Audionote discussion

[djluke]

Hello

I noticed an old audionote discussion going on, with a lengthy responce from Peter at AN UK.

Can I just put my comments down here.

I have been spend years swopping hi-fi components, and generally enjoying listening to music. It seems to me that the listening is the thing here. And my personal experience of Audionote products is 'THEY ARE ONE OF THE BEST MANUFACTURERS OF HIGH END AUDIO - PERIOD'

How many products truly fullfil the goal, in forgetting the technology and enjoying the music. The recent posts slipped into politics and negatives. Over the years we have all seen many maufactures vanish, Wharfedale, Garrard to name two. And the current obssession with 'theatre systems' has split the markets up. Ok, hi-end theatre is exciting, but how many can really afford the quality levels we are talking about in stereo land. Audionote have suceeded in sticking to their philosophy of hi-end, accurate and more important 'livable' sound. I have many friends who have Audionote products, and will not change brands. Indeed many 'drop out' of the hi-fi world because they are one thing 'satisfied' and see no need to change anything.
This surely is the ultimate goal, satisfaction in the music. I will buy more Audionote stuff as soon as I can afford it, no matter how long I have to wait...

Julian
Leeds
England

[kexodusc]

I don't think many will question the fine products AN produces (well, I'm only familiar with the speakers and a few pieces of electronics). I've been impressed with every AN speaker I've heard except the AX models.
Just another excellent choice and different flavor for people to look into.

[theaudiohobby]

Audio Note is just one of many...and many have found nirvana in other brands, and some after trying Audio Note.

[topspeed]

Glad you like AN. We all strive to find satisfaction, and if Peter's stuff does it for you, more power to ya! My only concern is that you appear to have closed your mind to all of the available options. Understand there is no perfect speaker, no perfect amp, no perfect anything. This rings particularly true in a hobby as subjective as audio. This is a hobby, and unless you have heard every single speaker and front end combo out there, I'm worried you may miss something. That, my friend, would be a shame.

[RGA]

I sent you a private message.

[GMichael]

I sent you a private message.

Glad to see your post RGA. Some of us were worried about you.

[JohnMichael]

Glad to see your post RGA. Some of us were worried about you.

I second that sentiment.

[Jim Clark]

. This is a hobby, and unless you have heard every single speaker and front end combo out there, I'm worried you may miss something. That, my friend, would be a shame.

Speedy, that's a semi - scary comment. There are any number of people for whom the hobby is simply watching movies in the family room or listening to tuneage in the study. "The show is the thing", you know what I mean? Of course there's always going to be something better but so what? I'd think that for many the stated to goal is to get there as far as gear goes. Once there, it should be celebrated because then thoughts of equipment and god forbid power cords, cables, and other ancillary crap can cease and the focus can be directed 100% where it belongs - on the music. Everyone's threshold is going to be different based on any number of criterea but the goal is always the same, to enjoy the music. One thing I know for certain is that even the poorest souls caught up in the death spiral of audiophillia aren't going to be able to listen to "every single speaker and front end combo out there" and why should they want to.

jc

[topspeed]

Speedy, that's a semi - scary comment. There are any number of people for whom the hobby is simply watching movies in the family room or listening to tuneage in the study. "The show is the thing", you know what I mean? Of course there's always going to be something better but so what? I'd think that for many the stated to goal is to get there as far as gear goes. Once there, it should be celebrated because then thoughts of equipment and god forbid power cords, cables, and other ancillary crap can cease and the focus can be directed 100% where it belongs - on the music. Everyone's threshold is going to be different based on any number of criterea but the goal is always the same, to enjoy the music. One thing I know for certain is that even the poorest souls caught up in the death spiral of audiophillia aren't going to be able to listen to "every single speaker and front end combo out there" and why should they want to.

jc

Agreed. The music is absolutely the goal and upon reflection, I could have chosen my wording more succintly. My concern was the close-minded tone of the OP, although I may be misreading it. I'm not in the camp that believes there are any absolutes in this world. There are no world references. There is no "best" at anything. There is a "best" to you, which is fine, but that may not hold true for everybody. We both like VSA's, but I'll be the first to say the mighty $160k VR11's don't impress me nearly as much as Wilson's WP7's, which cost 1/6 the price.

I may be a bit different than most on this board in that I hold no allegiances to any company or their culture. In my mind, it's within most competent company's ability to make one or two truly outstanding products, but this doesn't necessarily hold true across the entire portfolio.

[RGA]

Agreed. The music is absolutely the goal and upon reflection, I could have chosen my wording more succintly. My concern was the close-minded tone of the OP, although I may be misreading it. I'm not in the camp that believes there are any absolutes in this world. There are no world references. There is no "best" at anything. There is a "best" to you, which is fine, but that may not hold true for everybody. We both like VSA's, but I'll be the first to say the mighty $160k VR11's don't impress me nearly as much as Wilson's WP7's, which cost 1/6 the price.

I may be a bit different than most on this board in that I hold no allegiances to any company or their culture. In my mind, it's within most competent company's ability to make one or two truly outstanding products, but this doesn't necessarily hold true across the entire portfolio.

I'm not sure that "'THEY ARE ONE OF THE BEST MANUFACTURERS" constitutes a closed minded tone. "One of the" is not stating "the" in an absolute way. The poster has not said what else he has heard but certainly doesn't imply that he has no experience. Quite the contrary in fact.

Most of the people who buy AN from Soundhounds are much older audiophiles who have been in the audiophile upgrade game for many many years and not typically 20 somethings. Terry noted that AN is typically the destination his customers get to after owning the other stuff he has ever carried. I agree with you though on your main point about the best being applicable to you or the person auditioning and not some absolute. I could totally understand for instance someone choosing the Reference 3a Mm De Capo over the similarly priced AN K/Spe - or for that matter the Magnepan 1.6 or B&W N805. Not everyone buys things the same way or values the same things in music reproduction.

[Mr Peabody]

I do like my Krell but I have to give credit where it is due. I recently purchased an Audio Note 1.1x DAC and since I've put it into my system it gets most of the play. RGA was correct when he told me once I listened to the AN it might become the preferred DAC over the Krell. The Krell still has it's strong points but the AN is more natural sounding and does involve me more in the music. I would love to get more AN equipment but I would have to convert my entire system because Audio Note's amps are so low powered. I haven't heard AN speakers but at this point I refuse to let go of my Dynaudio. Maybe I could get an AN preamp but I'd still have to match it with a power amp. I've heard AN don't mix well with some other brands. It does fine in my system, I guess I got lucky. And again, it is only the source.....

You have to admire the owner of AN for sticking with his guns. Why do home theater if it's not your area of expertise? That's a mass market thing, where a company tries to be all things to everyone. Audio Note is clearly a company for those who enjoy fine 2 channel music reproduction. I heard a story from the CES show where the owner had all his extremely expensive gear set up to show but he played these old 78's on the system. I also understand he has one of the world's largest collections of vinyl.

It does take time to get a line to take off in a new market. You also have to do your best to educate the public. I remember years ago going into a shop hear in town and hearing of and listening to Arcam for the first time and now it has become a well known brand most every where.

[theaudiohobby]

You have to admire the owner of AN for sticking with his guns. Why do home theater if it's not your area of expertise? That's a mass market thing, where a company tries to be all things to everyone. Audio Note is clearly a company for those who enjoy fine 2 channel music reproduction. I heard a story from the CES show where the owner had all his extremely expensive gear set up to show but he played these old 78's on the system. I also understand he has one of the world's largest collections of vinyl.

It does take time to get a line to take off in a new market. You also have to do your best to educate the public. I remember years ago going into a shop hear in town and hearing of and listening to Arcam for the first time and now it has become a well known brand most every where.

Well a visit to Walrus Hifi or even Werner Musica will immediately illustrate some of the reasons why Audio Note is not as big a brand in Europe, The 2ch space is just simply much bigger in Europe, the smaller listening room sizes more or less make it inevitable.

[RGA]

Mr. Peabody. Sorry for the length but you have several questions and few here have any real experience with complete AN systems.

AN speakers J and E are physically large standmounts - The J for instance dwarfs the N805 and is larger than the Reference 3a MM De Capo. Striclty speaking I don't think it's fair to lump standmounts together just because they sit on stands. The B&W 302 and the 305 was pretty much the identical speaker except the 305 was like a 302 but in a floorstanding cabinet. I certainly don't think saying a De Capo or J or the SP Technologies Monster standmount is even remotely "like" an AX two or Dane 42 or a Totem Model One -- all are standmounts yes, but there should be a new term to separate them. I mean there are many floorstanders that are two way using a small 6 inch woofer or smaller. The term standmount typically brings to mind a small monitor like a Dane 42 and typically produces an "ahh I have an idea what to expect - good imaging no deep bass and can't play very loud."

As to your question about amps and speakers and cables Bob Neil a reviewer for Positive Feedback Magazine turned dealer carries AN and is more objective than I and carries other notable lines as does Deja Vu in Virginia. What you will find from many other experiences is that the amps and speakers go best together - certainly true if you "read between the lines" but the Bob is pretty upfront. If you buy the "classic" speakers K, J or E then you are better off with AN amps as the other amps he carries just don't do the speaker's justice (which in no way means his other amps are poor - not at all - just that it was not designed with those other amps in mind. You will find makers like Von Sweikert who used Audio Note amplifiers to test there speakers also use a big viariety of amplifiers to make sure there speakers will be able to suit other stuff reasonably well. OTOH, Peter has no interest in whether his speaker is going to work with a Bryston or Krell etc

Bob said that the Dacs 'travel well" across a variety of systems and the amps, provided a benign load travel well. The speakers need a good low negative or degeneration feedback (termed no feedback) are desirable. In one review of the J and a big time high damping factor amplifier the speaker was said to be coloured with an almost knocking sound - he put on the Conquest and that colour completely disapeared. I would say almost ALL of my auditioning has been on AN amplifiers and the Sugden A48b which is a not a high current amp. Hearing the Rotel RA 2 on the K/Spe and frankly it sounded bright. More recently on Oddysey in a too big room I felt it was pretty good but lacked the magic -- other listeners like the incredible treble extension but 3/5 of us felt it was too extended and bright (I felt it was "brighter" than the Gershman Acoustics and Ellis 1801a myself but the K also let me hear more of waht was going on on the disc but in that room with big SS over a longer term may have been fatiguing). Using a Creek at the dealer and the speaker went the other way.

If you read the positive feedback review of the AX Two sig the reviewer noted several of the same problems. The higher priced gear are created in a mirrored system so the speaker is completely designed for ONE amplifier and the amplifier designed for that speaker.

None of this is to say that people won't have more success with other amps -- a fellow audiophile on AA has the E/SE and ended up leaving Audio note amps for another top rate SET maker I believe Wavelength. Thre is a fellow using a Bryston separates set-up with his Audio Note E's, although I also know he's saving for an AN amp but he said he gets good results.

As for cables I am not a big believer in cables but the main difference between the AN E/LX and the E/Spe is the internal wiring and there is a pretty substantial improvement in sound - maybe wiring matters after all - or maybe there is a slight improvement to the crossover as well. There was a B&W owner I was talking to there who completely had his speakers re-wired with AN internal silver and he claims the improvement was terrific (but I can't say because I never heard it but he was happy so that's all the matters I guess.

If you do consider preamps you should know that supposedly the best ones start at the M3. The M1 and M2 are on the same platform. The OTO is not a true integrated amp -- AN integrated amps are actually their separates put into one case. The OTO is an M1 preamp and one of their power amps in one case with separate power supplies.

As for playing 78s records and most recently heavey metal at shows is because there is value in this music and most shows play relatively easy to do music (light Jazz, small orchestra). Heavey metal is more about tube myth busting.

"I am about to leave for the Milan Show, carrying several boxes of demo records/CDs, in one box the demo CDs and records amongst which are,

Killswitch Engage, Alive or just Breathing
Slipknot, Slipknot, The Subliminal Verses, Iowa
Meshuggah, Catch Thirtythr33
Soulfly/Sepultura, several albums
Aphex Twin, two albums, on both CD and vinyl
Clutch, Robot Hive/Exodus, Clutch, Jam Room, The Elephant Riders
Mudvayne, Lost & Found, LD50
White Stripes, Elephant and several others
Rammstein, Mutter, Reise, Reise, Herzeleid, Sehnsucht
Rage Against the Machine, everything they recorded, on both LP and CD
Cyprus Hill, Till Death do Us Part, Black Monday and one or two others
System of a Down, Korn, Doomsword, Lacuna Coil, Carcas and many many others.

Precisely because many people hold the same opinion that you, I am deliberately weighing my demonstrations more towards heavy metal and rock. For many years I have only demonstrated with classical and Jazz and a small amount of popular music, which has probably to some extent created/supported a myth that AN cannot play rock or metal, so these days I find that weighing the selection a little more broadly which is pretty good fun."

Lastly Peter, it is said in the industry, to have the largest "personal" collection of recorded music in the world at over 70,000 which has doubled since the articles of several years ago which was already said to be the biggest at 35,000. Having seen pictures of his home you have to shove albums out of the way to get anywhere and all his walls are vinyl shelving. You can't compare by contrast if you don't have albums to compare and contrrast with - and whether you buy into that article or not at least you know that he has a very significant collections of recordings to put to the test. I understand why he puts people off but at least he believes in what he is doing - I like this article http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/audio52.htm

[SlumpBuster]

Okay, I'm probably a dork for doing this, but I figured it out. If person has 75,000 records, and listens eight hours per day, five days per week, 50 weeks per year (or a standard 2000 hour work year), he will listen to an average of 14 records per day figuring a conservative 35 minutes playing time for each record. Thats 3500 records per year or 21.5 years to listen to the whole collection.

It took me a week just to get the new Oasis record off my turntable, so I'd essentially be screwed if I had that many records.

[JohnMichael]

Okay, I'm probably a dork for doing this, but I figured it out. If person has 75,000 records, and listens eight hours per day, five days per week, 50 weeks per year (or a standard 2000 hour work year), he will listen to an average of 14 records per day figuring a conservative 35 minutes playing time for each record. Thats 3500 records per year or 21.5 years to listen to the whole collection.

It took me a week just to get the new Oasis record off my turntable, so I'd essentially be screwed if I had that many records.

I would forget what I owned and would probably buy an album two or three times.

[Mr Peabody]

By the way, any one have any experience with the Audio Note cables?

[Mr Peabody]

You definitely rock hard.

That is the surprising thing, I started out thinking I will get a tube DAC for acoustic and lighter music and use the Krell for rock and more complex music but the Audio Note DAC actually sounds better, or I prefer it, on most all the music I've listened to.

I can positively hear a difference when upgrading cables and between some brands. I'd think you could as well with the gear you have. I bought a demo pair of Lexus and they do sound slightly better than the Transparent I was using. But the Transparent were entry level at around $80.00 or so, where the Lexus run a cool $178.00 new.

[RGA]

Actually those are the albums Peter uses at shows -- I go about as hard as Motley Crue and Aerosmith.

Slump Buster.

Well yes that many records means a lot have sat there and will never get played again. He is an older guy so 4 LPs a day for say 40 years - is still 58,400. Umm he's bound to have duplicates in there me thinks. Apparently he sleeps 4 hours a day so... (guess he'd have to).

[Mr Peabody]

That's a picture, an older gent who owns a company that makes some of the most expensive audio gear I know of, rockin out to Slipknot and Mudvein. I have to believe that's probably not his every day cup of tea.

[RGA]

No Classical is his main thing and his knowledge of it is vast. He has been to every major opera house and is one of the Masterpirize sponsors for classical music and heavily donates to the arts. The heavey metal is more to show tube disbelievers that it can do rock. The main reason I had so much trouble buying speakers and a better system is that I could respect a given speaker for strings and classical but they'd sound poor for rock - or vice versa. Most of my music is Rock, pop, female vocal, and jazz. My learning curve for classical is steep because I don;t have the time right now for it but I have some early favorites Albinoni and Vivaldi so far. I'm a sucker for Oboe as well.

[Mr Peabody]

We're getting a little off topic, but, this is a "discussion" board right?

That's one of the reasons I like Dynaudio so much is their ability to play any type of music well. That, along with lack of coloration, is what i call neutral.

We are fortunate enough to have a Classical station in town and they post their playlist. So if you hear something you like just note the time and look it up on their website. Vivaldi is one of my favorite composers. I also like Mozart, Borodin and Tchaikoffsky. I like the Ancient Music Society recordings who do the pieces on actual instruments from the period or replicas of them. The Reference and Chandos label offer some awesome quality recordings.

Audio is a hobby and in some instances, like mine, a passion but we do have to keep an open mind as to what gear may or may not sound good. If not, we could cheat ourselves out of some enjoyment.

Any thoughts on how a M2 would mix with a solid state amp or perhaps some one elses tube power amp? If I went this direction I'd probably look for a used Krell power amp. In tubes, I'm not sure. I would probably look for a more neutral tube amp opposed to one with a "golden glow" reputation.

[RGA]

The problem is I'm too biased to be helpful. I'm not a big believer in the hybrid approach which is essentially matching tube preamp with SS amp. Why because tubes are not or should not be tone controls. I grant that maybe many or most tube amps give the warm and fuzzies and I don't have a problem with people who use it for that reason. It's all about what you enjoy.

I am NOT a tube fan in that I will state that all tubes are better than SS because I have not heard it all. Under $2k the amp I would buy is SS.

I understand the theory discussed that a Tube preamp will add that organic quality (not to be confused with warm) and if this is the idea -- it's good because unfortunately not many speakers are geared to be driven off of low powered amps. So the SS will still "GRIP" the inneficient speakers while you largely get the sound of the preamp.

There's a reason that the Dane 42 is one of my two favorite under $1kCad. I prefer the AX Two but not really for sonic reasons but becuase I found a ready made amp match source match. While if I was a buyer in this price range I would have to spend a LOT of time piddling around trying to find an amp that both could power the speaker adequetly and also not sound grainy and bright. Though some of the Jolida Hybrids would be an interesting match because they seem well built powerful and well liked and of course have 4 ohm taps.