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  1. #1
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Toy Story 10th Anniversay vs Old transfer

    I am a total lover of animation, and Toy Story really fueled this love. I owned the original copy that I believed to be of reference quality in both picture and in sound. I purchased the 10th anniversay edition because it had more extra's to check out, the promise of higher bitrate to the video, and the Dts soundtrack. I wasn't let down one bit on all accounts.

    Forget the story line we all know it, but is it worth it to invest or upgrade to this disc? I would say definately YES!

    I was so blown away by what I saw on the screen, and what I heard on my speakers, that I had to compare the two just to see why I felt more envolved in this edition, than I was on the last. In order to get a real time comparison, I syc'd two of my DVD players via their progressive output through my new Grass Valley video signal processor/switcher which allows me to split the screen and view each players ouput sync'd together. The comparison proved interesting and enlightening.

    Overall I found that the new version looks like a for lack of better words a "digital glaze" has been removed, sort of bringing the characters one step closer to you, and enabling you to connect more with them. Color overall is more saturated, clean and clear on the new release versus the old. Black levels also seem a little deeper, but both had no chroma or visible artifacts to be found. There is no edge enhancement to be found on either. When it comes to 3D like qualities, the new edition subtlelt exceeds the old. There is absolute no color bleeding to be found. The old version went through the traditional video to film to back to video transition. The extra D/A conversion really made a difference between the two as this new version is a straight to video transfer and does look a little better.

    Sound wise the DD is the same great audio that was on the previous release. I thought the first soundtrack was really very good, and the comparison between the two DD tracks revealed no differences whatsoever. However with direct level matched comparison between the DD and Dts tracks was very revealing.
    From the very beginning you notice that the Dts soundtracks sound more dynamic and less "digital". There is more "air" and less grit, and it is much more revealing of nuance and fine detail. Doors that close have a nice thud, strings that are plucked have a greater leading edge transient response than on the DD. Timbres of different instruments are richer, and harmonically dynamic. The real improvement from the Dts track over DD is in the bass. The amount of detail in the Dts mix is astounding. Instead of everything taking on a distinctive boom, you notice that different effects has a very distinct quality. Some booms have a quick pop, and sharp decay, while others have a very tight snap with a lingering signal fading to a deep blackness. Dialog is richer with more air around it, and fully tracks the characters position across the stage. I found that Dts more accurately placed the pans than DD did. Another area the the Dts version exceeds the DD soundtrack is in the soundfield. Most sound effects are clear, and accurately placed. However when comparing DD to Dts I found that the effect on the DD tended to pool around the speakers, while effect, dialog and music tended to just float in space completely independent of speaker position. Phantom imaging is greatly improved in Dts, with effects between all channels(including center rear) much clearer, and easy to delineate. While there are no night and day improvements, there are enough improvement collectively to warrant a upgrade on the audio alone.

    While I have double dipped titles in the past, none have worth the investment more than this one. This IMO is a must have for animation lovers with great WS digital television setups, and very good audio systems.
    Sir Terrence

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  2. #2
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Sold...I'll grab mine at luch hour.

    It'll be tough to top "The Incredibles" though...what a great display of a/v wizardry.

  3. #3
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Instead of everything taking on a distinctive boom, you notice that different effects has a very distinct quality. Some booms have a quick pop, and sharp decay, while others have a very tight snap with a lingering signal fading to a deep blackness.

    Forgive my lack of versedness (is that a word?) in HT lingo but what you said above is something that has really annoyed me in the past with the audio on many DVD releases. It's seems that many audio tracks have the same excact "thud" and "Boom" for every bass sound effect. It gets annoying just hearing a muddy mess all the time. You really start to appreciate well recorded and well thought out detailed audio on some the better DVDs out there. We don't need rumbling bass through an entire movie all the time.

    Believe it or not, I have yet to see Toy Story on DVD. I think I will have to go get this new update and try it out. Like Kex mentioned, the Incredibles is a fantastic video and audio DVD and it also seems to have a lot of bass detail. I

    It seems like a lot of DVDs are mixed for the "basshead" crowd where bigger and louder are the goal.

    JSE

  4. #4
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    Forgive my lack of versedness (is that a word?) in HT lingo but what you said above is something that has really annoyed me in the past with the audio on many DVD releases. It's seems that many audio tracks have the same excact "thud" and "Boom" for every bass sound effect. It gets annoying just hearing a muddy mess all the time. You really start to appreciate well recorded and well thought out detailed audio on some the better DVDs out there. We don't need rumbling bass through an entire movie all the time.

    Believe it or not, I have yet to see Toy Story on DVD. I think I will have to go get this new update and try it out. Like Kex mentioned, the Incredibles is a fantastic video and audio DVD and it also seems to have a lot of bass detail. I

    It seems like a lot of DVDs are mixed for the "basshead" crowd where bigger and louder are the goal.

    JSE
    Ineteresting observation. I notice this somewhat on your basic action movies, especially ones that are limited only to Dolby Digital.
    I have noticed over time that DVD's I thought previously were mixed poorly and were the typical "all bass sounds the same" were actually not as I replaced speakers, subs, and components. In some cases, my room was exciting the primary frequencies of the bass effect in question, so it wasn't a fair assessment on my part.
    Adding a parametric EQ really opened my eyes. Everything sounds better now.

    Of course, there are still some that aren't that great. The Lord of the Rings trilogy has a great deal of both good and bad bass effects IMO. I think maybe they are done that way for theater purposes, and then captured on the DVD - then possibly we're finding that what works in theaters doesn't always work as well at home? Just a thought.

    U-571 is commonly referred as a subwoofer testing/reference DVD. It has a lot of loud, low bass frequencies, but I don't find it has much range. Kill Bill on the other hand has a bit of everything.
    Last edited by kexodusc; 09-12-2005 at 06:58 AM.

  5. #5
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    possibly we're finding that what works in theaters doesn't always work as well at home? Just a thought.
    Do you think that it has to do with the size of our rooms compared to the size of the average theator?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  6. #6
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    Do you think that it has to do with the size of our rooms compared to the size of the average theator?
    Well this would certainly make sense as far as room nodes and modes go. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to studio work etc, but I would expect that this massive size difference would be compensated for in the studio somehow before it went to DVD, if in fact it was responsible for introducing nasties. Maybe I'm wrong...perhaps Sir T could shed some light on this for us?

    It seems counter-intuitive to me, usually my DVD's sound waaaay better than the theaters do, except at acheiving the same scale of sheer size that the larger rooms can deliver.

  7. #7
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Ineteresting observation. I notice this somewhat on your basic action movies, especially ones that are limited only to Dolby Digital.
    I have noticed over time that DVD's I thought previously were mixed poorly and were the typical "all bass sounds the same" were actually not as I replaced speakers, subs, and components. In some cases, my room was exciting the primary frequencies of the bass effect in question, so it wasn't a fair assessment on my part.
    Adding a parametric EQ really opened my eyes. Everything sounds better now.

    Of course, there are still some that aren't that great. The Lord of the Rings trilogy has a great deal of both good and bad bass effects IMO. I think maybe they are done that way for theater purposes, and then captured on the DVD - then possibly we're finding that what works in theaters doesn't always work as well at home? Just a thought.

    U-571 is commonly referred as a subwoofer testing/reference DVD. It has a lot of loud, low bass frequencies, but I don't find it has much range. Kill Bill on the other hand has a bit of everything.

    Yeah, I hear you on the EQ. I have run YPAO (RX-V1400) and have tweaked it a bit from there. I think I have it pretty dialed in now. I actually preferred the tweaked YPAO result over the SPL meter and cailbration disc result. Not sure if I would ever add an external EQ.

  8. #8
    Loving This kexodusc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSE
    Yeah, I hear you on the EQ. I have run YPAO (RX-V1400) and have tweaked it a bit from there. I think I have it pretty dialed in now. I actually preferred the tweaked YPAO result over the SPL meter and cailbration disc result. Not sure if I would ever add an external EQ.
    Hi JSE, I have the RX-V1400 too. To be honest, in my room, I don't find YPAO does a whole lot. I have 6 identical speakers and a matching center channel though, and I think I might require fewer corrections than some. A few minor improvments though.

    As for the external EQ...if you use a subwoofer, YPAO is useless to you. It doesn't do anything below 63 Hz (and actually, I think it's 100 Hz or higher on our model) and is very limited in it's ability to EQ bass frequencies above 63 Hz. That's unfortunate, 20-80 Hz is probably where 99% of the population needs parametric EQing the most, standing waves are more troublesome than the ranges YPAO does handle.

    With the size of those frequencies' wavelengths in most average rooms, don't be surprised if your bass response below 80 Hz is +/-12 dB or worse. Mine was, after running YPAO.

    I'd recommend the trusty ol' Behringer Feedback Destroyer - for $100-$125, no subwoofer should be used without one. If you search back around March/April I posted my results with the BFD...

  9. #9
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    I bought the DVD last week because I never bothered with the previous movie-only edition (and didn't feel like paying $60 for the Ultimate Toybox set that had all the extra bonus features). So far, I've only previewed a few minutes of the disc, and my first impression of the video presentation is quite positive -- definitely up there with the better video transfers that I've seen thus far. The audio that I've heard so far also sounds quite good, but I haven't done any comparison with the DD track yet. At this point, it's definitely at least on par with the DD tracks on Monsters, Inc. and The Incredibles.

  10. #10
    Forum Regular Woochifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Ineteresting observation. I notice this somewhat on your basic action movies, especially ones that are limited only to Dolby Digital.
    I have noticed over time that DVD's I thought previously were mixed poorly and were the typical "all bass sounds the same" were actually not as I replaced speakers, subs, and components. In some cases, my room was exciting the primary frequencies of the bass effect in question, so it wasn't a fair assessment on my part.
    Adding a parametric EQ really opened my eyes. Everything sounds better now.
    Amazing how much better things sound when you calibrate the system properly and minimize the room-induced problems to the extent that you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Of course, there are still some that aren't that great. The Lord of the Rings trilogy has a great deal of both good and bad bass effects IMO. I think maybe they are done that way for theater purposes, and then captured on the DVD - then possibly we're finding that what works in theaters doesn't always work as well at home? Just a thought.

    U-571 is commonly referred as a subwoofer testing/reference DVD. It has a lot of loud, low bass frequencies, but I don't find it has much range. Kill Bill on the other hand has a bit of everything.
    In the case of LOTR:FOTR, the theatrical version DVD was indeed recorded way too loud with an excessive amount of bass. I wouldn't be surprised if they pumped up the LFE track higher than what was on the theatrical release because there were instances where distortion was audible. I saw FOTR at an IMAX theater and did not recall the bass sounding as excessive as it does on the DVD.

    The Extended Edition has a more balanced sounding bass, and the levels on the DD and DTS soundtracks were more in line with I normally observe on DVD soundtracks. The TT and ROTK theatrical DVDs also used the more normal levels and better balance with the bass.

    Actually, I thought U-571 has a pretty good overall soundtrack. The explosions are pretty spectacular with their deep extension, but other scenes like the big band concert near the beginning of the movie I thought put the bass range to very good use.

    You're right about Kill Bill. It's another great soundtrack, but it does things in very subtle ways, which I like.

    Quote Originally Posted by kexodusc
    It seems counter-intuitive to me, usually my DVD's sound waaaay better than the theaters do, except at acheiving the same scale of sheer size that the larger rooms can deliver.
    Not counter-intuitive at all! Movie theater sound systems have to be optimized so that the majority of the auditorium can get some semblance of surround imaging. That means using large arrays of surround speakers along the walls, and this is how theatrical soundtracks get mixed.

    With a home theater, you can optimize the alignment for your seating position, without having to compromise anything to please people sitting a few rows around you. Some DVD soundtracks get repurposed for home theaters and the results are pretty stunning when you hear them (Master and Commander is an example of a surround encirclement effect that you cannot possibly hear in a large movie theater with surround arrays).

    Even IMAX theaters are designed with point source surround clusters near the rear corners of the auditorium, which is similar to how home theaters are setup. The soundtracks for IMAX movies are optimized for this kind of setup (supposedly, IMAX maintains identical sight lines and room proportions for all of their theaters, which is why they can use point source surround speakers rather than arrays), and it's obvious when watching IMAX DVDs.

    For my movie enjoyment, there are only a few showcase theaters where the sound is preferable to what I get at home. I mainly see things on the big screen because I still use a 4:3 analog TV at home.

  11. #11
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    Your Monitor?

    Hi Terrence, I hope you have replaced your analog 4:3 RPTV. Just curious.

  12. #12
    M.P.S.E /AES/SMPTE member Sir Terrence the Terrible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hairsonfire
    Hi Terrence, I hope you have replaced your analog 4:3 RPTV. Just curious.
    Replaced it about 5 months ago. As you can see in my sig, I replaced it with a Toshiba 65H84 on Joe Kanes recommendation. I have it calibrated to SPMTE specs, and tweaked to death using a Grass Valley video processor/signal router(Great upscaler, unlimited adjustments for video tweaking). My DVD players signals are 480P and are upscaled to 1080i through the processor.

    My analog 4:3 rests comfortably in my bedroom for which I am building another HT setup in.
    Sir Terrence

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  13. #13
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    IMHO I don't think you can beat a properly calibrated RPTV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible
    Replaced it about 5 months ago. As you can see in my sig, I replaced it with a Toshiba 65H84 on Joe Kanes recommendation. I have it calibrated to SPMTE specs, and tweaked to death using a Grass Valley video processor/signal router(Great upscaler, unlimited adjustments for video tweaking). My DVD players signals are 480P and are upscaled to 1080i through the processor.

    My analog 4:3 rests comfortably in my bedroom for which I am building another HT setup in.
    I have had by Sony 57 inch Wide Screen for almost three years now and I am amazed at the picture both for DVD and HDTV viewing. Nice to have a personal response from STTT. Thanks buddy!

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