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Thread: 2011 California Audio Show

  1. #51
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Lord have mercy...we don't have enough interpreters around, and somebody is having a real spiritual moment here.
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  2. #52
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    my dogma just ran over their karma

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    gee whiz, Terry. You certainly have the ability to complicate something to the degree that no solution can be found with any confidence or efficiency. You drag in endless conflicting details..,.. Why don't you simply perform a full factorial design every time?

    This is NOT life or death, dude. For years I cut to the chase by seperating the chaff from the wheat.... and I have the patents to prove it. And yes, one can remember sounds for a very long time... but maybe you can't. So sorry.

  4. #54
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    The bottom line here is our systems are put together based on our own taste of music. Ralph likes small ensemble classical works, and his speaker are very good at reproducing it I am sure.
    Actually, you must be confusing me with Feanor. Classical comprises only about 10% of my listening mix and I prefer larger symphonic works (Copland, Saint Saens, Holst, Strauss, etc.) including movie soundtracks. Saw the latest Harry Potter flick last night and plan to get that music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    I like a very wide variety of music, everything from classical, jazz, and gospel, to hard rock and rhythm and blues.
    Ditto,except for gospel. My most recent CDs were a couple of Rihanna's. The texture of the bass synth on Hard is very nice - something you never hear live or at discos. What I value most is transparency regardless of what genre I'm listening to and at lower levels (85-95 db). I've found that better systems fool my sense of "liveness" without having to play at ear bleeding levels. If you want to go dancing, however, then you really want more because the focus is not listening. Business recently took me to Orlando where the company took us to The Blue Martini after dinner for some fun. There were about twenty of us in a VIP section and had a great time. Consumption of adult beverages is usually in the mix in these situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Live music is one reference point, but our own personal taste in music cannot be dismissed.
    True. Which is why most folks are content with low quality sound reinforcement sound. It is very easy to replicate the resolution of the gear used at "live" amplified events for those venues.

    rw

  5. #55
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMichael View Post
    I think recorded music is like photography. A reminder of the original event. I attend and enjoy classical concerts. Then I go home and listen to that same music in my smaller listening space. I enjoy looking at my pictures of Paris but they are not like walking the streets of Paris. They are a very nice reminder.
    You raise an interesting point, JM. When I think about, I realize that at least 98% of the music I listen to, I have never heard in live performance.

  6. #56
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mash View Post
    gee whiz, Terry. You certainly have the ability to complicate something to the degree that no solution can be found with any confidence or efficiency. You drag in endless conflicting details..,.. Why don't you simply perform a full factorial design every time?
    So we understand each other completely, my name is not Terry...are we clear?

    Moving on, this is a complicated and complex issue. Now for those folks who like to gloss over detail, you are welcome to simplify it so you can get your head around it. But one must understand they do not have the complete picture when they do that.

    This is NOT life or death, dude. For years I cut to the chase by seperating the chaff from the wheat.... and I have the patents to prove it. And yes, one can remember sounds for a very long time... but maybe you can't. So sorry.
    So even when given a link that disproves the notion of a 20 year echoic memory, you still want to maintain that claim? You are killing me with your second hand smoke. Nobody can aurally or visually remember anything they saw or heard 20 years ago....IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Making claims like this in the face of facts does not lend much credibility does it?

    Since you can cut to the chase by separating the wheat from the chaff, apply it here as well.

    Echoic memory is one of the sensory memory registers; a component of short term memory (STM) that is specific to retaining auditory information. This particular sensory store is capable of storing large amounts of auditory information that is only retained for a short period of time (3-4 seconds). This echoic sound resonates in the mind and is replayed for this brief amount of time shortly after the presentation of auditory stimuli.

    modern neuropsychological techniques have enabled the development of estimations of the capacity, duration, and location of the echoic memory store. Using Sperling's model as an analogue, researchers continue to apply his work to the auditory sensory store using partial and whole report experiments. They found that the echoic store has a duration of up to 4 seconds,[2] and in the absence of interference has been shown to last up to 20 seconds

    Now if 20 seconds is now 20 years, then I will live to be over a thousand years old!
    Sir Terrence

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Right on! Live music can should harsh, (or strident), depending on the music, the performance, the instruments, the venue, and you seat in the venue. For everything to always sound sweet and smooth is not realism.

    Beyond that there is the matter of the recording. Personally if the recording is not well made and sounds harsh on that account, I still what to hear the recording the way it was made. Why? Because if you try to make a poor recording sound good, you'll make a good recording sound bad.
    Yes, I agree that often live music produces clear and penetrating sounds, i.e., a trumpet. The Audio Note Es failure to EVER produce a penetrating trumpet sound (compared to speakers with ribbon or electrostatic treble units) is one reason I prefer other speakers. My objection to the the sound in the MBL room was that ALL treble sounded "clear" and penetrating, even when a more burnished tone was called for. A very fatiguing sound. Yes, IMO. Of course, I also hate 1,000 watt ss amps and digital sources. Perhaps tubes and analogue could help the MBLs sound mellow when the recording calls for mellow sound. I suspect that very few tube amps have enough power for the MBLs.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible View Post
    Tube Fan, I have told you this before. Your criteria for evaluating good sound(comparison to live sound) is too narrow. When I am purchasing equipment for my enjoyment, the equipment has to have sonic qualities that appeal to me, not to somebody else's perspective of what good sound is. If I listen to a lot of jazz, then I want speakers that sound good with jazz music, not something that sounds good with classical music. Music enjoyment(and good sound) is in the ear of the beholder, not some subjective standard somebody else has thought up. Enjoying music is all about personal preference.

    Good example. I think both of us like good sounding equipment, but you like tubes, and I like solid state. You like cones and domes, and I like well designed horn's. You like analog, and I like digital. You like euphoria, and I like accuracy. You like two channel, I like multichannel. With these differences, we both still like a good sounding system. Our desires are the same, but our way of achieving it is quite different. This is how personal preference guides our choices of good sound.

    You cannot "suck the air out of the room" by promoting your way as the only way to achieve good sound. There is more than one way to get around Oakland than the 580 freeway.

    This hobby is all about personal preference, and there is room at the "good sound" table for everyone's preferences.
    I, of course, prefer true accuracy which includes tonal density and three dimensional sound (not the same as depth). I LOVE horns! Just love the best ones. I also have heard great high res digital sound (objection: very little software to date). I also have always VASTLY preferred multichannel sound. Here both the hardware and software is limited.

  9. #59
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    I, of course, prefer true accuracy which includes tonal density and three dimensional sound (not the same as depth). I LOVE horns! Just love the best ones. I also have heard great high res digital sound (objection: very little software to date). I also have always VASTLY preferred multichannel sound. Here both the hardware and software is limited.
    I have over 300 high resolution multichannel and stereo recordings that I have collected since Bluray came out, and they sound great on the Oppo BDP-95

    You can also go to HD tracks for high resolution music downloads.

    SACD and DVD-A titles are still out there.

    There are quality universal players there, so there is no shortage of high resolution multichannel music out there, and players to play them on. You just have to look, that is all.
    Sir Terrence

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  10. #60
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    My objection to the the sound in the MBL room was that ALL treble sounded "clear" and penetrating, even when a more burnished tone was called for. A very fatiguing sound.
    Now that makes sense to me... Anything that either smooths everything out or makes everything sound too clear/harsh can not be accurate... An accurate system should be able to change from smooth to ear bleeding, depending on the quality of the music and the recording...

  11. #61
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    Since you asked:

    (1) I hated the sound in the MBL room: mate a 1,000 watt ss amp to a digital source, to a bright speaker, and you got sound that caused me to flee the room as fast as I could! "Audiophiles" who never attend live acoustic musical events, may well LOVE this kind of bright, etched sound. Lot's of sizzle, but no tonal beauty whatsoever.

    (2) The Audio Note speakers were limited, because they only had a digital source, though the best one I have ever heard. The sound was OK, but not great.

    (3) The Magico Q3s sounded horrible on digital: flat, two-dimensional, with little dynamics or tonal beauty. When playing vinyl, the Q3s came to life: detailed, dynamic, with great timbre and density. On my Coltrane/Hartman vinyl, the system captured both Hartman's deep, smoky vocals and the liquid beauty of Coltrane's sax (an extremely sexy combination), On my Ray Charles/Betty Carter record, you could feel the heat between these two greats singing "baby it's cold outside". People even applauded at the end of the song! A cut from Sinatra's "Only the Lonely" brought me to tears! Later, I was in the men's room when the Magico representative came in. I asked him how he was holding up (this on the second day), and he replied, "great". He then volunteered that people stayed in the room longer when he was playing vinyl. DUH! An expensive, but great system, with the latest Audio Research tube equipment, including the D250 amp with the new KT 120 tubes.

    (4) I didn't like the sound of the big, expensive Wilson speakers in a huge room. The sound was stunningly flat, lifeless, even on the the fantastic Eric Dolphy "out to Lunch" record. Much better was the sound in the smaller Wilson room, this with the Sophia III speaker. Here Chet Baker's trumpet was appropriately dynamic, but, still lyrical; Pepper Adams' baritone sax was full and dynamic; and yes, Ray and Betty sounded sexy.

    (5) The High Violoncello II speakers (at a cool $80,000), sounded stupendous on most of my records. On the Chet record, Pepper Adam's baritone sax was as rich and explosive as I have ever heard it. The "Yulunga" track from Dead Can Dance's "Into the Labyrinth" was plain scary! Not quite as good on vocals.

    (6) Not as dynamic, but also exciting in other ways, was Audio Vision's room with the Nola speakers. Ray and Betty sounded as hot as they did via the Magico Q3. Stan Getz sounded like he was trying to seduce Astred Gilberto on "The Girl From Ipanema" (successively, my wife tells me). the system was lively, clear, dynamic, but never harsh. And this was using inexpensive Naim aa equipment. Via tubes, I might have well fallen in love with these speakers.

    (7) One of my favorite rooms was the one with the Usher Mini II speakers ($5,700!), VPI Scout tt, and Wells phono and amp. Here they played the stupendous Hugh Masekela "Coal Train" track at full, live SPLs! The SPL HAD to be WAY over 105 dB! With NO distortion! Chet Baker and Pepper Adams were almost as dynamic as they were via the $80,000 Acapella speakers. Oliver Nelson's classic "Stolen Moments" with Eric Dolphy on alto and flute, Freddie Hubbard on trumpet, George Barrow on baritone, and Bill Evans on piano was just gorgeous. Each great has an extended solo, but it all comes together in a meltingly beautiful finish. I loved that the room's representative (Wells?) played many non-audiophile vinyl, including Hendrik and the Doors. Let her rip!!! Not only do these Usher speakers sound accurate and dynamic, but they also look beautiful.

    (8) Another room I loved was the one with a $15,000 Vivid speaker and Luxman integrated amp with phono (only $6,000!). This little speaker looked like something from outer space (good IMO). Everything, from Ray and Betty to Coltrane and Hartman to Grant Green sounded soulful, organic and palpable. The music just appeared in the room. Perhaps not for rockers, but one of the best on classical and jazz (90 % of my listening).

    (9) Last, but certainly not least, was the totally unexpected sound in the deHavilland room with the 97 dB Sonist speaker ($5,895!), a Glow 5 wpc amp with volume control ($648 !!!) the Kara Chaffee Model 222 tube magnetic playback preamp, and an Ampex 351 tape deck. And, yes, with some unbelievably realistic reel-to-reel tapes, most just bought on ebay. Sinatra and Ellington ("Francis A and Edward K") brought me to tears! The sound on each and every tape was detailed, harmonically rich, with swelling, organic dynamics. Yes, I love my vinyl, and prefer it to digital, but Kara's tapes put my vinyl to shame. IMO, we are going backward in quality: from reel-to-reel, to vinyl, to digital. BTW, Mario of Audio Note, told me to listen to the Kara system. Mario later told me that he got Kara to play his tapes via the Audio Note speakers at one audio show. I'd pay to hear that!
    Hey tube fan....I was more interested in the music you where playing rather than the gear....sounds like you had your own?
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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  12. #62
    frenchmon frenchmon's Avatar
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    Hey Adam...you guys take any pictures??? If so post some please.
    Music...let it into your soul and be moved....with Canton...Pure Music


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    W10 i5 Quad core processor 8GB RAM/Jriver 20/ Fidelizer Optimizer/ iFI Micro DSD DAC-iUSB 3.0/Vincent SA - T1/Vincent SP-331 MK /MMF-7.1/2M BLACK/MS Phenomena ll+/Canton Vento 830.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchmon View Post
    Hey tube fan....I was more interested in the music you where playing rather than the gear....sounds like you had your own?
    As for pictures, Stephen Mejias has posted some wonderful ones of the show at Stereophile's web site. Unfortunately, most of his comments are solely positive; I don't get the feeling that we are getting his honest feelings, especially negative ones.

    Here are the records I took to evaluate the systems:

    (1) "John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman". All the cuts are great, but my favorites are "They Say It's Wonderful" and "My One and Only Love". Coltrane is at his lyrical best, and his mellow, liquid sound is a perfect match for Hartman's smoky, soulful singing.

    (2) "Chet". "Analogue Productions" version. Again, all the tracks are fantastic, but the first, "Alone Together" is a true test of a system's micro and macro dynamics. Pepper Adams moves across the stage on one solo, and his playing goes from a wisper to fullout power on this track. The Acapella horns and the Usher both captured the dynamics of Pepper and the penetrating beauty of Chet Baker's trumpet. Both speaker systems have great tweeters and this track will reveal any shortcomings in the high frequencies. BTW, on the first day, the Acapella speakers were reversed; Chet was playing from the right instead of the left speaker. No big deal. When I returned on the second day, the Acapella representative was very dissapointed when he learned that I failed to bring the "Chet" record (yes, the sound via his $80,000 speakers put the whole group right there in the room!). The rest of the musicians on "Chet": Herbie Mann on flute, Bill Evans on piano, Kenny Burrell on guitar, Paul Chambers on bass, Connie Kay or Philly Joe Jones on drums. Not too shabby!

    (3) "The Blues and the Abstract Truth". Another fantastic group: Oliver Nelson, alto and tenor sax; Eric Dolphy, alto sax and flute; Freddie Hubbard, trumpet, George Barrow, baritone sax; Bill Evans, piano; Paul chambers bass; and Roy Haynes drums.
    The Acapella representative had to "settle" for this record, instead of "Chet". Of course, here the first cut, "Stolen Moments" is THE cut. Lots of these greats give a solo, and then come together in the meltingly beautiful finish.

    (4) "Getz/Gilberto". The classic summer hit of decades ago is still fresh today. My favorite track here is "O Grande Amor" for Getz's solo, liquid and lyrical, both with swelling dynamics and beauty. Only the Acapella and Usher systems fully captured the dynamics of Getz's solo.

    (5) "hope" The stupenous Hugh Masekela's record (again, the "Analogue Productions" 45 version). The side 4 cut: "Stimela (The Coal Train)" has everything from Masekela's emotional singing and trumpet to simply unlimited dynamics. Played at live levels, the sound is scary and shocking! That is if the system can reprocuce such dynamic swings. Only the Usher came close to the Acapella in unlimited dynamics.

    (6) "Songs For Distingue Lovers". Billy Holiday, backed by an all star cast. About half of the systems I played this on captured Billy's emotional voice.

    (7) "folk singer", with two of the great blues players, Muddy Waters on vocals and guitar and Buddy Guy on guitar. The first cut, "My Home Is on the Delta" has some impressive Chicago style blues singing as well as great interplay between Muddy and Buddy. Plus some deep notes on guitar by Muddy to test a system's slam (or lack of).

    (8) "Ray Charles and Betty Carter". On the "Baby, It's Cold Outside" you can feel the sexual tension between these two (on a great system). On this record, I felt that the Vivid system did the best job. The room was using a Luxman integrated tube amp, and the sound had impressive timbre.

    (9) "Into the Labyrinth" Dead Can Dance. The first cut," Yulunga", has some dynamics that come close to those on "The Coal Train". The music is unusual, but I love it. The whole first side is a test for any audio system.

  14. #64
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Nope - no photos for me - no camera.

    Dagogo.com should have a bunch of photos if you want to swing over there and check it out.

    -adam

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    Jonathan Valid had almost the exact same response to the Magico Q3s that I had: "When Yair Tammam, co-designer of Magico speakers, asked me what difference I thought the 'table made in the Q3s presentation, which I 'd found a touch too warm at CES, I said: 'outside of the 100% improvement in neutrality and realism, not much.' To which he replied: You're 100% right." At the 2011 CAS, via digital (high-res), the Magico Q3s sounded just average to me. Using the tube AR phono, the sound came alive with correct timbre and dynamics.

  16. #66
    Suspended atomicAdam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tube fan View Post
    Jonathan Valid had almost the exact same response to the Magico Q3s that I had: "When Yair Tammam, co-designer of Magico speakers, asked me what difference I thought the 'table made in the Q3s presentation, which I 'd found a touch too warm at CES, I said: 'outside of the 100% improvement in neutrality and realism, not much.' To which he replied: You're 100% right." At the 2011 CAS, via digital (high-res), the Magico Q3s sounded just average to me. Using the tube AR phono, the sound came alive with correct timbre and dynamics.
    I agree - when I heard the Q3 from the Berkeley digital music server I was unimpressed - from the TT was a whole other story.

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