best showpiece for 7.1 system?

[ronning]

I'm curious as to which movies out there would be great audio tests and "show off" movies for a big thumpin' 7.1 system. (I'm assuming mostly 6.1 DTS stuff.. but not necessarily).

[Bryan]

Saving Private Ryan would be an excellent choice, IMO.

[Woochifer]

Master and Commander has some of the best directional mixing I've ever heard. If your speakers are correctly positioned and calibrated, the soundtrack will convey both the directionality of the sounds and the size of the space. And the cannon blasts have a lot of low frequency info, so they'll give the subwoofer a workout as well.

[mustang]

If you want to show off the capabilities of your 7.1 set-up, I recommend Mission to Mars. Not so much for it's SPLs, but for its surround sound. Ther are a couple of scenes where the camera pans around the room and the audio remains locked on the source. This creates a sound that travels from the center and does a "360" around the room from speaker to speaker. Master and Commander also puts you deep into the action with footsteps that seem to come from above and the cannons are tremendous. Another one is Star Wars: Episode II. The opening sequence has the queen's ship fly in from the back to the front. It exploits both the surround(back to rear to front)panning and SPL of your system.

[cam]

If you want to show off the capabilities of your 7.1 set-up, I recommend Mission to Mars. Not so much for it's SPLs, but for its surround sound. Ther are a couple of scenes where the camera pans around the room and the audio remains locked on the source. This creates a sound that travels from the center and does a "360" around the room from speaker to speaker. Master and Commander also puts you deep into the action with footsteps that seem to come from above and the cannons are tremendous. Another one is Star Wars: Episode II. The opening sequence has the queen's ship fly in from the back to the front. It exploits both the surround(back to rear to front)panning and SPL of your system.

As far as star wars : episode II, I found that running in DD EX with 7.1 to have a collapsed soundfield compared to running it in 5.1. I do believe that having those center rears on it muddled up my side di-polar surrounds. Maybe if I had direct firing speakers for all my surrounds I would have a different opinion. Again, just my opinion, I have never heard an EX, ES, or discrete 6.1 that sounded better then my 5.1 with di-polar speakers. This 360 degree sound that everyone is going for, front to back, side to side, or any combination of those I get in spads from my di-polars in my 5.1. This 6.1 or so called 7.1 speaker array is all set up for companys to sell more receivers and speakers. If people spend the money on all these 6.1/7.1 extra goodies, because they spent the money they will convince the mind that it sounds superior to 5.1. Again just my opinion, my di-polar surrounds make my 5.1 sound better then any 6.1/7.1 speaker array that I have heard so far. I'm only talking about movies not music. I have also spent countless hours tuning my 5.1 so just maybe I have got it THEATER PERFECT.

[eqm]

Master and Commander has some of the best directional mixing I've ever heard. If your speakers are correctly positioned and calibrated, the soundtrack will convey both the directionality of the sounds and the size of the space. And the cannon blasts have a lot of low frequency info, so they'll give the subwoofer a workout as well.

i found that a lot of the cannon shots that were supposed to come out of the front seemed to be overly aggressive in the surround channels? did you hear the same thing? i loved the subwoofer shots through my sub and the sounds of the guys walking on the deck above, but the shots from the back when the action is in front made me scratch my head a little.

[cam]

i found that a lot of the cannon shots that were supposed to come out of the front seemed to be overly aggressive in the surround channels? did you hear the same thing? i loved the subwoofer shots through my sub and the sounds of the guys walking on the deck above, but the shots from the back when the action is in front made me scratch my head a little.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of being in a circle of sound it ends up on a narrower sound field. If you had a 5.1 system with your surrounds on the side, at or a couple of feet back, then those shots that were coming straight from the back will now appear to be coming from all around you. I don't think that a 6.1/7.1 system can be used for a more immersed sound because of the location of our ears and the way our ears interperate where sound is coming from. To me those extra surrounds irritate the $hit out of me. Distracting is the best word for it. A complete waste of money, but the manufacturers would like you to think otherwise.

[eqm]

This is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of being in a circle of sound it ends up on a narrower sound field. If you had a 5.1 system with your surrounds on the side, at or a couple of feet back, then those shots that were coming straight from the back will now appear to be coming from all around you. I don't think that a 6.1/7.1 system can be used for a more immersed sound because of the location of our ears and the way our ears interperate where sound is coming from. To me those extra surrounds irritate the $hit out of me. Distracting is the best word for it. A complete waste of money, but the manufacturers would like you to think otherwise.

i'm more referring to the fact that even in a 5.1 mode, the sound engineer sent the cannon shots to the rears, even though the action is seen in front of the listener. it's kind of like a guy standing on the right side of the screen talking with his voice coming out of the left speaker. it simply has to do with where the sound engineer decided to send the info.

as far as the 6.1 and 7.1 setups go...how many speakers do you see in your local movie theater? how many of those are on the sides? movies are mixed for those theaters and not really changed much (if at all) for the home. see a THX re-eq system definition if you need more explanation. and yes, i understand that the movie is still mixed for 5.1 generally (even there are multiple speakers per channel of info), there is a great deal of transition that can occur that much more smoothly from a front to back or circular steering with a well set-up 7.1 or 6.1 system, imo.

[cam]

i'm more referring to the fact that even in a 5.1 mode, the sound engineer sent the cannon shots to the rears, even though the action is seen in front of the listener. it's kind of like a guy standing on the right side of the screen talking with his voice coming out of the left speaker. it simply has to do with where the sound engineer decided to send the info.

as far as the 6.1 and 7.1 setups go...how many speakers do you see in your local movie theater? how many of those are on the sides? movies are mixed for those theaters and not really changed much (if at all) for the home. see a THX re-eq system definition if you need more explanation. and yes, i understand that the movie is still mixed for 5.1 generally (even there are multiple speakers per channel of info), there is a great deal of transition that can occur that much more smoothly from a front to back or circular steering with a well set-up 7.1 or 6.1 system, imo.

Play the movie again and turn off your center rear speakers and tell me what you think? All my experiences with movies watched in 5.1 and then right after watched in 6.1/7.1 was that as soon as I put it in 6.1/7.1 the sound got very narrow. I would turn off the ex or es decoder depending on what I was watching, all of a sudden the sound went wider, more expansive as if my side surround speakers were way in the distance when in actual fact they are only about 8 feet away. Just try it again on the same movie and let me know. You said the sound engineer sent the canon shots to the rear but just maybe he sent it to sound like it was coming from somewhere around you. The best way I can describe it is, my 5.1 system as is right now with my di-pole speakers for my side surrounds makes me feel like I am in a circle. When I was using center rear speakers before it felt like I was in a rectangle. I plan on renting that exact movie next week to find out for myself.

[eqm]

Play the movie again and turn off your center rear speakers and tell me what you think? All my experiences with movies watched in 5.1 and then right after watched in 6.1/7.1 was that as soon as I put it in 6.1/7.1 the sound got very narrow. I would turn off the ex or es decoder depending on what I was watching, all of a sudden the sound went wider, more expansive as if my side surround speakers were way in the distance when in actual fact they are only about 8 feet away. Just try it again on the same movie and let me know. You said the sound engineer sent the canon shots to the rear but just maybe he sent it to sound like it was coming from somewhere around you. The best way I can describe it is, my 5.1 system as is right now with my di-pole speakers for my side surrounds makes me feel like I am in a circle. When I was using center rear speakers before it felt like I was in a rectangle. I plan on renting that exact movie next week to find out for myself.

hey cam...yeah it still happens. btw...what kind of receiver/amp are you using. i know on many, the power supply struggles on 5.1 let alone 6 or 7.1. i'm not dissing your gear per se, but i'm wondering if this had something to do with it. myself, i'm using some separate amps in the mix and getting much smoother results than using a more simple 5.1 rig. could be processor, available power, etc...? your insights?

[cam]

hey cam...yeah it still happens. btw...what kind of receiver/amp are you using. i know on many, the power supply struggles on 5.1 let alone 6 or 7.1. i'm not dissing your gear per se, but i'm wondering if this had something to do with it. myself, i'm using some separate amps in the mix and getting much smoother results than using a more simple 5.1 rig. could be processor, available power, etc...? your insights?

As is right now, Amp denon 1804- 90 watts x 6, Mains- Paradigm monitor 7's- 93 db efficient, center cc370- 93 db efficient, Side surrounds adp 370's(di-poles)- 94 db efficient, Sub- pw-2200 400 rms crossed over at 80 hz. There are 2 bannana plug hook-ups for the center surround even though the amp is a 6.1. If both are used the 90 watts is divided. I first hooked up another cc 370 for the center rear surround-(hated it) I then hooked up a pair of mini-monitors in series-(hated it) Then I used the 2 hook ups for 2 speakers even though the power is divided- used a pair of mini-monitors-(hated it). I don't think more power would make it better because of the fact that sound coming dead center behind me and I now where it is coming from would distract me from my usual surround sound experience. Maybe my Denon 1804 has a $hitty ex/es decoder, I don't know but what I do know is that sound coming dead center behind me iritates me when I know it should be coming from around me.

[eqm]

As is right now, Amp denon 1804- 90 watts x 6, Mains- Paradigm monitor 7's- 93 db efficient, center cc370- 93 db efficient, Side surrounds adp 370's(di-poles)- 94 db efficient, Sub- pw-2200 400 rms crossed over at 80 hz. There are 2 bannana plug hook-ups for the center surround even though the amp is a 6.1. If both are used the 90 watts is divided. I first hooked up another cc 370 for the center rear surround-(hated it) I then hooked up a pair of mini-monitors in series-(hated it) Then I used the 2 hook ups for 2 speakers even though the power is divided- used a pair of mini-monitors-(hated it). I don't think more power would make it better because of the fact that sound coming dead center behind me and I now where it is coming from would distract me from my usual surround sound experience. Maybe my Denon 1804 has a $hitty ex/es decoder, I don't know but what I do know is that sound coming dead center behind me iritates me when I know it should be coming from around me.

the 1804 is a great 5.1 receiver, but i'm thinking it is having trouble pulling enough power to handle all 6 speakers at once and do it as well as it does 5.1...? it has been my experience that receiver manufacturers tend to pack as many "features" as possible in the $500 and under category...taking away from the available power supplies. i haven't had 1-on-1 testing with the 1804 with a setup like yours...but heres a thought: currently i'm running the denon 3802 with an adcom 2-channel to bi-amp my fronts...so right now i'm throwing as much power to my speakers as i can afford for the short term. i don't think the denon's decoders are at fault, at least. i guess what i'm trying to say, is unless you really, really, REALLY want to dive into the 6.1 or 7.1 realm, keep on rocking with what you've got.

[cam]

the 1804 is a great 5.1 receiver, but i'm thinking it is having trouble pulling enough power to handle all 6 speakers at once and do it as well as it does 5.1...? it has been my experience that receiver manufacturers tend to pack as many "features" as possible in the $500 and under category...taking away from the available power supplies. i haven't had 1-on-1 testing with the 1804 with a setup like yours...but heres a thought: currently i'm running the denon 3802 with an adcom 2-channel to bi-amp my fronts...so right now i'm throwing as much power to my speakers as i can afford for the short term. i don't think the denon's decoders are at fault, at least. i guess what i'm trying to say, is unless you really, really, REALLY want to dive into the 6.1 or 7.1 realm, keep on rocking with what you've got.

If I ever step up to something like the denon 3805 or yammy 2400 or even better, seperates I will try this 6.1/7.1 again. I know alot of people rave about there 6 or 7 speaker array, I just wished that I could have aswell. Maybe one day I hope!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Does anyone(with the exception of Wooch) understand that there is no such thing as 7.1 for hometheater? Is anyone also aware that Star Wars episode II is not a 7.1 or 6.1 soundtrack at all(neither is Mission from Mars) These are all 5.1+1 soundtracks, not 6.1. You can only have a 6.1 soundtrack if the center rear is discreet. That is not the case of Dolby Digital EX.

i found that a lot of the cannon shots that were supposed to come out of the front seemed to be overly aggressive in the surround channels? did you hear the same thing? i loved the subwoofer shots through my sub and the sounds of the guys walking on the deck above, but the shots from the back when the action is in front made me scratch my head a little.

This is called POV(point of view) mixing. The action is being focused on the ship being attacked, yet the cannon shots are coming from the ship that is attacking. If it is physically located behind the ship being attacked, then it should originate from behind. If someone is shooting at you from behind, you don't want to hear the gunshots from the center front channel. This will cause a discontinuity with the eyes and ears.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Instead of being in a circle of sound it ends up on a narrower sound field. If you had a 5.1 system with your surrounds on the side, at or a couple of feet back, then those shots that were coming straight from the back will now appear to be coming from all around you. I don't think that a 6.1/7.1 system can be used for a more immersed sound because of the location of our ears and the way our ears interperate where sound is coming from. To me those extra surrounds irritate the $hit out of me. Distracting is the best word for it. A complete waste of money, but the manufacturers would like you to think otherwise.

Cam, if used appropriately it is not a waste of money. The problem with it is that instead of evaluating the width of you room and deciding if you REALLY needed it, people just saw the need to stick EX(and ES) in the rooms, which in most cases didn't need it in the first place. Part of this mistake belongs to THX for pushing it at all costs, even though it's effectiveness is diminished as the room get more narrow. When EX first arrived, I warned the hometheater forum that if you room wasn't VERY wide, then there is no need for EX. I was blown off of course! Everyone wanted the latest enhancement. Now I hear of more folks going from 5.1+1 back to 5.1 because the effect was to subtle to justify the sixth speaker. Told YA!!!!!

Now, when you add EX to a VERY large room, it's effectiveness cannot be questioned. this is where it is truely effective.

As far as those shots coming from all around you, that would not be correct processing. The cannon shots SHOULD be coming from directly BEHIND you, not all around. Only dipole speakers make this kind of spatial error. That is because it is impossible for a dipole speaker to place images directly behind the head because that part of the speaker is out of phase. Only surround speakers that are able to process in phase signal will be able to image behind the head.

6.1 setups CAN create immersive effects, and are quite effective at doing so. They have to be carefully configured in the frequency and time domain at all channels for this effective to be enjoyed. So unless you use IDENTICAL speakers, and time delay(or correct physical distance) on the center rear channels, you will get some strange spatial effects such a soundfield narrowing, holes in the soundfield, or strange soundfield pulling at different frequencies.

[cam]

Does anyone(with the exception of Wooch) understand that there is no such thing as 7.1 for hometheater? Is anyone also aware that Star Wars episode II is not a 7.1 or 6.1 soundtrack at all(neither is Mission from Mars) These are all 5.1+1 soundtracks, not 6.1. You can only have a 6.1 soundtrack if the center rear is discreet. That is not the case of Dolby Digital EX.



This is called POV(point of view) mixing. The action is being focused on the ship being attacked, yet the cannon shots are coming from the ship that is attacking. If it is physically located behind the ship being attacked, then it should originate from behind. If someone is shooting at you from behind, you don't want to hear the gunshots from the center front channel. This will cause a discontinuity with the eyes and ears.



Cam, if used appropriately it is not a waste of money. The problem with it is that instead of evaluating the width of you room and deciding if you REALLY needed it, people just saw the need to stick EX(and ES) in the rooms, which in most cases didn't need it in the first place. Part of this mistake belongs to THX for pushing it at all costs, even though it's effectiveness is diminished as the room get more narrow. When EX first arrived, I warned the hometheater forum that if you room was VERY wide, then there is no need for EX. I was blown off of course! Everyone wanted the latest enhancement. Now I hear of more folks going from 5.1+1 back to 5.1 because the effect was to subtle to justify the sixth speaker. Told YA!!!!!

Now, when you add EX to a VERY large room, it's effectiveness cannot be questioned. this is where it is truely effective.

As far as those shots coming from all around you, that would not be correct processing. The cannon shots SHOULD be coming from directly BEHIND you, not all around. Only dipole speakers make this kind of spatial error. That is because it is impossible for a dipole speaker to place images directly behind the head because that part of the speaker is out of phase. Only surround speakers that are able to process in phase signal will be able to image behind the head.

6.1 setups CAN create immersive effects, and are quite effective at doing so. They have to be carefully configured in the frequency and time domain at all channels for this effective to be enjoyed. So unless you use IDENTICAL speakers, and time delay(or correct physical distance) on the center rear channels, you will get some strange spatial effects such a soundfield narrowing, holes in the soundfield, or strange soundfield pulling at different frequencies.

Thanks Sir Double TT for all that great information. The width of my room is almost 14 feet wide. When using di-pole speakers in 5.1 my room feels like it is 40 feet wide. When I used center rear speakers in 5.1+1 my room felt like it was 8 feet wide. I would have thought 14 feet wide would have been a good situation for the center rear speakers, maybe 20 feet would be about right. You know I was really beginning to think it was my ex/es decoder in my Denon, never did I think that my room was not wide enough. I did know that if your couch was already against the back wall things would not work but I have about 11 feet behind me so with that I thought everything should have been perfect, I was wrong. Thanks again.

[Woochifer]

i found that a lot of the cannon shots that were supposed to come out of the front seemed to be overly aggressive in the surround channels? did you hear the same thing? i loved the subwoofer shots through my sub and the sounds of the guys walking on the deck above, but the shots from the back when the action is in front made me scratch my head a little.

I think Terrence covered this point very well. It's precisely about how the soundtrack conveys the point of view and the sounds that surround it. The reason why I recommended Master and Commander is because with a properly calibrated and positioned speaker setup, the sense of space and location that soundtrack conveys is about as uncanny as I've heard from a movie soundtrack (typically, multichannel music does this better but that's largely because they convey a stationary locational imaging and do that one particular perspective as three-dimensionally as possible; movies are a lot harder because the location within the scene is always changing).

If the surrounds sound too aggressive to you, I suggest that you make three adjustments to your system.

-First, position the speakers so that the front speakers are no more than 30 degrees off center, and the surround speakers are about 110 degrees off center (this would be slightly behind a typical sofa, with your head facing at about 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock). The surrounds should be elevated about 2' above ear level and pointed directly at one another NOT directly into the listening position (this is what Dolby recommends for systems used with both multichannel movies and music).

-Second, measure the distance that the speakers are from the listening position. If any of the speakers are closer to or farther from the listening position than the others, then you need to change the delay timing. A rule of thumb is to increase or decrease the delay timing by 1ms for every 1 foot difference. Incorrect delay timing will make some sounds seem overly abrupt.

-Third, use a SPL meter to check the levels for all of the speakers. All of the speakers should be set to an identical level when playing a test tone. If the levels are incorrect, then it destroys the imaging make the speakers sound like point sources rather than blend together as a cohesive unit.

[eqm]

I think Terrence covered this point very well. It's precisely about how the soundtrack conveys the point of view and the sounds that surround it. The reason why I recommended Master and Commander is because with a properly calibrated and positioned speaker setup, the sense of space and location that soundtrack conveys is about as uncanny as I've heard from a movie soundtrack (typically, multichannel music does this better but that's largely because they convey a stationary locational imaging and do that one particular perspective as three-dimensionally as possible; movies are a lot harder because the location within the scene is always changing).

If the surrounds sound too aggressive to you, I suggest that you make three adjustments to your system.

-First, position the speakers so that the front speakers are no more than 30 degrees off center, and the surround speakers are about 110 degrees off center (this would be slightly behind a typical sofa, with your head facing at about 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock). The surrounds should be elevated about 2' above ear level and pointed directly at one another NOT directly into the listening position (this is what Dolby recommends for systems used with both multichannel movies and music).

-Second, measure the distance that the speakers are from the listening position. If any of the speakers are closer to or farther from the listening position than the others, then you need to change the delay timing. A rule of thumb is to increase or decrease the delay timing by 1ms for every 1 foot difference. Incorrect delay timing will make some sounds seem overly abrupt.

-Third, use a SPL meter to check the levels for all of the speakers. All of the speakers should be set to an identical level when playing a test tone. If the levels are incorrect, then it destroys the imaging make the speakers sound like point sources rather than blend together as a cohesive unit.

delays, spl, and distances have all been setup for a LOOOOOOOONG time...i know EXACTLY what you guys are referring to with the POV mixing...i'm talking about the shot where you see both ships up front and still hear cannon shots from the back...does that clarify a little better? i'll have to revisit over the next couple of days to find the exact point in the movie. overall, i thought the sound in the movie was excellent; certainly better than almost anything else in my 500+ dvd library . it's just that one, single POV error that i remember noticing on my first viewing. anyway, i'll watch it again and let you know exact point to watch for.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Thanks Sir Double TT for all that great information. The width of my room is almost 14 feet wide. When using di-pole speakers in 5.1 my room feels like it is 40 feet wide. When I used center rear speakers in 5.1+1 my room felt like it was 8 feet wide. I would have thought 14 feet wide would have been a good situation for the center rear speakers, maybe 20 feet would be about right. You know I was really beginning to think it was my ex/es decoder in my Denon, never did I think that my room was not wide enough. I did know that if your couch was already against the back wall things would not work but I have about 11 feet behind me so with that I thought everything should have been perfect, I was wrong. Thanks again.

Cam,

I personally don't think 14ft is wide enough. My room is 14ft wide, and I just do not need EX. I can sit exactly in between my bipoles and hear the EX signal quite clearly without the speaker.

When you find the soundfield collapsing as you describe, this is usually an indication that speakers are not well matched. They probably have different frequency responses that causes one to overpower the other at certain frequencies.

[cam]

Sir Double T, makes me wonder how many people out there have a sweet 5.1+1 system yet stuffed into an inferior room and have convinced themselves that it is better and there is nothing that could convince them otherwise.