talking about this, that my Wife's Acura MDX came with a Bose system and the Pioneer HU drivers all the speakers just fine or should I say better than the Bose HU.

[texlle]

I wouldn't be surprised if most "Bose" headunits aren't just lightly tweaked or even direct copies of the lesser standard equipment headunits supplied to those car models, with a Bose logo slapped on, much like my "Infinity". It's likely that the speakers and amplifiers are really what you're really paying for, with some of the very high end systems possibly being the exception- Audi's B&O for example. You'll notice that when comparing standard to premium factory car systems, the headunit almost always looks exactly the same, save for an additional row of buttons for added sound mode effects at most and of course the obligatory logo. Yet you can't tell for sure what has changed behind the mask until you disassemble, or receive an explanation from the manufacturer.

[Woochifer]

Of the various audio systems I've had the pleasure of sampling when I worked a part-time weekend gig at a car wash in college, I was a fan of the dynaudio systems in the Volvo and Volkswagen models, though I have heard the VW systems can be problematic, likely due to the fact that they are wired to a VW. I've recently heard the 16-speaker Lexicon system in the Hyundai Equus luxo-barge and it was quite impressive as well. You really can't go wrong with nearly any "premium" name brand system from any car, except the Bose stereos. The Bose sounds better than most standard non-name brand stock equipment but does not compete with even some of the offerings from JBL, Infinity, Rockford, let alone B&O, B&W, Mark Levinson, in my opinion.

Ah! Nice gig for sampling a lot of the wares on various jalopies!

I didn't get a chance to sample the Dynaudio system when I was test driving the VW (that option package would have run the price on a Golf TDI to over $29k).

With the Bose system on my Mazda3, I was surprised by the audio quality, especially since I am familiar with how much the sound varies between different car models. That was the main reason I started this thread in the first place. And I was even more surprised when I found the Edmunds comparison test that ranked the Mazda3 Bose system first among budget premium OEM audio systems. The VW Golf Dynaudio system ranked 3rd. The Infiniti M35 Bose system also fared well compared to other higher end premium OEM systems.

Comparison Test of Six Budget Premium Audio Systems - Edmunds.com
High-End Stock Stereo Sound-Off - Edmunds.com

My 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GTV6 came with a 360 watt 7 speaker "Infinity" stereo. The 7th speaker being an 8" trunk mounted subwoofer. I place Infinity in quotes above because all drivers are actually JBL speakers as indicated by the labels on the magnets. The Infinity labeled headunit was a regular cheapo double-din model manufactured by Hyundai and installed as standard equipment in the Sonatas and Santa Fes. The only difference being that it was finished in black and had an Infinity logo. It was not very impressive out of the box. The tweeters were surprisingly smooth, and not sharp at all. However the mids were a bit veiled and lacking in detail. The subwoofer was not very loud and was actually wired in reverse phase from the factory. A popular modification when the car was new was to reverse the phase to 0 degrees by simply reversing the the two wires. This made a world of difference, but 3 months later it blew.

That's funny that your "Infinity" system still wears JBL labels underneath. Does not surprise me that there's part swapping going on between the various Harman International brands. I know that JBL and Infinity share facilities out in California, and even though their retail speakers are voiced differently and pitched to different markets, this is Harman's OEM automotive division that we're talking about.

Even though these car systems might wear Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, harman/kardon, or Infinity badges, they're all sold through Harman International's OEM car audio division, which generates 75% of Harman's revenue (a staggering number when you consider how many pro and consumer audio divisions Harman operates that rank among the market leaders).

I wouldn't be surprised if most "Bose" headunits aren't just lightly tweaked or even direct copies of the lesser standard equipment headunits supplied to those car models, with a Bose logo slapped on, much like my "Infinity". It's likely that the speakers and amplifiers are really what you're really paying for, with some of the very high end systems possibly being the exception- Audi's B&O for example. You'll notice that when comparing standard to premium factory car systems, the headunit almost always looks exactly the same, save for an additional row of buttons for added sound mode effects at most and of course the obligatory logo. Yet you can't tell for sure what has changed behind the mask until you disassemble, or receive an explanation from the manufacturer.

There have been some forum posts about the Mazda3 Bose systems, and the speakers themselves definitely differ from the standard OEM systems. For one thing, the impedance on the Bose drivers is way lower than what's used in the standard OEM system. And in order to fit the Bose drivers into the Mazda door cutouts, spacers had to be added. All of the drivers have Bose labels on them.

I know that Mazda's OEM stereo is a modular design with different options that can be plugged into the unit behind the center console. The Bose system uses the same head unit, but the power is supplied by an external Class D amp mounted under the passenger seat (also with Bose badging). With the standard OEM system, the head unit itself powers the speakers.

In your case, it's all still under the same corporate umbrella, but not under the same division that produces the actual "Infinity" products. But, since consumers know the Infinity name, that's the actual badging, even though the system itself is one among many made through Harman's OEM car audio division.

[Mash]

I admit that there have been many unpopular changes to automobiles......

Take those handcranks for starting the engine that are no longer offered... these were great for checking that you were heathly enough to drive. If you dropped dead while engine cranking, then you should not drive in the first place.......

We have a 2007 Camry V6 with VSC and 39k miles on it. The suspension is verrry interesting. Pump the tires to 35psi and it can really move. It is matronly enough to be invisible to the HP. The radio is OK (better than Ford) even if I had to reduce the bass because of some heaviness. It has been years since I reworked an auto "sound system" and maybe years more before I do again.

I suspect the V6 Honda Acorn is similar to the Camry..... a sleeper in disquise.

[Florian]

My personal favoriete is in my VW Phaeton W12. Its some "Premium" 12 speaker DSP System. I have no idea what the make is but since the car is build like the Bentley there are no rattles, creaking etc... and the sound is just there. Fullrange 3 way speakers times 4. No subwoofer that pumps somewhere.