Associated Review Equipment Price Range Question

[atomicAdam]

Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

[dakatabg]

Sounds good but many arguments will occur

[atomicAdam]

Pretty sure most of the members here are used to that sort of thing.

[Ajani]

That's the classic debate...

IMO, the best reviews (though not really practical for the reviewer, unless he has a load of different gear lying around) would be to review items with both like priced gear and his reference (ultra-expensive setup)... Also, he can review it with cheaper gear to see how much of the sound quality is sacrificed that way...

Picking just one of the 3 options will always limit the usefulness of the review...

If you review the item with reference level gear, then that says nothing of whether it would work with the kind of gear persons are likely to match it to..

If you review it with similarly priced gear, then you never know if it is a rare jewel that should really be paired with more expensive gear...

If you review it with really cheap gear, then you are not experiencing what it is really capable of, nor comparing it with the kind of gear it will likely be matched with...


IF, I had to pick one and only one, I'd go with pairing it with reference gear to know how the product fares in absolute terms... Though, I'm sure many persons would prefer it to be paired with similar priced gear...

[harley .guy07]

I see no problems with it myself seeing that a lot of very expensive components have been embarrassed by lower priced more budget minded high end stuff so I think price should not be a killer on if two components could be compared. I have seen many people pair very expensive speakers with more budget high end amps and preamps and have excellent results. Go for it is what I say but there will be people out there that are opposed to this type of thing for several reasons including seeing some components for what they are which are overpriced gear with no reasonable improvement in sound compared to lower priced stuff.

[atomicAdam]

I agree with you Ajani - The more the better - but I really mean just to pick one.

See - right now I'm kind of torn - I as a reader - have sometime been pretty ticked to see a $20,000 CDP as a source for $800 speakers. I kind of feel it isn't fair at all to the reader because if they are in the market for $800 speakers they, assuming of course, are probably not in the market for a $20,000 CDP. To me that is absolutely not fair to make that pairing.

But, conversely, I do see it as completely fair to pair something of lower cost to a system of much higher cost because than the reviewer would/should be able to, as you pointed out, to learn what the entry level gear can do, given the most/best opportunity to shine. Fair or not fair to the reader, it is more fair to the equipment.

Now, I'd never think it was fair to reviewer, manufacturer, or reader to pair an extensively pricey product with gear 10x of lesser value. Even if the lower costing gear are jewels among the thorns, it almost certainly isn't going to be paired that way in the purchasers home.

[02audionoob]

If I had to choose only one scenario, I'd want the review with comparably priced components. If a source's sound has a flaw that only associated gear at 10x the source's cost can reveal, I might not be interested in learning about that.

[RGA]

It has nothing really to do with cost but rather design. But I have debated this with reviewers before. However, there are some politics involved with reviewing gear that can't be avoided. My system is in a certain price range - the fact that it may sound better than many $100,000 systems is totally irrelevant because the manufacture of an $80,000 CD player is not going to give me their player because the review won't be taken seriously amongst those people who own half million dollar stereos. Further, it is highly unlikely that I would purchase the reviewed product given my budget so they also can't make a sale.

Personally, I am not all that interested in reviewing $50k pieces because they're probably all very good but who is reading? The rich guys which are fewer in numbers and the ones who are audiophiles with that kind of money are not buying based on reviews.

The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.

[Hyfi]

I am all for reviewing a $1000 amp and a $20,000 amp when it is clearly shown that the gain is not that great when using the latter.

I also think that it should be demonstrated that a $1k amp will drive a pair of $40,000 speakers and you don't need a $10k amp to do the job.

But you never see those kind of reviews because it undermines the manufactures and sellers of ridiculously high end items, which are really more art than actually being 19000 times better than the low end bargain such as a Stratos amp.

I certainly enjoyed listening to $100k systems when I had the chance but I also think it's a crazy hobby for those with disposable cash.

[kexodusc]

What's your goal?

Is it to entertain? Most of the gear reviews I read through magazine subscriptions, web posts, and online rags are mostly a form of diversion. If it is, then yeah, mixing with unrealistic complementary gear is fine, and many would argue more interesting.

Is it to provide a benchmark for potential purchasing decisions? In that case I think there's far more value in the review to sticking with gear in a somewhat reasonable range price-wise, because it bears a better resemeblance to how users will actually use the equipment.

That said, I have found weak correlation (but still positive) between price and performance of gear so that range might necessarily need to be large anyway.

Hey, if you never compared a $300 piece to a $3000 piece, or a $5000 model to a $50,000 model, we'd never learn where the great-value products are!

Would it just not be possible to do both, include the super expensive piece, and a more homogenous unit? It seems to me getting the more expensive unit is usually the hardest part.

[Ajani]

I am all for reviewing a $1000 amp and a $20,000 amp when it is clearly shown that the gain is not that great when using the latter.

I also think that it should be demonstrated that a $1k amp will drive a pair of $40,000 speakers and you don't need a $10k amp to do the job.

But you never see those kind of reviews because it undermines the manufactures and sellers of ridiculously high end items, which are really more art than actually being 19000 times better than the low end bargain such as a Stratos amp.

I certainly enjoyed listening to $100k systems when I had the chance but I also think it's a crazy hobby for those with disposable cash.

While I agree with your general point, you can't use the word "never" as there are many reviews that do as you stated... It's just that the majority of reviews don't...

For example, The Absolute Sound's review of the Odyssey Audio Khartago:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tas-19...ereo-amplifier

Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...

[Ajani]

It has nothing really to do with cost but rather design. But I have debated this with reviewers before. However, there are some politics involved with reviewing gear that can't be avoided. My system is in a certain price range - the fact that it may sound better than many $100,000 systems is totally irrelevant because the manufacture of an $80,000 CD player is not going to give me their player because the review won't be taken seriously amongst those people who own half million dollar stereos. Further, it is highly unlikely that I would purchase the reviewed product given my budget so they also can't make a sale.

I agree with the CD manufacturer... What would be the point of you reviewing an $80K CD player? If you say it's the best CD player you've ever heard, who cares? Chances are that's because it's also by far the most expensive CD player you've ever had in your setup, so that doesn't tell a potential buyer whether it really sounds like an $80K CD player should... If you say it sounds no better than your $4K CD player, then the question will be asked whether your system is good enough to discern the difference anyway... So other than to potentially make those of us who can't afford the really expensive gear feel better about ourselves, what would be the point?


I've actually seen a few of those 'nonsense' reviews: where a guy with the cheapest NAD CD/Integrated amp combo and some PSB Image speakers attempts to review a $5K pair of speakers... SHOCKINGLY, the $5K speakers were the best sound he had ever heard in his system...


Also, any affordable system can sound better than a $100K one, based on your preferences... So you may find that your SET/High Efficiency setup sounds better than a $100K Megawatt SS/Low Efficiency system... That doesn't mean that your system it is up to the standard of a $100K SET/HE system...

Personally, I am not all that interested in reviewing $50k pieces because they're probably all very good but who is reading? The rich guys which are fewer in numbers and the ones who are audiophiles with that kind of money are not buying based on reviews.

The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.

That is a question I asked sometime ago on the Stereophile forums. According to John Atkinson their surveys indicate that their readers prefer to read about more expensive gear (above $10K) than the more affordable stuff they might realistically be able to buy... Considering how good Stereophile's sales are, I guess there really are a lot of persons interested in reading about ultra-expensive gear...

I, however, almost never read a review of ultra-expensive gear as it is completely irrelevant to my buying decisions... I could conceivably buy gear below $10K (even if not in the immediate future), but looking at $50K pieces is like reading a review of a Ferrari...

[Hyfi]

While I agree with your general point, you can't use the word "never" as there are many reviews that do as you stated... It's just that the majority of reviews don't...

For example, The Absolute Sound's review of the Odyssey Audio Khartago:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tas-19...ereo-amplifier

Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...

OK so I can't say never. Good review pointed out and that is what us little guys need to see and understand.

I read Stereophile for many years but got bored with the high brow ratings and reviews. Almost every reviewer used classical or other music most don't listen to for reviews anyway. It was nice eye candy for several years anyway.

[atomicAdam]

... I could conceivably buy gear below $10K (even if not in the immediate future), but looking at $50K pieces is like reading a review of a Ferrari...

Why read about a Ferrari when you can watch TopGear put it though some absolutely crazy challenge, with good cinematography and music.

[atomicAdam]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that actually liking the sound of a system has very little to do with the quality of it. This is obvious and I think we'd kind of all agree with this, but....

I think things like staging, resolution, timing, accuracy, dynamics, sizing, can all be judged, and fairly, even if you don't like the sound of a system. And in saying that, I've found there is more than just a 'little' correlation between price and getting these things right.

I've heard sub $50,000 system I 'like' better than several $500,000 systems. But, the ability of the higher end system to get all the above components right, obviously makes it a superior system weather I liked it or not.

But this is a slight digression of my original question.

I'd like to get back to the original point. I am much more inclined to want to read a review where all the components seem to fit within a similar price range. Now if you have absolute gems in that price range, things that do/can perform better than much higher priced stuff, than good for you are the reviewer, and good for the reader, because they can afford it.

[Ajani]

Why read about a Ferrari when you can watch TopGear put it though some absolutely crazy challenge, with good cinematography and music.

LOL... That's actually the only way I'd check out a Ferrari... Top Gear is just about the fun... Reading a review of a Ferrari would be a boring waste of time for me...

Now if only the Top Gear team would review High End Stereos...

[atomicAdam]

Also, many mags get dissed by audiophiles for even implying that affordable products are really good (and not just good for the money)... Just consider how many audiophiles are quick to complain whenever an affordable product is rated Class A by Stereophile (even worse if an expensive product they own is rated Class B)...

I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

[atomicAdam]

Now if only the Top Gear team would review High End Stereos...

I don't really like/care too much/ about cars. But I watch TopGear almost religiously. (that being the type of religion where you go to church when you feel guilty about not going) - anyways - the point being, I've been thinking about this. How to review audio equipment like TopGear reviews cars.

The problem being, cars are so easy to video. They go fast, they make a rumbling noise, and sometimes they do some awesome things.

Tubes glow, some speakers will vibrate, but basically everything sits there. That is pretty boring to watch. It would seem maybe one would have cross Myth Busters/TopGear to find something one could do with audio equipment.

[Ajani]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and state that actually liking the sound of a system has very little to do with the quality of it. This is obvious and I think we'd kind of all agree with this, but....

I think things like staging, resolution, timing, accuracy, dynamics, sizing, can all be judged, and fairly, even if you don't like the sound of a system. And in saying that, I've found there is more than just a 'little' correlation between price and getting these things right.

I've heard sub $50,000 system I 'like' better than several $500,000 systems. But, the ability of the higher end system to get all the above components right, obviously makes it a superior system weather I liked it or not.

Yep, that's the part of the HiFi hobby that I think many persons don't immediately realize... Listening preference is not the same as quality... Also, scoring highly in many categories doesn't mean that the overall sound is enjoyable...

That's why we'll see hobbyists and reviewers raving about an affordable product, that is not the last word in accuracy, detail or dynamics but somehow conveys the musical message (or something like that)...

But this is a slight digression of my original question.

I'd like to get back to the original point. I am much more inclined to want to read a review where all the components seem to fit within a similar price range. Now if you have absolute gems in that price range, things that do/can perform better than much higher priced stuff, than good for you are the reviewer, and good for the reader, because they can afford it.

I think most persons prefer reviews the way you describe there... However, for me, I don't like those type of reviews as much anymore, since I find that a group test of similarly priced items only tells me which one is the pick of the price range... However, it doesn't tell me whether that price range will get me high quality sound, nor whether I could get virtually the same quality for say half the price... Only reviews in absolute terms really tells me where a product really stands...

Even though the implementation leaves a lot to be desired, I think the overall aim of Stereophile's recommended component's list is what I'm looking for... I want to know if a $300 DAC is better than/as good as/inferior to a $3,000 DAC... That way I know how much I really need to spend to get a quality system...

[Ajani]

I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

Interestingly, I generally just refer to "techno-philes" as audiophiles and "music-philes" as music lovers...

I believe that you can be one or both of them... Some persons love both music and the tech, while others really only love one... The "audiophile" who spends more time thinking about his next tweak/upgrade than listening to music is a tech lover... The one who has delayed upgrading his system for a few years, while amassing a massive collection of albums (that he plays constantly) is a music lover...

I also think that we can be more one than the other at different times in our lives... There are times when all I'm interested in is the music... Then there are times when the upgrade bug bites me really hard...

[Ajani]

I don't really like/care too much/ about cars. But I watch TopGear almost religiously. (that being the type of religion where you go to church when you feel guilty about not going) - anyways - the point being, I've been thinking about this. How to review audio equipment like TopGear reviews cars.

The problem being, cars are so easy to video. They go fast, they make a rumbling noise, and sometimes they do some awesome things.

Tubes glow, some speakers will vibrate, but basically everything sits there. That is pretty boring to watch. It would seem maybe one would have cross Myth Busters/TopGear to find something one could do with audio equipment.

I think many Top Gear viewers are just like you... My brother and I watch Top Gear for the same reasons, despite neither of us being really into cars...

Another show I used to watch was about video games "X-Play"... I was never a serious gamer but I watched the show regularly cuz it was fun...

If you can somehow figure out a way to make audio reviews fun to read/watch, then you'd find that non-audiophiles will be regular readers/viewers of your work...

[Feanor]

....
The budget stuff is more interesting to me to see what can be done for the average person (me) and is somewhat affordable (sanely priced). I bet this generates more readers because it is the kind of stuff in the $2-8k range where people are upgrading their small systems to that sort of per piece price point and probably ending their travel there.

I'm with you there, Richard.

This is my problem with the Stereophile and TAS: too much extremely expensive stuff and too little in the every-man category. I'm PO'd when I hear a $5000 and even $10k components described as "entry level".

[Feanor]

Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

Is that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

It's relative. So sometimes a component at $1000 is so good that it actually needs to be review against $3000 competition and with associated equipment far above what we'd normally expect. Some examples perhaps???

• Magneplanar MG 1.6 / 1.7's @ <$2000 driven by $5000 amps.
• Class-D-Audio SDS amps at <$700 against $3k amps.

On the other hand, as RGA suggests, it's pointless from any perspective to evaluate an $85k component in a system otheriwise totaling, say, $5k.

[poppachubby]

Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

[Ajani]

Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics...