Associated Review Equipment Price Range Question

[poppachubby]

PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics...

Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!

[Ajani]

Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!

As ridiculous as that seems, suppose you had a slightly more plausible scenario, like this:

What if you had a budget of $20K for a system, and you found that a $1K Amp and $1K DAC were up to the task of driving $18K speakers... Would you still go for one of the traditional ratios such as equal amounts on Amp, DAC and Speakers... Which would result in you having approx. $7K speakers with $13K of electronics... OR would you get the $18K speakers with $2K of electronics? (Assuming, of course, that the $18K speakers are a real step up from the $7K models)

Another option if you were content with the sound of the $7K speakers is to buy them and the $2K electronics... Thus spending $9K to get the same sound quality you would have achieved, with a traditional spending ratio, at $20K...

[poppachubby]

Regardless of amounts, I wouldn't approach it with any formula as far as ratio spending is concerned. I would tirelessly begin to research and audition, surely with one or two goals in mind. In the end, who knows how it would be spent, but I can tell you that I would only care about the end result.

Speakers could be a good starting point I suppose. As far as how much to budget, I think this weighs into having an overall goal or two.

[Ajani]

Regardless of amounts, I wouldn't approach it with any formula as far as ratio spending is concerned. I would tirelessly begin to research and audition, surely with one or two goals in mind. In the end, who knows how it would be spent, but I can tell you that I would only care about the end result.

Speakers could be a good starting point I suppose. As far as how much to budget, I think this weighs into having an overall goal or two.

Which means that in real life you don't necessarily care about similarly priced components... You're looking to achieve a sonic goal... So a review in absolute terms, might serve you better than a review of similar priced gear....

[poppachubby]

Right, but generally speaking we must equate dollars with quality, sonics, etc. Sure, value isn't everything but I would rather not be left guessing at the end of a review. Synergy is a fickle measurement. So an "out of place" piece worked well for the reviewer, will that be the rule of thumb?

I suppose both ways will produce interesting reviews. It all depends what the reader hopes to take away. I would think more times than not, a reader is trying to guage things for themselves rather than simply be entertained.

So we assume once again that the guy who wants to read a review on a NAD cdp, does not care how it sounds in a super powered system. The law of averages...

[E-Stat]

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment? ...Or what about opposite.

Ideally, both. Here is a baseline of what can be done using stellar reference component "A". Here are the aspects in which lesser piece of gear "B" falls short of that reference. And, here is how "B" compares to a similarly priced model "C" having perhaps a slightly different list of compromises as compared with reference "A". Which priorities matter most to you? What would be the cost to elevate the performance to a higher level? That's how I ended up selecting my GamuT CD player years ago. I heard it compared directly to the wonderful Burmester 969/970 combo in an exceptional system. I knew exactly what I was getting - and what I was not.

rw

[hifitommy]

the first time i saw a budget component (a monitor sized B&W) with a costly one (a big krell amp) was when Bert Whyte did so in AUDIO magazine decades ago. at first i thought it to be foolish but then i realized the speaker was going to be driven to its best capability. no receiver with a wimpy power supply to fall apart on prodigious peaks.

conversely, there are those that say the best SOURCE used will yield the best sound from lesser equipment. vide the linn approach. yes, trying the DUT in a system of its peers is a great idea, so it is with the previous scenarios.

i go and listen to the best systems that are available to me just to see how good it can be just as i have gone to organized bose demos that showed me what is missing. $5k for a cartridge? well, yes. things DO get better up there just as in TTs (walker, rockport, clearaudio). is it necessary in my system...no but when i hear excellence emanating from a $400 cartridge that resembles one at $5k, i look into buying the $400 one.

we need to keep an open mind so we can have the best musical enjoyment we can achieve within our means. if our means increase greatly, we have a good idea which direction to go. also, i guide people with those greater means now and again.

[Raj J]

Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

good day mate!
the main thing with reviews is to remember that these reviewers get paid! that's their job dam it! they also act as ambassadors to the brand and manufacturers, hence if no good review then no good follow up - means no good business.
as one person already stated, it doesn't really matter what the component is or how much it costs, as long as the reader has a good idea of how it's going to or supposed to sound. believe me, none of the reviews live up to their expectations other than just a handful, because when you acutally visit the dealer and audition off the demo the sound is well... different! this is to do with so many factors; cables, interconnects, AC mains, power cords, line conditioners/equipment placements & speaker positioning, room acoustics etc.

overall, in my opinion regardless of system type or brand - if the system as a whole can deliver close as possible to what is referred to as "the absolute sound" then that's the one you want within your budget of course.

just this last weekend (saturday night) I was at my usual jazz cafe listening to a live jazz trio - electric bass, acoustic guitar, and drums with added percussion. the sound was unbelievable! it was natural, LOUD, and very musical, very powerful, dynamic, lightening fast and full of life and body, and very highy energy, you could feel the power at the same time you start tapping your feet to the tune automatically.

of course no playback highend audio system can equal a live performance. but there are systems that come quite close to what I heard on Saturday night on a very realistic scale.
1. the Wilson Alexandria speakers driven with Audio Research amplification all the way can re-recreate this, including Apogee Divas. The Sonus Faber Stradevari driven with Pass labs are equally good.
2. my vey own Quad ESL 2905's with Conrad Johnson amplification (ACT2 preamp and MV60se power amp) can put out a very impresive show as well.

personally I prefer my Quad system because of the natural tones electrostats are capable of re-producing plus their lightening fast transients, which are very apparent on a live performance.
although the Wilson Alexandria's are a pleasure to lsiten to. I cannot afford them, but they would certainly be an ultimate speaker system to own!

happy listening! and trust YOUR EARS! and not the reviewers...
just keep the reviews as guidelines, and that's about it!
Raj J

[LeRoy]

Quick questions for all ya good folks, and maybe you bad ones too, here on the forums.

What do you think of a review that pairs an entry level product for review (say sub $1000) with equipment that is in a much higher price bracket? I

s that fair to the product for review? Is that fair to the review? Is that fair to the reader?

Should products be reviewed with roughly equally priced equipment?

Or what about opposite. Say $40,000 speakers with $2,000 amplifier and associated equipment?

What do you think?

-adam

Out of necessity to trouble shoot my primary system, I swapped out the Belles Soloist Pre & Amp with my Rega Brio 3. I was quite surprised and delighted to hear my $699 RB3 outperform the Belles rig @ $2K.

Seems like there is no synergy like synergy just kinda happening and not by any deliberate forethought of system design. The RB3, Canton GLE 403, and Stello Signature DAC & Transport just enhance each other and blend so well. The presentation is now more delicate in the high end, more insightful to the body of the music as a whole, tighter bass an more in control, and the Canton's airy-ness is more realized with the RB3.

Who's a thunk a $699/retail integrated would outdo a $2K separates amplification. Not me that's for sure but that's whats happening over here. What makes this weeks discovery so sweet for me is that I only paid $353.xx for the RB3, gently used. I think I'll keep it as my main amp from here and follow the suggestions of RGA and other's who have touted the use of energy efficient speakers with low powered amps...like the RB3 at 49 WPC.

LeRoy

[RGA]

I am going to go back to the design over price argument for a moment. Loudspeakers have certain inhehrent sounds that you can throw money at all day long and it won't posess the sound of another design. A single driver Teresonic speaker or a King Sound Electrostatic or electrosts and planars may cost a lot less than a giant $80,000 Wilson but many fans of panels and single drivers like the kind of presentation offerred that even if the panel is $5k it will sound better to them than the Maxx3.

Certainly there are preeferences and we may even agree on sonic aspects. I discussed the AN E with a fellow who agreed with me that they were "balanced" speakers but were not state of the art in any single area. He demands that a speaker be state of the art in some given area even if it is truly terrible in some other areas of sound. That makes no sense to me but there you go - it's a preference and you can't fault someone for that.

I discussed the budget issue with Dagogo's own Fred Crowder. Fred is the deepest pocketed reviewer on our staff - and probably most staffs as he owns $192,000 Acapella Triolon speakers, $95,000 Audio Note Kegon Amplifiers etc. Obviously, he has heard a LOT of amplifiers and speakers over the last 30 years of attending virtually every show and auditioning stuff in his home. Like someone mentioned - if I say and $80k amp is the best I have ever heard it means less when my amplifier is $4,000. Even though I have heard a fair number of ultra expensive amplifiers and even though I may have every bit the hearing ability (perhaps better in the frequency range given age etc).

Further there are design preferences. I prefer the sound of Single Ended amplifiers and prefer $2-$5k amps over $15k-$50k high damping factor solid state amplifiers. So in general it is better than I compare $3k SETs to $8k SETs (or tubes) just as it makes sense to heed the words of a die hard panel reviewer over a non panel fan.

Doug Schroeder has owned all sorts of panels over his life and so when he says a King Sound sounds better than a Magnepan, Apogee, Quad, Acoustat, etc (and he actually buys them) then it is more credible in a sense to panel lovers because he has owned and heard most of them and "likes" that sonic presentation. Now I am not typically a fan of them and I also liked the sound of the King Sound panels so in a way that can be viewed as positive or a negative. Why? Because if I didn't like the others all that much then perhaps could think I like the King Sound because they sound more box speaker like which could be a bad thing to the regular panel lovers. Or maybe I am over thinking it.

Nevertheless i don't like putting budgets to things or assuming certain things that something that is much more expensive will be better or more resolving or offering more of a window to the front end gear. While that is certainly true within a company line up it is not necessarily true across companies. A Teresonic does some things at $10k considerably better than many speakers at $50-$100k (they also do things not nearly as good) but resolution or the ability to discern differences in recordings is not a problem for most of the bandwidth.

This is not to say that spending more doesn't get you more but I would also say there are a lot more $15-$20k speakers that I would not remotely trade my $5k speakers in for than $15-20k speakers that I would trade my speakers in for. They are out there though so yes more money will get you better but it's still a design thing IMO not just a retail price issue. A vandersteen for example can sound very good. I heard their $45k beasties and I really liked them - but I would not trade straight up over mine. Big name, big fan base, more bass - just doesn't sound as good IMO. That said it sounds a lot better than all the lower Vandersteen models so a fan of that type of sound will appreciate the big improvements in the house sound as you go up the model line. So they're certainly "worth" the money in the sense that they raise the level for that sonic aesthetic but if you don't love that house sound then it doesn't matter how much they charge or even if it reaches the ultimate level of that house sound.

Just as the panel guy who starts with magnepan on the cheap. When he has money will likely continue with panels and go to Apogee or King Sound or Sound Labs or Quad as a huge upgrade because that is the sonic aesthetic he prefers no matter if there are $25k Legacy Whispers with much more bass and drive etc. Or the horn guys who will go up the line with better drivers, wiring, etc.

[Feanor]

Seems like a good idea to me. Why buy a better amp when the speakers can take care of that for you? It's like killing 2 birds with one stone. In fact, I think we have stumbled on a new path for audiophiles. Indeed, speakers first is nothing new, but our twist is that you must spend all but 1% of your budget on them. Then buy the rest of the system with your 1% and listen to that audio magic!!

This is hyperbole for sure. Certainly there are no fixed ratios for system components but 99% on your speakers is over the top. That would be like $10,000 and $100 for the rest -- that scenario doesn't exist.

[Feanor]

PoppaC, once again you are off your rockers....

Right now I'm considering whether to buy Hansen Prince or maybe some Magico's to go with my Emotiva XPA-2 and Benchmark DAC1... I'm certain there are tons of Emo users who pair $100K+ speakers with their sub $2K electronics...

Or more outrageously, instead of the XPA-2, my Class-D-Audio SDS-258.

Compare this ...



With this ...

[Geoffcin]

There really is a parabolic arc with gear quality and price. I would say that MOST of what is avaialable out there that rates mid-fi on the audiophile meter will get you 90%-95% there if set up correctly.

That being said, people WANT to know that the gear that they are paying dearly for sounds great to a reviewer too. But there' no way that a person who is going to spend $3k-$5k on a CD player is going to want to see it reviewed playing through the latest HT receiver! No, gear must be rated and reviewed in the class that it fits into.

Got cute $1k mini-monitors you want to review? Prospective buyers of said item aren't going to want a review with a 1000w reference class amp and a 18k CD player. It just doesn't help them. Also they are not going to want to hear a review using a $250 HT receiver either. Think about using a quality intergrated amp and sub 1K CD player and/or TT.

[pixelthis]

I think, in a way, I'm starting to see two classes of audiophiles.

One class seems to lean more towards an affection/attraction to the technology. A techno-phile within the audio world. This includes not just the physical electronics, but the technical ability of the sound produced.

The other is really looking for a system they can play their music on and love it. Someone who is more a Music-phile (is there a word for this) in the audio world.

I think the techno-phile will alway be interested in reading about equipment that is better than theirs because just the pure existence of that equipment gets them off. Where as the Music-phile reads reviews on equipment that they can afford, because they want to hear, with-in their own budget, the music they love so much, in a system that reproduces it, to achieve their own 'getting off'.

I guess I see the two camps as 'for the love of music' vs 'for the love of technology'.

HAVE to disagree, old chap. At least as far as guys are concerned(can't speak for the ladies). Guys tend to be tech heads and love new tech. I always have enjoyed reading
such "stereo porn" as Absolute sound".
I NEVER will be able to afford a pair of Utopia GRANDS, or the latest WILSON effort,
but it is such fun to read about such things, the way they are built and designed.
A man can dream, after all...

[YBArcam]

Forgive me if I am parroting anyone's views, but just quickly, synergy IMO is most important. Cost doesn't matter, only synergy through sound and design.

Nothing will make an 80K CDP sound worse than a entry level amp which can't keep up.

Having spent a ton of time at my local shop, mixing and matching, that's the one thing I have learned. People often think that putting a lesser unit into a high end chain will improve it. Wrong!! That high end chain will expose that weak link almost everytime. For the time's it doesn't, synergy is the saviour.

Personally, I don't want to read a review which is unfounded in reality. No experienced audiophile would carelessly "mix and match", so why should a reviewer? It works both ways, a guy with $150K of gear is not considering NAD cdps and the entry level guy is not thinking about a Zanden.

Adam, I think your idea about 2 systems for reviewing is a good one.

I was going to post something similar to this.

We all know about synergy. How much time does a reviewer typically spend on ensuring he has a synergistic system before he begins a review? From the reviews I've read, it often feels like the reviewer gets a pair of speakers and then just plops them into whatever system he has at the time. If the review is a bad one, we don't know if it's due to the speaker not being very good, or just a poor match to the rest of the gear/room. If the review is good then I guess that's another matter, but who knows what happens if I then buy the speaker and place it into my system/room. Perhaps a totally different result altogether. And with the number of positive reviews (most reviews are positive) I have to be a little bit suspicious, because that's a lot of luck trying out all those components and achieving synergy with them, with seemingly very little effort. Perhaps I am wrong though...maybe most gear will work fine with most other gear, assuming no obvious technical mismatches.

My experience so far in this hobby suggests that 90% of all the products out there today are very good to excellent, you just have to make sure the implementation into a room/system is right to unlock this potential.

[RGA]

I was going to post something similar to this.

We all know about synergy. How much time does a reviewer typically spend on ensuring he has a synergistic system before he begins a review? From the reviews I've read, it often feels like the reviewer gets a pair of speakers and then just plops them into whatever system he has at the time. If the review is a bad one, we don't know if it's due to the speaker not being very good, or just a poor match to the rest of the gear/room. If the review is good then I guess that's another matter, but who knows what happens if I then buy the speaker and place it into my system/room. Perhaps a totally different result altogether. And with the number of positive reviews (most reviews are positive) I have to be a little bit suspicious, because that's a lot of luck trying out all those components and achieving synergy with them, with seemingly very little effort. Perhaps I am wrong though...maybe most gear will work fine with most other gear, assuming no obvious technical mismatches.

My experience so far in this hobby suggests that 90% of all the products out there today are very good to excellent, you just have to make sure the implementation into a room/system is right to unlock this potential.

Well you will get no argument from me I have beating that drum for a long time. Plopping in gear and getting good but not great sound has reviewers giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt that in a different system it would be even better. So everything gets a good review.

What I want to review ideally is system reviews. That is easy with Linn and Audio Note who make systems so there is nowhere to run and hide and make excuses. But it can be done with other makers who don't make the whole chain as welll because there are known matches. Audio Research uses Wilson speakers (or vice versa) when making their gear so reviewing that match means you are reviewing what the manufacturer feels is the best available match.

Now on the other hand - if the amp maker doesn't tell you a preference for speakers or cd players then you can assume they feel it works with every speaker from single driver lowther to 20 driver line array. And if it sounds bad you can certainly not give them any benefit of the doubt. That goes for speaker makers that say 20 watts to 150 watts. Anything that meets that apparently is good enough.

But I think if you keep the general intent in mind - then a "good match" should be had. My amp is a 10 watt SE - I will review speakers that are intended for such tube amplifiers and not 83db 6 driver loudspeakers. If I do wish to review such a speaker then I will use my Rotel Preamp and would likely ask the speaker maker to provide a power amp they feel is up for the job (or a different preamp if they don't like the Rotel).

[Ajani]

Well you will get no argument from me I have beating that drum for a long time. Plopping in gear and getting good but not great sound has reviewers giving the manufacturer the benefit of the doubt that in a different system it would be even better. So everything gets a good review.

What I want to review ideally is system reviews. That is easy with Linn and Audio Note who make systems so there is nowhere to run and hide and make excuses. But it can be done with other makers who don't make the whole chain as welll because there are known matches. Audio Research uses Wilson speakers (or vice versa) when making their gear so reviewing that match means you are reviewing what the manufacturer feels is the best available match.

Now on the other hand - if the amp maker doesn't tell you a preference for speakers or cd players then you can assume they feel it works with every speaker from single driver lowther to 20 driver line array. And if it sounds bad you can certainly not give them any benefit of the doubt. That goes for speaker makers that say 20 watts to 150 watts. Anything that meets that apparently is good enough.

But I think if you keep the general intent in mind - then a "good match" should be had. My amp is a 10 watt SE - I will review speakers that are intended for such tube amplifiers and not 83db 6 driver loudspeakers. If I do wish to review such a speaker then I will use my Rotel Preamp and would likely ask the speaker maker to provide a power amp they feel is up for the job (or a different preamp if they don't like the Rotel).

I agree... Generally when I respond to questions from new (or even old) forum posters asking about what speakers to buy with what amp, my general advice is to go to a dealer and listen to complete setups, then buy the entire setup that you like...

I feel reviews done of whole systems are really useful as I know that apart from room acoustics, that is how the system is intended to sound...

To add to your list: Quad, Rega, Roksan and Emotiva also do full systems... You can probably count Rotel/B&W or Classe/B&W, NAD/PSB, Anthem/Paradigm & Revel/Mark Levinson on the list as they are owned by the same companies and designed to work well together...

[RGA]

Ajani

And to add a further wrinkle to that - even within the same company one amp may not be as suited to a given speaker as another. I know with AN that not only do they want AN gear throughout it has to be specific models working with other specific models or they feel you're throwing your money away. Granted they make hundreds of pieces of gear. It's a bit eaiser when the company makes three amps and 3 speakers and 2 turntables and 2 cd players to find the right match.

The trouble is with some of the brands you mentioned is that they're not necessarily as good at making certain parts of the chain. Linn is much better at sources than everything else. And then some are not really great at making anything IME so while it may match it doesn't much matter.

A great dealer usually has done a lot of this work - they match stuff up all the time to build such systems. And of course it is still possible to build a good system with a Linn speaker and no other Linn products.

[Ajani]

Ajani

And to add a further wrinkle to that - even within the same company one amp may not be as suited to a given speaker as another. I know with AN that not only do they want AN gear throughout it has to be specific models working with other specific models or they feel you're throwing your money away. Granted they make hundreds of pieces of gear. It's a bit eaiser when the company makes three amps and 3 speakers and 2 turntables and 2 cd players to find the right match.

The trouble is with some of the brands you mentioned is that they're not necessarily as good at making certain parts of the chain. Linn is much better at sources than everything else. And then some are not really great at making anything IME so while it may match it doesn't much matter.

A great dealer usually has done a lot of this work - they match stuff up all the time to build such systems. And of course it is still possible to build a good system with a Linn speaker and no other Linn products.

Yep, there is always the danger that some parts are the weak link in the chain.... But then hopefully you can find at least one dealer with a carefully crafted system that sounds good to you... Unless you have the time and money to spend constantly trading gear on Audiogon, then I think auditioning whole systems makes a lot of sense...

[poppachubby]

You guys are right.

NAD systems, IMO suck...but they do make a few individual pieces that are ok. Arcam and Creek on the other hand, are wicked awesome for full systems.

I have done alot of listening on my local dealer's Arcam demo system, it's the one which I will hook up a source when I want to listen. Back to the topic...they also have full Simaudio systems which I have listened to as well. I like the Arcam because let's face it, my own system is closer to it than a Moon. I will say that a full Simaudio system through Audio Physics is stupid good.

[Ajani]

You guys are right.

NAD systems, IMO suck...but they do make a few individual pieces that are ok. Arcam and Creek on the other hand, are wicked awesome for full systems.

I have done alot of listening on my local dealer's Arcam demo system, it's the one which I will hook up a source when I want to listen. Back to the topic...they also have full Simaudio systems which I have listened to as well. I like the Arcam because let's face it, my own system is closer to it than a Moon. I will say that a full Simaudio system through Audio Physics is stupid good.

LOL... My thoughts exactly... My first real HiFi system consisted of a NAD Int and CDP... Which I really hated... NAD/PSB are designed to be used together and many persons love the combo... My experiences with that combo always left me with just one word in mind: BORING... But for those who like the sound, it is a good option...