The "Thrilla in Manilla"

[Worf101]

Interesting, if flawed, documentary about the 3rd and final, Ali-Frazier fight that took place in Manilla, Philipines on October 1, 1975. This British documentary shown on HBO does not do the typical Ali hero worship but instead focuses on the Smokin' Joe Frazier and the terrible price he paid mentally and phyically in this bout. Through extensive interviews with all the particulars still living EXCEPT Ali we're given a different viewof both boxer's and their legacies.


SPOILER ALERT!!!











SPOILER ALERT!!!













SPOILER ALERT!!!

I'm a boxing historian and I learned some things I didn't know.

1. Frazier was blind in his left eye from a previous sparring incident soe when Ali closed his right eye in the fight, he was blind and defensless for almost 3 rounds. But he would not quit.

2. Frazier supported Ali, monetarily and spiritually during his exile, Ali repaid him with jeers and slander before this fight.

3. The taunting Ali did before this fight was beyond the pale and tarnishes his image to no end.

4. Ali has apologized several times but Frazier refuses to acknowledge it.

5. Fraizer revels in Ali's current physical deterioration and is haunted by his loss to this day.

6. Fraizer had NEVER seen a tape of the fight before viewing it for this documentary.

7. Frazier wanted to go on, Ali wanted to quit but Fraizer's corner feared for his life and ended the fight. I think this was the bravest act by a corner I've ever seen.

Good documentary marred by silly, stupid questions from the interviewer. Ferdie Pacheco asks him several times "are you really this stupid? You might as well end this documentary if you're going ask dumb ass questions like that."

Catch it if you can.

Da Worfster

[Mr Peabody]

I caught this and I agree it is very worth while. If Frazier's corner would have waited a minute or so he may have won because they were cutting off Ali's gloves. Ali actually collapsed after the decision. I feel for Frazier who still has this much hate in his heart. Ali apologized to Frazier's son face to face after the fight but Frazier's beef is Ali never directly apologized to Frazier himself, according to Frazier.

I sure didn't realize Ali was that out of control with his taunting.

I would also like to interject that in those days and up into the 80's boxing was big. It came on Saturday sports for FREE, it came on prime time TV for FREE. The greed and Pay-Per-View I feel killed boxing. Very few people I know still have any interest in boxing. Back in the day we were all around the TV checking it out. HBO & Showtime do what they can I guess and PPV may not be the only factor but it's undisputable that boxing sure isn't what it was then.

[GMichael]

It was one heck of a fight. I was very much into boxing at that time. I'll look for this documentary. Frazier was the better fighter IMO no matter how history seems to remember them. I had a lot of trouble with the disrespect Ali showed Joe. Can't really blame Joe for holding a grudge, but it's not good for him either.

On a side note, I met my wife in Manilla. We like to call that The "Thrilla in Manilla II"

[Mr Peabody]

I also thought it was interesting how Foreman beat Frazier by knock out and Ali turned around and knocked out Foreman but Frazier and Ali couldn't fight to a decision that fully satisfied them. Although, I think Ali knew after the Thrilla he didn't want any more of Frazier.

[Troy]

I watched this last night.

I'm not a big boxing fan, but found it engrossing and entertaining. 125º in the ring? Yeesh.

It's interesting how Ali wasn't involved in this. Only in a British Doc, I suppose . . . An American doc would have most likely sided with Ali all the way, because Ali is considered an American folk hero who can do no wrong and this piece certainly tarnished that image. This Brit angle showed him to be an arrogant buffoon, something I've kinda always felt about Ali myself, but never really articulated, or thought about much, before.

Excellent film, highly recommended, especially for boxing fans.

[Mr Peabody]

Good point, I would probably be half dead sitting still in 125 degrees, I can not do humidity. These guys had to be in top physical condition. I remember doing some high school wrestling and how winded I'd be just after 3 three minute rounds.

[RoadRunner6]

[QUOTE=Mr Peabody]I would also like to interject that in those days and up into the 80's boxing was big. It came on Saturday sports for FREE, it came on prime time TV for FREE. The greed and Pay-Per-View I feel killed boxing. Very few people I know still have any interest in boxing./QUOTE]

Amen, Mr. Peabody.

[3-LockBox]

I used to be a huge fan of boxing, until it gave itself a frontal lobotomy.

The real shame is that in the city of Philadelphia, there's a statue of a fictional character, Rocky Balboa, who is supposed to embody the American spirit, who is supposed to represent the regular, hard working blue collar people of Philly. Such a gawdy display of poor form and ignorance by a city that claims Brotherly Love, but then they scorn a real champion in the person of one Joe Frazier, a man who gave nothing but his best effort to a sport that nearly crippled him, representing a city that barely acknowledges him. A man who embodies everything that retarded statue of Rocky is supposed to, but doesn't. What does a no-nonsense city like Philly find so endearing about a ficticious character like Rocky (played by a hack of an actor), when they got the real deal in Frazier - and it seems they could care less. If they do care, they gotta funny assed way of showing it.

Tear down that stupid statue of Rocky - it may as well be Darth Vader or Mickey Mouse - and put up a statue that glorifies a real, honest to goodness boxing champion and legend, Smokin Joe Frazier.

[3-LockBox]

Another good doc about boxing from this same time period is When We Were Kings. Even though it is biased in favor of Ali (nearly the entire doc is from his perspective) it does chronicle what was boxing's shining moment, a point in time when the heavy weight ranks had four boxers (Ali, Frazier, Foremen and to a lesser extent Norton) who woulda dominated the division if they didn't have to fight each other. Any one of these guys would have ruled boxing in any other era but the '70s. They don't make 'em like that any more.

This movie also chronicles Ali's propensity to belittle his opponents. There are scenes showing Foreman's dismay at how Ali seemed to be able to vilify anyone and boxing fans bought into it so whole heartedly.

I too saw that doc regarding the last Ali/Frazier fight and it is a shame Ali took advantage of Frazier good nature and stabbed him in the back. I think all of the boxers from this era have a grudge against the media as well, since Ali always seemed to have an audience for his diatribes. and the US media enabled him all the way.

[3-LockBox]

I would also like to interject that in those days and up into the 80's boxing was big. It came on Saturday sports for FREE, it came on prime time TV for FREE. The greed and Pay-Per-View I feel killed boxing. Very few people I know still have any interest in boxing. Back in the day we were all around the TV checking it out. HBO & Showtime do what they can I guess and PPV may not be the only factor but it's undisputable that boxing sure isn't what it was then.

Boxing's greed and sanctioning bodies' splintering has every thing to do with boxing's diminished stature. Boxing was very much a part of the American consciousness before PPV. Guys like Ali, Frazier, and Foreman were household names and guests on TV variety shows back in the '70s. I was a kid and I knew boxers, as did most kids. I could name the champions and contenders in several weight classes.

Look at MMA - they're on two or three times a week, whether its UFC or WEC, and teenaged kids today know who most of these guys are. Many of the fans will gladly do PPV for the big events, because they're treated to the sport almost any time they want. I hope MMA has learned from boxing, and will keep MMA a people's sport. Most boxing champions couldn't be picked out of a line-up if they posed with their shorts, gloves and gold belts on.

[Worf101]

Wow, three absolutely great posts. Loved em, tried to give you some green chicklet love but this dang system says I have to "spread the love around". Pheh... that sucks. I agree with you so much. I'm not sure the "Rocky" statue is still there. I think they may have come to their sense and taken it down. I certainly hope they have. We, you and I, were blessed to witness the Heavy's in their "Silver Age", Ali, Foreman and Frazier and the Middles in their "Silver Age" as well, Hagler, Hearns, Duran and (ugh) Leonard. The don't make em like that any more...

Da Worfster

[GMichael]

Wow, three absolutely great posts. Loved em, tried to give you some green chicklet love but this dang system says I have to "spread the love around". Pheh... that sucks. I agree with you so much. I'm not sure the "Rocky" statue is still there. I think they may have come to their sense and taken it down. I certainly hope they have. We, you and I, were blessed to witness the Heavy's in their "Silver Age", Ali, Foreman and Frazier and the Middles in their "Silver Age" as well, Hagler, Hearns, Duran and (ugh) Leonard. The don't make em like that any more...

Da Worfster

Took care of that for ya. Got'cher back bud.

I must say, I didn't know that anyone else felt the same about Ali & Frazier as myself. It seemed that everyone loved the loudmouth and ignored the man with honor. Always felt sad for Frazier that he didn't get the same respect. It seemed like the verbal battle between Ali and Cosell was in the foreground more so that the fight itself.
I remember seeing Frazier and Ali on the kid's show, Wonderama, back in the 70's. Frazier spent his time bonding with the kids while Ali just mugged for the camera.

[GMichael]

I also thought it was interesting how Foreman beat Frazier by knock out and Ali turned around and knocked out Foreman but Frazier and Ali couldn't fight to a decision that fully satisfied them. Although, I think Ali knew after the Thrilla he didn't want any more of Frazier.

Foreman was younger and bigger than Frazier. But Frazier stood toe to toe and slugged it out. That was what fighting was all about. Ali rested against the ropes and let Foreman tire himself out. Was't anything resembling a fight. The ref should have DQ'd Ali after the 2nd round. Rope-A-dope my @ss!

[Mr Peabody]

It would be interesting to really know what happened to Hagler. When he lost no one heard from him again. I sometimes wonder if he threw that fight and made so much money he just called it a day or maybe part of me just hated to see him ever lose. But with him or Hearns we have to realize as they do themselves that they are only human and can have a bad day at work too.

[3-LockBox]

Well, I should correct myself - it wasn't necessarily PPV that killed the heavyweight ranks; that happened when Foreman retired to become a minister, and Frazier retired because and became a lounge act of all things. Norton hung in there, but I think he got ripped off his last fight with Ali. The one thing about Ali that people seem to gloss over on TV, is the fact that before his first fight with Leon Spinks, he had been gifted two or three fights -a fight against an up and comer (I think it was Jimmy something, maybe Ellis?) and his bouts with Ken Norton were notable because Norton gave Ali fits.

Norton's unorthadox stance and style didn't play into Ali's lethal jab/overhand right combo. If I remember correctly all of their fights were splits decisions, with many believing that Norton got a raw deal, especially the last fight. There was a story that an Ali-Norton 4 was pitched after Ali retained his belt from Spinks, but Ali said 'No'.

Ernie Shavers was another boxer that prolly was robbed on a close decision. By this time Ali could do no wrong. No wonder he went into that first Spinks fight thinking he would be handed another decision.

Larry Holmes was prolly better than people give him credit for in the light of a diminished heavyweight division, beating some decent competition early on, but larry holmes last two or three successful title defenses were against bums, like manufactured talent Jerry Clooney and brawler Randal Tex Cobb.

But if the demise of the heavyweight ranks was good for anything, it was to aloow other divisions to rise to prominance, putting the spotlight on some great middleweight(ish) fighter like the ones Worf mentioned. I say 'ish' because they all seemed to float in and out of different weight classes, since the different governing bodies had different names for their own weight divisions.

[topspeed]

Caught this a week ago and both my wife and I loved it. The most disconcerting thing for me wasn't Ali's constant berating of Frazier (he wasn't known as the Louiville Lip for nothing), but of Frazier's inability to let it go. While the documentary paints a very unflattering picture of Ali, and rightfully so, the sheer glee in which Frazier delights in his percieved contribution to Ali's deteriorating health is downright disturbing. I know these guys disliked each other, but after awhile you've simply got to let go.

Excellent point about the temperature at the time of the bout. To endure that kind of beating, in that kind of heat, is a testatment to the heart and will of both fighters. That alone indicates how much each fighter thought of the other. I, for one, applaud Frazier's corner for stopping the fight. While bittersweet because Ali had ordered his corner to do the exact same thing, Futch stated he had seen 6 guys die in the ring and never regretted his decision to his last day. Would Frazier (or Ali) have died? I'm grateful we didn't find out.

[Kam]

I used to be a huge fan of boxing, until it gave itself a frontal lobotomy.

The real shame is that in the city of Philadelphia, there's a statue of a fictional character, Rocky Balboa, who is supposed to embody the American spirit, who is supposed to represent the regular, hard working blue collar people of Philly. Such a gawdy display of poor form and ignorance by a city that claims Brotherly Love, but then they scorn a real champion in the person of one Joe Frazier, a man who gave nothing but his best effort to a sport that nearly crippled him, representing a city that barely acknowledges him. A man who embodies everything that retarded statue of Rocky is supposed to, but doesn't. What does a no-nonsense city like Philly find so endearing about a ficticious character like Rocky (played by a hack of an actor), when they got the real deal in Frazier - and it seems they could care less. If they do care, they gotta funny assed way of showing it.

Tear down that stupid statue of Rocky - it may as well be Darth Vader or Mickey Mouse - and put up a statue that glorifies a real, honest to goodness boxing champion and legend, Smokin Joe Frazier.

have you heard Bill Burr's rant on Philly? He was part of this radio show (opie and anthony's) travelling comedy tour, and came on to perform a 10 minute set at philly and they started boo-ing him as he walked on the stage for no reason, so he unleashed on the entire crowd, ripping on philly for 10 straight minutes. he said very similar things about the rocky statue.

[Worf101]

It would be interesting to really know what happened to Hagler. When he lost no one heard from him again. I sometimes wonder if he threw that fight and made so much money he just called it a day or maybe part of me just hated to see him ever lose. But with him or Hearns we have to realize as they do themselves that they are only human and can have a bad day at work too.

Wow, I went to his Boxing Hall of Fame induction, followed him for years. Screamed in horror as British Boxing fans rained quart bottles of beer on him after is destruction of Alan Minter. Marvelous Marvin Hagler would never, could never ever take a dive. That's why it took him so long to get a title shot. He wouldn't and never did sell himself to Arum or King. No, they offered Hagler 10 to 15 million to fight Leonard again. He said "no" cause he knew the outcome (a decision for the pretty boy) would be exactly the same. He moved to Italy, made grade "c" action flicks and never looked back. Comes to the States twice a year.

Da Worfster

[Worf101]

Took care of that for ya. Got'cher back bud.

I must say, I didn't know that anyone else felt the same about Ali & Frazier as myself. It seemed that everyone loved the loudmouth and ignored the man with honor. Always felt sad for Frazier that he didn't get the same respect. It seemed like the verbal battle between Ali and Cosell was in the foreground more so that the fight itself.
I remember seeing Frazier and Ali on the kid's show, Wonderama, back in the 70's. Frazier spent his time bonding with the kids while Ali just mugged for the camera.

You Bum!!! I've just spent the better half of the morning remembering "Wonderama" with fondness and joy. "Wonderama", "Just for Fun", "Soupy Sales" god, I'm showin' muh age.

Da "suddenly feeling very old" Worfster

[GMichael]

You Bum!!! I've just spent the better half of the morning remembering "Wonderama" with fondness and joy. "Wonderama", "Just for Fun", "Soupy Sales" god, I'm showin' muh age.

Da "suddenly feeling very old" Worfster

At least I didn't bring up ABBA.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd like to go back and watch that Hagler/Leonard fight again to refresh my memory. I would have thought Hagler had the power to knock Leonard out, so maybe Leonard gets credit for being able to dodge and take a punch.

[Woochifer]

Hey Worf -

Very good documentary, just another one to add to the HBO canon, which seems to be the only place that still values great sports journalism. It's gems like this that make me reluctant to cancel HBO (we resubscribed for a couple of months, so that we could watch Big Love).

I also never heard that Frazier was nearly blind in one eye. I've seen this fight on ESPN Classic a couple of times. It was an epic fight and encapsulates so much that's great with boxing (but falls short most of the time) -- contrasting styles, two great warriors, drama inside and outside the ring. I agree that Frazier's corner calling the fight was a great act of courage. If that fight had gone the distance, one or both fighters probably would have exited the ring in a body bag.

[Woochifer]

II would also like to interject that in those days and up into the 80's boxing was big. It came on Saturday sports for FREE, it came on prime time TV for FREE. The greed and Pay-Per-View I feel killed boxing. Very few people I know still have any interest in boxing. Back in the day we were all around the TV checking it out. HBO & Showtime do what they can I guess and PPV may not be the only factor but it's undisputable that boxing sure isn't what it was then.

Problem is that the broadcast networks can never sell enough ad time to pay the multimillion dollar purses that go along with the title fights nowadays, especially if it doesn't go the distance. I remember that Fox signed Mike Tyson to a few fights for broadcast TV, but those fights were typically short with Tyson getting an early round knockout.

Also, champion boxers are not going to fight 4 or 5 times a year like they often did during the 70s. You won't see the equivalent of Ali v. Chuck Wepner popping up on broadcast TV, since championship fights are now between top contenders and only happen after long drawn out negotiations.

It's feasible for HBO and Showtime, because they control the PPV gate and the rebroadcast rights, and they don't have to worry about ad sales. Their coverage is great, and they've done a decent job at promoting new face, especially in the lower weight classes. I agree though that confining boxing to premium cable networks is no way to grow the sport's audience.

It would be interesting to really know what happened to Hagler. When he lost no one heard from him again. I sometimes wonder if he threw that fight and made so much money he just called it a day or maybe part of me just hated to see him ever lose. But with him or Hearns we have to realize as they do themselves that they are only human and can have a bad day at work too.

As Worf mentioned, Hagler would have NEVER thrown that fight. While he wasn't especially sharp against Leonard, I thought Hagler easily won that fight and the fix was in. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that Leonard was given the fight on the presumption that a Hagler loss would lead to an even more lucrative rematch. But, Hagler was rightfully disgusted by the whole process and left the business with potential millions still on the table.

Yet, in the end I think Hagler came out on top, and did not fall prey to the typical boxer's downfall -- fighting one fight too many. We have no image of Hagler bumbling around the ring while getting mercilessly pummeled by a younger opponent (e.g., Leonard losing to Norris and Camacho to end his career, or Ali still getting hammered by Larry Holmes despite Holmes admittedly pulling his punches in that fight).

Hagler's living happily in Italy. In interviews I've read, he comes across as someone who's content, still has his health, never squandered his winnings, and still has the reputation for having retired on top because so many boxing fans feel that he was robbed in his final fight.

[3-LockBox]

I do feel Hagler got ripped off, but was also surprised he let Leonard off the hook. Hagler should have known that Leonard would win a close fight if it came down to a decision, and that he'd need to at least hurt Loenard or even knock him out. Maybe Hagler had a little too much respect for Leonard, and he didn't want to hurt him. Who knows. The media, the fans, and obviously the judges were so enamoured with Leonard and he knew it. Everyone mistook his handspeed and ring antics as being effective, when most of what he was doing was avoiding Hagler, and when he was connecting, he wasn't phasing Hagler. Every time Hagler landed a shot, Leonard was on his bicycle. Sugar Ray did indeed put on a boxing clinic, on how not to get hit and look cool doing it. Hagler, oddly enough, decided not to press and left it up to the judges. In the end, Hagler looked flustered, and Leonard didn't.

I agree, Hagler couldn't live with himself if he had thrown a fight. I'm sure the ebulant responce by the crowd and the media after the fight put a bad taste in Hagler's mouth whereas boxing was concerned.

I remember seeing Hagler fighting Vito Antifermo(sp?) for the Middleweight title, a guy who wouldn't go down but was a terrible bleeder, and Hagler lost that one in a close decision - seems he could never get any love from the judges. But man oh man, Hagler was a beast after he beat Minter. I saw that fight against Thomas 'Hitman" Hearns. Hagler could take a shot and prolly was the hardest hitting Middleweight anyone had ever seen up to that point. I don't know of too many modern middleweights that coulda taken Hagler in his prime.

[Worf101]

I'm so glad that SOME folks actually know what happened in Hagler/ Leonard. I remember hearing women talking about how glad they were Leonard beat that "ugly beast". As a fellow beast I took offense that what should be the simplest of sports could be reduced to the level of American Idol. I guess I kinda walked away from boxing with him.

Da Worfster