Some thoughts on the Star Wars DVD's

[kexodusc]

Picked it up on Sunday. A lady friend of mine who works at a store was nice enough to loan it to me on the condition I pay for it later today.

First I'll say that Lucas and crew did a fabulous job with the visuals in these movies. You'd never believe these were 20-25 years old. They are incredible. I thought the Godfather Trilogy was done well, but this is a whole 'nuther level.

The DD EX 6.1 track is fairly competent, with some nice surprises. There are more than a few scenes that really benefit from the rear surround field. (FYI I have a "7.1" setup) Even in 5.1 (which I played with for a bit out of curiousity) the sound track is excellent. John Williams' score never sounded so good.

There are more than a few scenes that suffer from dialogue drop though (similar to Alien 3, but not nearly as bad). Especially in Star Wars (or Ep IV: A New Hope). These are relatively minor, and you don't notice them until the tonality changes when a person's voice returns to how it's suppose to sound like. I'm glad they didn't try re-recording though.

The "new scenes". I really don't know what everyone complains about. With the exception of Greedo apparently shooting first and missing Han Solo in the bar, these are all harmless scenes that had they been included in the originals, wouldn't have taken anything away from the films at all. People just love to complain I guess. There's a few subtle changes that tie the original trilogy in with the prequel trilogy (Anakin's "Force Ghost", no eyebrows on the dude under Darth Vader's mask, etc.) Given that none of these changed the plot much at all and probably would have gone un-noticed if included in the originals, I let them slide without a 2nd though. Some of them are actually kind of cool.

Seeing these again really made me think about my take on the Ep's I and II. I'll be honest, I enjoyed them, thought they were "above average" in terms of today's movies, though I've never felt they quite lived up to the Star Wars franchise, and in that they were kind of a disappointment. But I never understood all the complaining about them...I guess if something sits for 20 years, while anticipation builds, it's pretty much doomed from the start.
After watching the Original Trilogy again, and constantly thinking about Ep I and II, I've come to realize that everyone (myself included) have been way too hard on Lucas for The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.

The pace, cheesy dialogue, bad Lucas humor, and even "Shakesperean" plot evolution is actually quite consistent in all 5 movies. I had to honestly ask myself, if all 5 of these were released in 1977 at the same time, would the Ep I and II be any worse? In hindsigh, I doubt it. As much as the stupid pod-race bored me (too long, my least favorite part of all the movies so far) and the under water stuff in Ep I, it wasn't much worse than the first 50 minutes or so of A New Hope. Action wise, there's alot more interesting stuff in the new films. I really noticed, however, just how valuable Han Solo's character was. This kind of lowest-common-denominator humor isn't quite so prevalent in Ep's I and II.

There's a lot grander story being told in the new trilogies, and maybe it suffers because the whole world all pretty much knows what it is? Or maybe it's just that it's "more of the same" and not really "revolutionary" as the originals were? Who knows.
My own thought is that the originals can stand as 3 stand-alone movies, whereas the the newer films almost need to be approached as small parts of a larger story, and because of this, can drag on a bit at certain points.

At any rate, I think I'm going to blow the dust of Ep I and II and spin those later this week too, with an open mind and no criticism...Darth Maul was a pretty cool bad guy.

[Lexmark3200]

There are in-depth articles on both hometheaterforum.com AND thedigitalbits.com regarding audio problems on the EX track on Episode IV: New Hope; I do not own these yet, as I am more of a Trek nut than Wars, so I cannot say from experience, but the articles go into detail regarding John Williams' score somehow being "reversed" in the surround channels at certain points, and these dialogue dropouts you speak of; as if whole pieces of dialogue are lost somewhere in the mix itself. Check it out when you get a chance; The Digital Bits even goes as far to say that these problems may warrant exchanges for those who bought it, or for Fox to re-press the discs themselves.

[kexodusc]

There are in-depth articles on both hometheaterforum.com AND thedigitalbits.com regarding audio problems on the EX track on Episode IV: New Hope; I do not own these yet, as I am more of a Trek nut than Wars, so I cannot say from experience, but the articles go into detail regarding John Williams' score somehow being "reversed" in the surround channels at certain points, and these dialogue dropouts you speak of; as if whole pieces of dialogue are lost somewhere in the mix itself. Check it out when you get a chance; The Digital Bits even goes as far to say that these problems may warrant exchanges for those who bought it, or for Fox to re-press the discs themselves.

Hmm, curious...I'll have to look into it. I hadn't noticed anything reversed in the music, but wasn't listening for it. And if they can repair these dialogue nuances, even better.
I've heard many re-mastered DVD's with similar problems though, I just attributed it to age and the limits of modern studios...It's not nearly as bad as some movies, and you I only noticed it when the voices would all of a sudden return to normal.

I don't consider myself a Star Wars nut per se, I like just about any sci-fi movie (except maybe Battlefield Earth, Wing Commander, and anything Tim Burton touches).

Anyhoo, thanks for the tip Lex!!!

[Lexmark3200]

Hmm, curious...I'll have to look into it. I hadn't noticed anything reversed in the music, but wasn't listening for it. And if they can repair these dialogue nuances, even better.
I've heard many re-mastered DVD's with similar problems though, I just attributed it to age and the limits of modern studios...It's not nearly as bad as some movies, and you I only noticed it when the voices would all of a sudden return to normal.

I don't consider myself a Star Wars nut per se, I like just about any sci-fi movie (except maybe Battlefield Earth, Wing Commander, and anything Tim Burton touches).

Anyhoo, thanks for the tip Lex!!!

No problemo....figured I would point out that there were concerns about the audio on this Episode IV (which I think sounds silly --- just call it STAR WARS like they used to!) disc.

I know what you mean about remastered material; my "Predator Collector's Edition" is like this, where the audio, while loud and fresh sounding in DTS mode, just sounds uneven in quality and has continuous dialogue and effects dropouts; like machine gun fire would fill the front soundstage and then get lost somwhere in the two front channels and get very odd-sounding; its weird, but its there.

[Dusty Chalk]

The thing that bugged me about Episodes 1 and 2 was that the "action" sequences -- the pod race, the underwater creatures, the war with those fighter thingies and the bubbles, the part where they're rescuing the Natalie Portman character in the arena -- is that they felt like a video game. And when I played the video game (yes, I did), they (the movie scenes) felt like a setup for the video game. Whereas in the older movies, they felt like action sequences conducive to a storyline within a movie -- "oh, dear, they're in trouble, I hope they get away", "they're at war, look at all those X-wing fighters!", etc. It just felt smoother, like it was a natural extension of the plot in an action movie. In the newer films, they just felt gratuitous.

And WRT Greedo shooting and missing -- how can you miss at such close range? That's ridiculous.

[kexodusc]

The thing that bugged me about Episodes 1 and 2 was that the "action" sequences -- the pod race, the underwater creatures, the war with those fighter thingies and the bubbles, the part where they're rescuing the Natalie Portman character in the arena -- is that they felt like a video game. And when I played the video game (yes, I did), they (the movie scenes) felt like a setup for the video game. Whereas in the older movies, they felt like action sequences conducive to a storyline within a movie -- "oh, dear, they're in trouble, I hope they get away", "they're at war, look at all those X-wing fighters!", etc. It just felt smoother, like it was a natural extension of the plot in an action movie. In the newer films, they just felt gratuitous.

And WRT Greedo shooting and missing -- how can you miss at such close range? That's ridiculous.

That's interesting Dusty...there were a few scenes in Ep. 2 with Yoda that didn't quite look real enough for me, but for the most part I really think the goofy costumes and archaic special effects of the originals were improved.(though I do love a good muppet from time to time). I try not to judge movies by the effects, but it is hard. I have a feeling the Matrix would have been brutal in 1986.

I think in all, what I've come to realize it that the new Star Wars movies aren't so bad, but rather, the old ones weren't as good as I always remembered. As such, they were on an impossible pedestal that no movie could ever reach for many fans and critics. If the originals they were released today, they would be the new ones. Back in the 70's though, if it wasn't Disney, it wasn't made for kids (which is who Lucas said all along the story was mostly geared for). As such, they were revolutionary.
By 4, 5, and 6 movies, only a devoted fan will still appreciate a genre. Don't think I could sit through Tolkein's Silmarillion without drawing unfair comparisons either.

[Lexmark3200]

The thing that bugged me about Episodes 1 and 2 was that the "action" sequences -- the pod race, the underwater creatures, the war with those fighter thingies and the bubbles, the part where they're rescuing the Natalie Portman character in the arena -- is that they felt like a video game. And when I played the video game (yes, I did), they (the movie scenes) felt like a setup for the video game. Whereas in the older movies, they felt like action sequences conducive to a storyline within a movie -- "oh, dear, they're in trouble, I hope they get away", "they're at war, look at all those X-wing fighters!", etc. It just felt smoother, like it was a natural extension of the plot in an action movie. In the newer films, they just felt gratuitous.

And WRT Greedo shooting and missing -- how can you miss at such close range? That's ridiculous.

Natalie Portman was simply eye candy for these prequels, as is every half-naked chick that is being cast in films to satisfy the cravings of the male section of this new generation; I mean, she is a great looking piece of ass, dont get me wrong, but shots of her in Episode II with her shirt half-ripped to show her perfect flat stomach, I mean come on.....is that REALLY what Star Wars is all about? It was simply eye candy, no more, no less. I dont even consider the prequels --- Episodes I and II --- Science Fiction; they are more like direct-digital transfers for pure eye candy for our home theater displays --- they are showpieces for the digital age, not really ultimate sci fi storytelling at its finest or most classic.

Now, dont get me wrong --- I use Attack Of The Clones as much as the next guy to show off my theater; the Dolby EX track is amazing (especially in the bass department) and the soundstage is rich if a bit soft in the score....I just think Portman's role in all of it was simple window dressing; since when does the Star Wars world involve real hot chicks with sexy bodies and belly shirts, as we horny males are subjected to each day at our local shopping malls?

[Woochifer]

I just picked up my copy of the trilogy on my way to work (Fry's Electronics was selling it for $36 today only), so I'll see how it all fits.

I think the main thing that people are complaining about is that Lucas decided to release the trilogy without making available any version of the original movies. He keeps insisting that as far as he's concerned, the original films don't exist anymore. For people who grew up with the original trilogy, the original trilogy is what counts and what matters, warts and all. It would be as if a band decided to keep rerecording their best albums, and keep the original versions that fans first enjoyed locked up and unavailable.

With ET, the original plan was to release only the 20th anniversary edition, but after fans raised a stink, the DVD got released with both versions available. Lucas seems oblivious and almost antagonistic to his fan base. But, the thing is that as a cultural icon, Star Wars is bigger than just Lucas. He just happens to own the rights, so he sees fit to keep tinkering with it. For one thing, I'll never refer to the first movie as "A New Hope" since that tagline didn't even get inserted into the opening crawl until later rereleases. When a movie gets out there, how the fans perceive its value goes beyond the control of one guy. Lucas can try and convince us that new digital effects and tinkering with the plot lines and dialog are a good thing, but IMO that doesn't necessarily improve upon what a lot of people already regarded as their all-time favorite.

Also, gotta disagree with you about Episodes I and II. Both of those movies have been big time letdowns because Lucas lost track of what endeared the original trilogy to its fans -- the simple fact that we cared about the main characters and the fate of their quests. Young Obi Wan, Anakin, Padme -- if any one of those characters got killed, I would not have cared. If the trade federation in Episode I had prevailed, I would not have cared.

And the plotlines have gotten so convoluted that they have no clear purpose other than to advance all the plot strings up to Episode IV. In his effort to make the entire six-episode serial fit together cohesively, Lucas forgot that he still needs to make a decent standalone movie. I mean, try summarizing the plots for Phantom Menace versus Star Wars. Star Wars is about a ragtag group of adventurers who rescue a princess and defeat an evil empire. Phantom Menace is about a trade dispute, some young kid with a lot of karma, and a big battle to break a blockade that ends with the kid accidentally saving the day.

The original movie was far from perfect, but taken in the context of its time, it was groundbreaking. And the movie was simply fun.

Like everyone, I'm buying the trilogy because I just love these films. I appreciate that they did the necessary restoration work on it, and it's finally available on DVD. But, I can't help but think that the thing got rushed out due to piracy fears. I'm reading accounts about how the soundtrack in Star Wars got reversed in the surrounds with the music, and some of the remixing made some not so well advised changes. I guess I'll see when I fire up the system tonight.

Also, one thing about the Godfather trilogy, the picture quality on that DVD set has been a pretty controversial topic. I read that the recently released single-disc version of the first movie was done by a different mastering house and the look is different from the boxed set, which was done by Coppola's mastering facility.

[kexodusc]

But, the thing is that as a cultural icon, Star Wars is bigger than just Lucas. He just happens to own the rights, so he sees fit to keep tinkering with it. For one thing, I'll never refer to the first movie as "A New Hope" since that tagline didn't even get inserted into the opening crawl until later rereleases. When a movie gets out there, how the fans perceive its value goes beyond the control of one guy. Lucas can try and convince us that new digital effects and tinkering with the plot lines and dialog are a good thing, but IMO that doesn't necessarily improve upon what a lot of people already regarded as their all-time favorite.

Hmmm, I agree with this assessment. I would add that if the I was to grade the original movies out of 100, the laterations might have the effect of 1 point or 2 for me...They're nice eye candy, but don't change the story, or do damage at all in my opinion. Just like Wing Commander's eye candy didn't win it any Oscars though (to my knowledge), the new eye candy stuff isn't what the movie's about though.

Also, gotta disagree with you about Episodes I and II. Both of those movies have been big time letdowns because Lucas lost track of what endeared the original trilogy to its fans -- the simple fact that we cared about the main characters and the fate of their quests. Young Obi Wan, Anakin, Padme -- if any one of those characters got killed, I would not have cared. If the trade federation in Episode I had prevailed, I would not have cared.

I think you've approached it the wrong way. Lucas didn't lose track of anything. He held the course, stuck to what he claims was THE STORY, and told it as it is. If it isn't as interesting, doesn't have the same character appeal, then it just doesn't. I would mention that they never came with any suggestion or implication that they would be "better" than the original. Just more of the genre he created. What's worse, everyone knows the ending, and much of the plot and characters to begin with. I always approached the new films as "There's the old Star Wars trilogy and for those who asked for more, here's the back story of the rise and fall of one of the characters, the main villian, from the classic series". I've always presumed that if it was the better story, it would have been told first. It wasn't. Given what it was intended to accomplish, in hindsight, I think it's done that quite well.

And the plotlines have gotten so convoluted that they have no clear purpose other than to advance all the plot strings up to Episode IV.

What more could it have ever possibly have been intended for...it's a "Prequel"?
In my opinion that grandness and complexity of the story offer more of Lucas' imagination. As I've aged, the Original Trilogy's plot is rather primitive, it's a bit refreshing to see some of the universe expanded. The characters aren't quite as intersting, but, oh well.

In his effort to make the entire six-episode serial fit together cohesively, Lucas forgot that he still needs to make a decent standalone movie. I mean, try summarizing the plots for Phantom Menace versus Star Wars. Star Wars is about a ragtag group of adventurers who rescue a princess and defeat an evil empire. Phantom Menace is about a trade dispute, some young kid with a lot of karma, and a big battle to break a blockade that ends with the kid accidentally saving the day.

Yes, you are right here. However, artistically, the prequels are a single story told in three parts without compromise. "Star Wars" was a stand alone movie, the other two would work incredibly poor as stand alones. Every bit as bad as Ep I and II. In fact, Star Wars and ROTJ have basically the exact same plot if I was to break it down like you have.

The original movie was far from perfect, but taken in the context of its time, it was groundbreaking. And the movie was simply fun.

Yes, but I can't help but think if it wasn't released until 1999, it would be just another Sci-Fi movie, and not the cultural icon it has become.
[/QUOTE]

There are a few characters I'm interested in in the Prequel Trilogy, oddly enough, Obi, and Padme aren't them...I'm more curious about the Jedi's and the Sith...the rise of the emprie, where the Jedi went, etc...

You are right though, Wooch. The Prequel Trilogy does demand a longer attention span, has a far more intricate plot and needs to be viewed much like Lord of the Rings, 3 parts of 1 story. To me, they aren't anywhere near as great as the originals, but all in all, they aren't nearly as bad as I'd previously written them off as.

As with anything that enjoys success, after so much of it, it sort of loses mass appeal and attracts only those most loyal to it. I think everyone approached the Prequels from the point of view "this has to be as good as the original, or it sucks", not "this is the history behind the classic tale for those who've been begging for the last 20 years to have more."
It's almost like Star Trek, in that the genre became bigger than the original story. I'm glad Lucas is stopping with 6 films before it becomes too saturated. I'm also happy for the fanatics that can continue to get more of what they like.

As a musician (and dare I say artist) I really respect Lucas for not just compromising the story to whatever everyone wanted to see. He has a story and he's sticking with it. In the music world, if he did compromise the story lines just to sell better, he'd have been reamed big time.

Any artist will tell you that many of their works are constantly evolving. As much as I love the original trilogy, I have no problem conceding these incredibly minor changes to Lucas. If the suck, they suck. If Jar-Jar becomes Luke's father in ROTJ, then I won't buy the HD-DVD version or whatever. I can still enjoy the original (though only on VHS, grr).

[recoveryone]

WOW, you guys went way down the road on your reviews and comments. I was just going to say that I enjoyed the DVD and the sound mix was a big improvement, it made me feel like I was watching the movie for the first time again. For me, hearing the little small things pulls you into the movie..IE: C3PO feet walking in the sand and the chess game, you hear them click the buttoms to make each piece move. little things like that is what I listen for. The Transfer was real nice especially when you see Luke looking off into the sky with the Moon and setting sun. I'm gogin to watch the other ones later and I'll come back and add my 2cents.

[kexodusc]

The "commentary tracks" have tons of interesting tidbits of info...normally I wouldn't watch 6 hours plus of directors/crew commentary, but I might make an exception in this case...
Finished Empire tonight...there is a slight improvement all the way in this film...3 years is a long time in Hollywood I guess...bigger budget, newer technologies. This DVD was top notch.
And the newly revised scenes took care of my biggest personal beef with the original trilogy...I won't spoil it here.

It really is like watching it all over again for the first time. My VHS tapers were all but worn out and were only so-so anyway...I'm noticing quite a few new things in the scenery.

I must admit, 25 years later these still don't look "dated".

[eqm]

Also, one thing about the Godfather trilogy, the picture quality on that DVD set has been a pretty controversial topic. I read that the recently released single-disc version of the first movie was done by a different mastering house and the look is different from the boxed set, which was done by Coppola's mastering facility.

Which one is supposed to look better? I was thinking about getting the 1st and 2nd as singles, w/o having to get the box set. Depending on what looks the best, however....

[Woochifer]

Which one is supposed to look better? I was thinking about getting the 1st and 2nd as singles, w/o having to get the box set. Depending on what looks the best, however....

Here's an article that came out last year in the NY Times about problems faced during DVD mastering. The Godfather was cited as an example of something that was getting redone after the first edition already went out.

http://www.unlv.edu/programs/filmarc.../bad_dvds.html

For months, I was reading rumors that the new version was supposed to fix the problems with the original DVD release, but I don't know for sure if this actually happened. I have not seen too many reviews of the single-disc Godfather DVD (the boxed set however was reviewed by every DVD site, and heavily debated), and I haven't seen anyone post any comparisons between the two versions. One review that I read speculated that the newer one used a higher bitrate, but they did not do an A/B comparison. According to that NY Times article, Lowry Digital was hired to do a new Godfather transfer, and they're the same company that just did the Star Wars trilogy, which IMO is a very well done set visually. Keep in mind that the original boxed set was done by American Zoetrope's mastering facility and approved by Coppola, so it might be more the look that he was looking for.

[Woochifer]

Okay, now that I've confirmed that the music in the surround channels in the Star Wars DVD is indeed reversed, I think we should let THX know that their "certified" disc with a reversed surround audio track is an inexcusable lapse. If anyone wants to report the defect, THX's DVD problem reporting page is linked below.

http://www.thx.com/mod/products/dvdProbs.html

Also, this is no joke, THX's press release talks about the advanced QC that went into the Star Wars DVD set! Read this if you want a good laugh.

http://www.thx.com/news/20040923A.html

[eisforelectronic]

Speaking of "Wing Commander", just in case anyone was wondering why Panaka didn't make it from Phantom Menace to Attack of the Clones, it's because he died in Wing Commander, like Shaggy and Fred should have.

By the way, why were they loading torpedos by hand in Wing Commander? And why was there fire coming through the hatch behind them when they were fired?

[eqm]

[QUOTE=eisforelectronic]Speaking of "Wing Commander", just in case anyone was wondering why Panaka didn't make it from Phantom Menace to Attack of the Clones, it's because he died in Wing Commander, like Shaggy and Fred should have.

[QUOTE]

the first time i saw PM in the theater, my buddy, girlfriend, and I all thought it was captain "BINACA". we thought he probably had the freshest breath in the galaxy.

[Mr Peabody]

I have been disappointed in remasters of older movies up to this point. One exception was Tron I thought they done a pretty good job with that. Watching Tron after many years it just didn't stand the test of time for me. Back to what I was going to say, I rented Return of The Jedi to see what it sounded like. My thought were it was a long way from Attack of The Killer Clones or Episode One yet it was the best remaster I have yet to hear. I didn't pay enough attention to reversal of channels but I did sense some things out of sync and attributed it to just trying to make an old movie sound modern. Aside from some of the flaws that were detected I also thought the sound effects for the ships were sometimes opposite, the sound went one way when the ship went the other or started in the back and had a drop in sound then ended up in the center channel. I put in the VHS just to see the difference, wow! that really brings home the work that was done on this restoration. For some reason to me though the space bike chase seemed to be more intense or have a sense of the bikes being faster on VHS and it's very obvious that sound effects were added to the DVD. The DVD video is just night and day better than the VHS. My wife thought the VHS had better color but was like being projected in comparison to sharpness. I have no idea why she thought that about the color.

Am I the only person that liked Battlefield Earth? I thought Travolta was outstanding in this movie. What do you rat brains know anyway

[kexodusc]

Mr. Peabody...The reverse channels, and other audio flaws are only being reported on Star Wars (Ep. IV A New Hope, whatever it's called now)...Return of the Jedi should be fine...

I really liked the Tron remaster too...thought the movie has lost my interest.

"Attack of the Killer Clones"...good one..I have the Tomato movies on VHS..
What's even funnier, the final movie is actually called "Revenge of the Sith", and Return of the Jedi was suppose to be called "Revenge of the Jedi"...
So did Lucas rip off the killer tomato franchise, or vice-versa?

[Kam]

not that i have a problem with either the fisher jabba scene or portman white jumpsuit scene, but i think the main difference is in the quality of storytelling between the two scenes.
leia was put in that outfit by jabba to BE a sexual object to him, that was the point of the outfit, for jabba's gratification. the fact that the audience got the same titilation, while obvious, is secondary to the story. portman was put in that outfit by lucas' wardrobe people to be a sexual object for the kiddies, that was the point of the outfit, the audience's gratification. the audience was the only reason for the titilation.
pretty much like someone else said about the story being a vehicle for the fx vs. the fx just helping to tell the story. it's pretty much prevalant throughout. however, for the record, i am a fan of the bare midriff look and don't mind it.
i wonder if the baby luke in episode 3 is just gonna cry the whole time. watching the movies again, man was he one whiny lil bastard, and everyone still loved him as the hero!

peace
k2