• 08-21-2006, 10:15 PM
    Mark_IDT
    Audio Myths I'll hear no more Adam, Jamie I'm calling you out!!!
    I'm starting this thread so we can make a list of Audio Myths that keep coming about and maybe they will get settled once and for all!!! Please no flame wars this isn't a thread to debate these myths. Please just topics only and an explanation of what the controversy is about and if need be how they would go about proving it one way or another.

    EX: Does Bi-wiring speakers from a single output on an amp improve anything?

    It can be solved by these methods:

    Plug 2 sets of cables into one speaker output on an amp and measure each to determine if the frecquency range, wattage, ohms, voltage, ect differs.

    Run the same tests on the output stage of the passive crossover to see if there is a difference between using two sets of wires or one set with the bridges in place.


    So lets hear them what are some other myths and how could they be proven if they can be proven. If the only way to come to a conclusion is double blind testing then you might as well hold your breath because we're never going to make a conclusion about what type/brand of speakers or amps sound better.

    Do I think we'll really see this stuff on Mythbusters probably not it wouldn't be very entertaining to the general public but maybe at least one of the great unsolved myths will air. Besides topics like this is what we come here for right?
  • 08-22-2006, 04:06 AM
    kexodusc
    (strolls into room...takes the vacant seat in the front row, sits down and starts munchin some peanuts...)
  • 08-22-2006, 05:22 AM
    Resident Loser
    Dream on...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    I'm starting this thread so we can make a list of Audio Myths that keep coming about and maybe they will get settled once and for all!!!

    ...young pup, dream on...

    EEs and ardent hobbyists have debated these issues since companies like Monster first put hype to the printed page...

    Some, but not all of the issues (in no particular order) are:

    1. High-priced name-brand speaker wire and ICs vs. generic/OEM inclusions

    2. Tube (or valve, if you speak that variant of the language) vs. SS

    3. After-market power cords

    4. Digital vs. analog

    5. Bose

    And while the last topic isn't a debate per se...it seems to get an inordinate amount of verbiage as a specific troll topic and even from those regulars who can't resist the occasional, off-hand bit of Bose-bashing...

    jimHJJ(...soooo, have at it...)
  • 08-22-2006, 05:26 AM
    Feanor
    Your example and the objectivist argument
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    ...

    EX: Does Bi-wiring speakers from a single output on an amp improve anything?

    It can be solved by these methods:

    Plug 2 sets of cables into one speaker output on an amp and measure each to determine if the frecquency range, wattage, ohms, voltage, ect differs.

    Run the same tests on the output stage of the passive crossover to see if there is a difference between using two sets of wires or one set with the bridges in place.

    ...

    In the example you give, there will be measurable differences between the single and bi-wire results. That's because there will be changes in the resistance, inductance, and capacitance of one vs. two wires. On the other hand, the result coming out of the passive cross over will generall be very small. The issue becomes, can you hear these differences? What then? DBT? Where DBT is concerned, my personal hypothesis is that there are really, audible differences that cannot be statistically demonstrated using conventional, ABX-type DBT designs.

    We are a long way from objective measurements that correlate exactly with perceived results. So not many myths are going to be busted to everyone's satisfaction.
  • 08-22-2006, 06:31 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    (strolls into room...takes the vacant seat in the front row, sits down and starts munchin some peanuts...)

    (sits down a few feet from Kex, starts drinking a brew from the 6 pack he brought, holds an extra brew up while eying the peanut jar.)
  • 08-22-2006, 06:47 AM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    (sits down a few feet from Kex, starts drinking a brew from the 6 pack he brought, holds an extra brew up while eying the peanut jar.)

    (reaches into pocket and extricates a funny looking cigarette. .looks around furtively, lights it up, takes a few puffs and passes it to the left...)
  • 08-22-2006, 06:53 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    (reaches into pocket and extricates a funny looking cigarette. .looks around furtively, lights it up, takes a few puffs and passes it to the left...)

    (eyes light up, looks around quickly, smiles and cups the funny ciggy in his right hand, takes another look around, puffs & passes) (hands mark a brew):thumbsup:
  • 08-22-2006, 07:11 AM
    Bernd
    Enters the smoke filled room and places himself to GMichaels left and gets led astray by being passed a herbal cigarette. Opens his bag and takes out a bottle of Jamesons Irish.
    Can't see Kex anywhere. No one on my left so will pass the cigarette back to my right.

    Wowy

    Bernd:16:
  • 08-22-2006, 07:29 AM
    JohnMichael
    Stumbles in with chilled Martini pitcher and jar of olives. Falls back into chair. Get up and apologizes to GMichael. Falls into next available seat and accepts cigarette. Inhales deeply, coughs loudly and announces it is smooth.
  • 08-22-2006, 07:38 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Stumbles in with chilled Martini pitcher and jar of olives. Falls back into chair. Get up and apologizes to GMichael. Falls into next available seat and accepts cigarette. Inhales deeply, coughs loudly and announces it is smooth.

    Whoa!:yikes:




    I spilled my beer.
  • 08-22-2006, 08:30 AM
    Florian
    Walks to the man who spilled his beer with a mop, bents down carefully and with a watching eye to clean up the mess he made for 5,15$ an hr. But life is good, so he sits down on the far right and waits for the passing round a second time....
  • 08-22-2006, 08:30 AM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bernd
    Enters the smoke filled room and places himself to GMichaels left and gets led astray by being passed a herbal cigarette. Opens his bag and takes out a bottle of Jamesons Irish.
    Can't see Kex anywhere. Not on my left so will pass the cigarette back to my right.

    Wowy

    Bernd:16:

    Enters the room and seats himself in the row behind and the seat slightly to the right of Bernd. Pulls out bottle of Lagavulin and proclaims to Bernd that it is superior to Jamesons. Objectivist to my left produces data to show they all taste the same. Bernd and Musicoverall calmly shove a passing funny smelling cigarette up Objectivists bunghole, thereby resolving myth but making funny smelling cigarette even more funny smelling.
  • 08-22-2006, 08:49 AM
    GMichael
    (picks up the rest of his beer, borrows the Lagavulin and the Jamesons, pours them both into the beer carefully so as not to mix any on them together, waits for the ciggy to come around again, shakes the bottle, puts it to his mouth, and takes it all in at once. takes a deep puff and passes while turning purple)
  • 08-22-2006, 08:52 AM
    RGA
    Calling something a myth also does not make it one.

    But hey you can always support the DBT -- I can save you all more money TDK illustrated that nobody could tell the difference between tape versus cd. UHF concocted a test that while not a DBT was actually superior to a DBT by having people listen to cd and asked to determine when the changeover to tape began -- people could not even hear the hickup switch. People suck at short term sessions where they need to hear subtle changes. UHF mistakingly call this a DBT when in fact it was more of an illustration that suc tests can reduce one's ability to hear effectively in testing environment --- in that again you can;t tell the difference between tape and cd on such a test but of course you CAN outside the test. Basically they were trying to debunk the test. Of course their are about 10 other better ways to do it - starting with taking 2 University begineer psych courses and you will know the great weakness in the ay it is applied in audio in terms of validity and the fact that they manage to mess up the reliability. Reliability is increased with the number of trials and lessened with few trials. Getting at the meaning of trials is also butchered by most peple on the boards. Most tests are set-up as 10-16 sessions. 9/10 is statistically significant to the .05 level But the same .05 level is reached with a 6/10 ten times with one fail at 59/100. Yet if Sanyo is running the test they would want the 10 trial test so if the person scores 6 they can claim victory and their $45.00 player is as good anyone's. If the $2k maker is running the test they can;t win -- because f the person scores 60/100 they may very well WIN in probability terms but that is still a hard number to sell to people,

    My view is simple -- if you think you are right and you support the DBT then buy the Sanyo -- if you think you can hear the difference (even after being in DBT''s and running them and getting A+ grades at University running them) and you remain convinced that some cd players sound better like me -- then put the money in it. Just don't tell the other side what to do. I have heard plenty of cheap players that sound as good and in a few cases better than far more expensive audio jewelry (same for amps) so I am not going to tell those people they are wrong -- ten years ago I heard a $5k Wadia single disc transport sound no better than a mega changer -- and that was sighted into 10K electrostats professionally set-up -- so yes if people heard that then there is HUGE reason to believe the high end is a scam -- a great BIG chunk of it is.

    Ohh and yes I have those darn fangled tubes too -- but that is a choice of preference -- Last I checked we are still allowed to make those -- even if technically speaking it measures worse. A Ferarri measures worse than a Honda CIvic hatchback. -- Just look at the gas mileage and number of times it needs to be serviced. It's obvious the Honda is better.
    :16:
  • 08-22-2006, 09:45 AM
    audio_dude
    (stumbles in, hitting walls and bumping into things, vomits onto flo. takes out hip flask, takes a swig and offers it around. 20 seconds later, passed out.)
  • 08-22-2006, 09:46 AM
    Bernd
    Sharing some Lagavulin with musicoverall as the Jameson has mysteriously disappeared. From memory, the Jameson has more depth, but the Lagavulin has a brighter lit flavour.:ciappa:
    Not sure about the newly added flavour of the funny cigarette.
    JohnMichael, how about a couple olives?

    Yeah baby

    Bernd:16:
  • 08-22-2006, 09:47 AM
    Florian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by audio_dude
    (stumbles in, hitting walls and bumping into things, vomits onto flo. takes out hip flask, takes a swig and offers it around. 20 seconds later, passed out.)

    While passed out, Flo beats the living **** out of him. Steals his flask, takes a zip and passes out too
  • 08-22-2006, 10:01 AM
    musicoverall
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    While passed out, Flo beats the living **** out of him. Steals his flask, takes a zip and passes out too

    (stumbles around with scotch in hand, watches fight, looks up to see Florian's 8 foot tall, 1300 hundred pound friend, runs madly from room screaming "Godzirra, Godzirra" at top of lungs, runs into Bernd, Irish Whiskey and Scotch go flying and merge, whereupon we market new drink with ads that go "Hey, you got your whiskey in my scotch!" and the retort "Hey, you got your scotch in my whiskey!". But not until after Markw ties us up with Audioquest cables and beats the crap out of both of us for befouling his last remaining funny cigarette.)
  • 08-22-2006, 12:12 PM
    Resident Loser
    Bada-bing...bada-boom...
    ...silly me...and I always thought it took two to tango...but now I see in the audio realm it only takes one POV to have an argument...

    They must do it in their spare time...existential entertainment at it's best...

    jimHJJ(...leans back...shakes head and chuckles quietly...recalls the good 'ol days of baggies containing various cultivated herbs, liters of Old #7 and takes a sip of sweet iced tea...)
  • 08-22-2006, 12:24 PM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Florian
    While passed out, Flo beats the living **** out of him. Steals his flask, takes a zip and passes out too

    While these two are out cold, everyone helps put them into compromising positions, and then take pictures.:idea:
  • 08-22-2006, 12:25 PM
    JohnMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bernd
    Sharing some Lagavulin with musicoverall as the Jameson has mysteriously disappeared. From memory, the Jameson has more depth, but the Lagavulin has a brighter lit flavour.:ciappa:
    Not sure about the newly added flavour of the funny cigarette.
    JohnMichael, how about a couple olives?

    Yeah baby

    Bernd:16:


    Of course Bernd you can have some olives. I am on my way to the lobby for some popcorn and nachos. I have a serious case of the munchies.
  • 08-22-2006, 12:30 PM
    JohnMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    While these two are out cold, everyone helps put them into compromising positions, and then take pictures.:idea:



    I will choreograph the poses after I get my snacks. Uh what direction is the lobby?
  • 08-22-2006, 12:31 PM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    I will choreograph the poses after I get my snacks. Uh what direction is the lobby?

    Follow the pink & purple lights along the floor.
  • 08-22-2006, 07:29 PM
    dean_martin
    Walks in late as usual, but nonetheless holdin'. Calmy takes a seat on the rug carefully avoiding the puke, finds the 30 year old copy of DSOM under the couch, sets it in his lap, pulls something from his pocket and rolls one that looks like a VW Beetle. Everyone begins to perk up.
  • 08-23-2006, 02:09 AM
    Mark_IDT
    OK so my thinking was a little off last night I have after all been on binge of sobriety for weeks. My mind has been tweeking thus the result you saw last night.

    Enters the room your all in and Yells (AYY I NEEDS A FRIGGEN HIT!!) with my best Ewan Mecgreggor impresion from trainspotting

    OK so my example of how to conduct an experiment wouldn't work but I know there has to be way to scientifically come up with an answer some other way.

    Other myths rathar missconceptions about subwoofers could be addresses.
    such as:

    10"s hit harder and are better for rock and 15"s can't hit as hard because they move slow and thus are only for rap music because they sound deeper.

    Just about everyone I know that thinks they know about car stereo say this dealers say it also. Do your homework and dig deep enough you'll find that a 15" can hit just as hard as a 10". The 10" lacks low extension so it appears as if it has more punch because you cant hear the lows you should be hearing that the 15 will reach. So sence because they hear the lower sounds from a 15" they think it's slower and all together lower sounding. There half right it does sound deeper but it's also hitting all the higher hz that the 10 is except for just a few hz at the wery top that usually crosses over to the midrange speakers.


    I know theres a ton of lies and misconceptions out there that could be proven otherwise through some sort or scientific method.
  • 08-23-2006, 04:11 AM
    kexodusc
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mark_IDT
    Other myths rathar missconceptions about subwoofers could be addresses.
    such as:

    10"s hit harder and are better for rock and 15"s can't hit as hard because they move slow and thus are only for rap music because they sound deeper.

    Just about everyone I know that thinks they know about car stereo say this dealers say it also. Do your homework and dig deep enough you'll find that a 15" can hit just as hard as a 10". The 10" lacks low extension so it appears as if it has more punch because you cant hear the lows you should be hearing that the 15 will reach. So sence because they hear the lower sounds from a 15" they think it's slower and all together lower sounding. There half right it does sound deeper but it's also hitting all the higher hz that the 10 is except for just a few hz at the wery top that usually crosses over to the midrange speakers.


    I know theres a ton of lies and misconceptions out there that could be proven otherwise through some sort or scientific method.

    Woofer size has nothing to do with woofer speed - compliance and excursion will affect the woofers transient response or speed and the tightness or slam.

    15" woofers are actually better at this. It's swept volume of air you need to consider. A 15" woofer moves about 6 times the air of a 10" sub. That means a 10" sub has to move 6 times as forcefully to match the output of the larger sub - since 15" magnets and motors are usually bigger, they are also more powerful,...so the 10" woofer then relies on its excursion to push air - the further it moves, the less control it will have, transient response suffers.

    I think with car subs especially, the issue was there's just a lot of crappy, power sucking, hi-excursion subs that sound bad. In a cabin the subs benefit from transfer function (cabin gain) and you can get away with 10 and 12" woofers. - 15" are usually overkill and just for competitions...
  • 08-23-2006, 02:51 PM
    hermanv
    Walks in room, notices nice collection of local color, asks first awake person, "Why are we here?"

    There's no answer.
  • 08-24-2006, 09:23 AM
    audio_dude
    SLowly wakes up

    massive pounding headache, tries to get up to find some aspirin, just sort of stumbles in to the wall and passes out again.
  • 08-24-2006, 11:39 AM
    GMichael
    Runs back into the room full of energy. Turns on the lights as bright as they'll go. Skips over to the stereo. Throws on Ted Nugent's Double live Gonzo and cranks it up as loud as it will go. Starts handing out OJ & coffee. Bagels are coming:15:
  • 08-24-2006, 12:03 PM
    markw
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    Runs back into the room full of energy. Turns on the lights as bright as they'll go. Skips over to the stereo. Throws on Ted Nugent's Double live Gonzo and cranks it up as loud as it will go.

    The other sleeping denizens jump to their feet, blink and look around, wrap GMichael in a blanket, tie it closed, toss him in the trunk of the '68 Caddy DeVille in the front yard, slam it shut, stumble back inside, turn off the stereo and the lights, and go back to sleep.
  • 08-24-2006, 12:05 PM
    JohnMichael
    Wakes up, shields eyes and reaches for coffee. Makes rude gesture to GMichael for being so perky.
  • 08-24-2006, 12:23 PM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    The other sleeping denizens jump to their feet, blink and look around, wrap GMichael in a blanket, tie it closed, toss him in the trunk of the '68 Caddy DeVille in the front yard, slam it shut, stumble back inside, turn off the stereo and the lights, and go back to sleep.

    Dances back into the room with the blanket slung over his shoulder. It's filled up like Santa's red bag on X-mas eve. Everyone turns to him with hatred in their eyes. He tosses the blanket & leafy contents into the fireplace which is burning bright. Once it starts to smoke real good he closes the flu. The room begins to fill with smoke again. Everyone seems to calm down. All is good in Tinsel Town once again.
  • 08-24-2006, 12:57 PM
    L.J.
    LJ walks into room....
    .... grabs his favorite drink, a nice snack, sits back and enjoys the show!







    You guys are waaaay toooo funny!! :lol:
  • 08-24-2006, 05:15 PM
    E-Stat
    E-Stat joins the gathering
    Sets down dram of Laphroaig, then looks to find the doobie. Oh, there it is.

    Then hooks up projector to show Mythbuster video.

    Breakin' glass

    rw
  • 08-24-2006, 07:52 PM
    musicoverall
    Hmmmm
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Sets down dram of Laphroaig, then looks to find the doobie. Oh, there it is.

    Then hooks up projector to show Mythbuster video.

    Breakin' glass

    rw

    Notices the Laphroaig, sets down bottle of Lagavulin, noting to self that he had never tried the peatier malt. Picks up bottle while E-stat is hooking up projector, sips and pronounces it good. Chugs half the bottle, passes out and has nightmares of being forced into recompense by repositioning ungodly large electrostats with a hangover, with a very irritated E-Stat holding empty Laphroaig bottle and a buggy whip....
  • 08-24-2006, 09:36 PM
    emorphien
    what a circle jerk :lol:
  • 08-24-2006, 11:49 PM
    Bernd
    Wakes up - Bad headache - untangles himself from the Audioquest cables. Dreamed got beaten up together with musicoverall, who mumbles something about 1300 pounds and 8 foot, by markw. Takes a good look around. Room has filled up with people and smoke, and over there is Santa Claus. Man this is heavy, how long have I been out? Remembers the small bag of shrooms, takes a couple and passes it to his left before enjoying a wild and colorful movie and a cream cheese and smoked salmon Bagel.

    Bernd:6:
  • 08-25-2006, 12:36 AM
    jtgofish
    Takes out his six string banjo[one for each finger].Moves out to the front porch and sits in his hand wittled rockin chair,spits out his chewin tabaccy ,adjusts the crotch on his coveralls,takes a swig from his moonshine jug,[with added bayou peet so it tastes just like Lophroaig],farts,ponders on the fact that Pluto aint no longer no planet, and then begins to play They Don't Make Jews No More Like They Did When They Made Jesus.
  • 08-25-2006, 05:13 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Wakes up, shields eyes and reaches for coffee. Makes rude gesture to GMichael for being so perky.

    Oh, thank you John. You're number one with me too.

    (brings in an old tube driven Fender Twin Reverb amp and two guitars. looks around to see who else wants to jam)
  • 08-25-2006, 05:40 AM
    bobsticks
    Snatches a guitar and fingerpicks a dainty mazurka to add ambience to the already surreal scenery. Notes absence of malted beverages and markw's very considerable point and stares longingly at the door...