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  1. #1
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    SACD/DVD-Audio.....or Just Stick with Standard 2 Channel Stereo?

    It's time for another one of THESE discussions in here....

    I recently relocated and with my cherished home theater system I boxed away my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck (the model escapes my mind offhand, but it wasnt progressive scan, believe it or not).....at any rate, I purchased this deck THINKING I was going to buy into the DVD Audio format at some point.....well, many years later, still with the same DVD player, I have not bought into the format and STILL seem VERY satisfied with standard stereo CD; in fact, MOST of the titlles that are released on SACD and DVD-Audio are not even ones I would buy.....SOME, but not most....

    So, I wonder......being that MOST of my listening is done in the car using custom-made CD-R compilation mixes I burned myself on my Marantz DR700 CD recorder from different albums or off of CD singles, is it WORTH it for someone like me to buy into DVD Audio or SACD and begin replacing all my CD titles ---- I mean, thats a near impossible task, given my collection numbers which are astronomical; I wouldnt financially be able to do it....

    Are some of you finding standard CD to still be "okay" for when listening in standard two channel stereo mode on your amps or receivers, as I prefer? Is it absolutely NECESSARY that we upgrade to DVD Audio and/or SACD decks or are standard CD changers/players doing alright in most people's systems right now?

    This multichannel music bug upgrade just hasnt bitten me yet --- I seem to prefer my music in two channel stereo when at home, and in the car, well, you know.....there are four to six speakers surrounding me anyway......I like to reserve "multichannel" for film and DVD watching, as Im ALWAYS searching for DVD titles with DTS soundtracks on them.....but for audio, is there anyone else that shares the passion for good, old fashioned stereo CDs and stereo mode when doing at-home listening? Are we missing out on something MASSIVE without DVD Audio or SACD?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    It's time for another one of THESE discussions in here....

    I recently relocated and with my cherished home theater system I boxed away my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck (the model escapes my mind offhand, but it wasnt progressive scan, believe it or not).....at any rate, I purchased this deck THINKING I was going to buy into the DVD Audio format at some point.....well, many years later, still with the same DVD player, I have not bought into the format and STILL seem VERY satisfied with standard stereo CD; in fact, MOST of the titlles that are released on SACD and DVD-Audio are not even ones I would buy.....SOME, but not most....

    So, I wonder......being that MOST of my listening is done in the car using custom-made CD-R compilation mixes I burned myself on my Marantz DR700 CD recorder from different albums or off of CD singles, is it WORTH it for someone like me to buy into DVD Audio or SACD and begin replacing all my CD titles ---- I mean, thats a near impossible task, given my collection numbers which are astronomical; I wouldnt financially be able to do it....

    Are some of you finding standard CD to still be "okay" for when listening in standard two channel stereo mode on your amps or receivers, as I prefer? Is it absolutely NECESSARY that we upgrade to DVD Audio and/or SACD decks or are standard CD changers/players doing alright in most people's systems right now?

    This multichannel music bug upgrade just hasnt bitten me yet --- I seem to prefer my music in two channel stereo when at home, and in the car, well, you know.....there are four to six speakers surrounding me anyway......I like to reserve "multichannel" for film and DVD watching, as Im ALWAYS searching for DVD titles with DTS soundtracks on them.....but for audio, is there anyone else that shares the passion for good, old fashioned stereo CDs and stereo mode when doing at-home listening? Are we missing out on something MASSIVE without DVD Audio or SACD?
    I have heard a few multi-channel recordings that I like more than 2 channel. But only a few, and the two channel still sounded very good as well. With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD. As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car.
    There was a thread that argued both sides of this a couple of months back. And when I say "argued", I mean they were fighting big time. Both sides made some good points. The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings. B: Have to spend mega bucks on high end surround speakers. (seems that some people would rather spend $20k on two speakers than $70k on 7. Or they could spend the $20k on 7 but not get the same quality for each.
    Anyway, it wasn't clear to me who won that fight.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  3. #3
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    I hear you Michael, but can you clear these few things up for me, please?

    "With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD."

    What do you mean by this-----did you mean for any given CD?

    "As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car."

    What do you mean here when you say record your "DVD"s for the car-----you mean record your standard two channel "CD-R"s? Thats what I do too, making custom mixed CD-Rs for the car......but is that what you meant because you said "DVD"s......

    "The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings"

    THIS is what I am worried about, being that I already have a surround set up and would only need to buy the SACD deck and the software titles......but is it worth it?

  4. #4
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    I hear you Michael, but can you clear these few things up for me, please?

    "With that said, I'd rather have the choice to pick out the format I like better for any given DVD."

    What do you mean by this-----did you mean for any given CD?

    "As for the car, I like to record my DVD's onto a std 2 channel CD. I leave those in the car."

    What do you mean here when you say record your "DVD"s for the car-----you mean record your standard two channel "CD-R"s? Thats what I do too, making custom mixed CD-Rs for the car......but is that what you meant because you said "DVD"s......

    "The 2 channel advocates don't want to A: Throw out all of their old recordings"

    THIS is what I am worried about, being that I already have a surround set up and would only need to buy the SACD deck and the software titles......but is it worth it?
    I have some DVD recordings of music. Like live recordings and videos. Most of these have a choice to play back on 2 channel, DD or DTS. When I record a CD for the car I select 2 channel, My CD recorder only gets the audio portion from my Yammie so it has no problem recording.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I have some DVD recordings of music. Like live recordings and videos. Most of these have a choice to play back on 2 channel, DD or DTS. When I record a CD for the car I select 2 channel, My CD recorder only gets the audio portion from my Yammie so it has no problem recording.
    Oh, I see......I didnt get what you meant at first......

    Jeez, and who left which brain at home today?? LOL. Looks like it was me........

  6. #6
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    nah

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    Oh, I see......I didnt get what you meant at first......

    Jeez, and who left which brain at home today?? LOL. Looks like it was me........
    After I read what I wrote it was easy for me to see how it made little sense without the explanation. I tend to leave out the details when I'm writing sometimes.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    After I read what I wrote it was easy for me to see how it made little sense without the explanation. I tend to leave out the details when I'm writing sometimes.
    No biggie......and whats your take on whether or not standard two channel common CD is "okay" for people like me who enjoy multichannel more for cinema watching----do you agree that standard CDs that are still being sold are just as good for the most part for two channel music listening (although I know SACD is supposed to sound WICKEDLY better in two channel than standard CD)?

    Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Like I said, I have a Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck that I bought with the intentions of using to get into DVD Audio and it just never happened.....Im more hooked on multichannel CINEMA --- that is DVD Video --- than I am on multichannel MUSIC; to me, music sounds best coming from two speakers in stereo in front of you, where a band would normally sit and play for you.......

  8. #8
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexmark3200
    No biggie......and whats your take on whether or not standard two channel common CD is "okay" for people like me who enjoy multichannel more for cinema watching----do you agree that standard CDs that are still being sold are just as good for the most part for two channel music listening (although I know SACD is supposed to sound WICKEDLY better in two channel than standard CD)?

    Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Like I said, I have a Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck that I bought with the intentions of using to get into DVD Audio and it just never happened.....Im more hooked on multichannel CINEMA --- that is DVD Video --- than I am on multichannel MUSIC; to me, music sounds best coming from two speakers in stereo in front of you, where a band would normally sit and play for you.......
    I will probably deal with this change the same way that I dealt with the changes in the 70's. 8 track was what was in. I had 100's of them. Recorded my LP's and made best of this and that tapes. In comes the new casset tapes. Now in high bias so the quality was better. Get rid of my 8 tracks? No way! Eventually I added a casset player/recorder to my system. For a while I used both. Started to notice how much better the cassets were. Still, I had some old 8 tracks that couldn't be replaced. In the end, the 8 tracks disapeared. Try to buy one now at a music store. HAHAHA

    Change the names above to CD, DVD, SACD or anything else that comes along. In the end, all things change. Out with the old and in with the new. The new becomes old and gets replaced again. We buy the new equipment. Run both for a while, and then the old fades away into history.

    I was and am a big fan of the band Rush. I bought every 8 track they made. Then I replaced them with every record they made. Then I replaced those with every CD they made. Will music quality ever top out? Who knows.

    Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Not for me. I will wait for now. It may fall away the same way that quad did. Remember quad? How about Beta? Let's see if it catches on first. Then I'll start replacing again, again.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I will probably deal with this change the same way that I dealt with the changes in the 70's. 8 track was what was in. I had 100's of them. Recorded my LP's and made best of this and that tapes. In comes the new casset tapes. Now in high bias so the quality was better. Get rid of my 8 tracks? No way! Eventually I added a casset player/recorder to my system. For a while I used both. Started to notice how much better the cassets were. Still, I had some old 8 tracks that couldn't be replaced. In the end, the 8 tracks disapeared. Try to buy one now at a music store. HAHAHA

    Change the names above to CD, DVD, SACD or anything else that comes along. In the end, all things change. Out with the old and in with the new. The new becomes old and gets replaced again. We buy the new equipment. Run both for a while, and then the old fades away into history.

    I was and am a big fan of the band Rush. I bought every 8 track they made. Then I replaced them with every record they made. Then I replaced those with every CD they made. Will music quality ever top out? Who knows.

    Is the jump into DVD Audio or SACD UTTERLY NECESSARY right now? Not for me. I will wait for now. It may fall away the same way that quad did. Remember quad? How about Beta? Let's see if it catches on first. Then I'll start replacing again, again.
    I guess this is the most definitve answer we're gonna get on this topic ---- and you are right ---- just wait and see, as we did with VHS to DVD, which was WORTH the upgrade, and we all did it ---- we'll have to see if this upgrade to multichannel music is going to just "come as natural" as that did......thanks for the peace of mind!

  10. #10
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    2-Channel CD all the way. When it came time to get a nice DVD player for my HDTV I figured I'd get a universal player should either/both of the formats take off.

    Two years on and I've got a handful of titles in both formats but, like you, the majority of the stuff available just isn't my cup of tea. Both formats have lost support from the majors and DualDisc absorbed all of their (the record companies) interest. It's a sketchy format at best and, IMO, is unlikely to be around 5 years from now.

    By 2010 it will be:

    1) Good old CD still
    2) Hi-Rez downloads
    3) A new optical disc format that includes both hi-rez audio and video.

    Bill

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillB
    2-Channel CD all the way. When it came time to get a nice DVD player for my HDTV I figured I'd get a universal player should either/both of the formats take off.

    Two years on and I've got a handful of titles in both formats but, like you, the majority of the stuff available just isn't my cup of tea. Both formats have lost support from the majors and DualDisc absorbed all of their (the record companies) interest. It's a sketchy format at best and, IMO, is unlikely to be around 5 years from now.

    By 2010 it will be:

    1) Good old CD still
    2) Hi-Rez downloads
    3) A new optical disc format that includes both hi-rez audio and video.

    Bill
    Thank you for your thoughts, Bill......so, you are DEFINITELY an advocate for 2 channel CD that is still popular and available everywhere then?

  12. #12
    BooBs are elitist jerks shokhead's Avatar
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    CD's are more mainstream and multi-channel is more specilized for people like us on these forums. 16-25 could care less about multi-channel. So SACD and DVD-A will take even longer to catch on but better titles would sure get them going faster. Another way they will get going will be multi-channel players in cars.
    Look & Listen

  13. #13
    JSE
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    You will not be able to replace your currect collection of CDs with DVD-A nor SACD. There are only a handfull of titles out their and they tend to be "classic" albums for the most part. Zep, Floyd, Yes, Metallica, etc. There are some newer titles released but they are few compared to standard CDs.

    Take a look at Best Buy and CC selections, they are getting smaller. This will be the nail in the coffin for these formats. I give them another 3 to 5 years in a niche market.

    I have a few DVD-A titles and they are impressive compared to my CDs. If I have a DVD-A title, I will grab it over my CD title. I must say I really enjoy DVD-A, it's just never caught on with the masses. And that is who record companies listen to. Not us "Audiophiles" who represent a small fraction of the market.

    If you have a DVD-A player, then I would go ahead and pick up a few title just to try out but like I said, it's a dying technology.

    JSE

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    "CD's are more mainstream and multi-channel is more specilized for people like us on these forums. "

    Well, I consider myself an audiophile-in-training (just an enthusiast level right now), and I enjoy these boards, and I still enjoy 2 channel CDs.....

    "16-25 could care less about multi-channel."

    You mean 16 to 25 year OLDS? That is true.......they run into the CD store and buy that latest Jay Z CD with no cares about the quality......however, I find that when I buy standard, ordinary stereo CD, it simply sounds just fine to me.....especially in the car.

    "So SACD and DVD-A will take even longer to catch on but better titles would sure get them going faster."

    I agree; there just arent enough titles for my liking or my listening/recording/hobby habits, which include gathering rare promo CD singles of bands and making a mixed CD-R of music; this is why SACD and DVD Audio hasnt caught on for me yet.

    "Another way they will get going will be multi-channel players in cars."

    There are a few makes that are out that already have 5.1 surround systems ---- Acura has the new TL and RL sedans which have 5.1 surround audio systems, but, to me, in reality, a car environment is difficult to comment on because dont forget --- you ALREADY HAVE the surrounding speakers in a car system --- the two up front, the two in back, and some tweeters on the dash (at least my car has them)......although when playing STANDARD CD through a normal car stereo the delivery is not DISCRETE DOLBY 5.1 SURROUND, it is still "surrounding" you with sound.......so in the car Im not really worried about this experience of "multichannel"..........

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    "You will not be able to replace your currect collection of CDs with DVD-A nor SACD. There are only a handfull of titles out their and they tend to be "classic" albums for the most part. Zep, Floyd, Yes, Metallica, etc. There are some newer titles released but they are few compared to standard CDs. "

    Whew......a load off my mind, seriously......although those are some GOOD bands you mention there of which I have many of their CDs......damn........

    "Take a look at Best Buy and CC selections, they are getting smaller. This will be the nail in the coffin for these formats. I give them another 3 to 5 years in a niche market."

    Serious? I hadnt taken notice when I went to the stores......interesting.......

    "I have a few DVD-A titles and they are impressive compared to my CDs. If I have a DVD-A title, I will grab it over my CD title. I must say I really enjoy DVD-A, it's just never caught on with the masses. And that is who record companies listen to. Not us "Audiophiles" who represent a small fraction of the market."

    True.

    "If you have a DVD-A player, then I would go ahead and pick up a few title just to try out but like I said, it's a dying technology. "

    Well, J, once I unpack my stuff and get into a new place of my own, I'll do what you suggest and try some DVD Audio discs; I guess I'll keep my Panasonic player then after all, even though its not progressive scan and doesnt upconvert to the higher res specs, which is what I wanted to upgrade my DVD player for..........

    But perhaps you are right ---- since I have it, I may as well hook it up and see what DVD Audio is all about.....

    JSE[/QUOTE]

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    You mean 16 to 25 year OLDS? That is true.......they run into the CD store and buy that latest Jay Z CD with no cares about the quality......however, I find that when I buy standard, ordinary stereo CD, it simply sounds just fine to me.....especially in the car.
    You're lucky if they even do that (most download).

    If a favorite album of yours is available on DVD-Audio go ahead and try it out. I would NOT buy a DVD-Audio/SACD player thinking you're going to replace the majority of your CD collection because it likely won't happen.

    I'm VERY happy with CD sound quality. I do appreciate the occasional HiRez release that comes along that I'm interested in but that's rare.

    Bill

  17. #17
    JSE
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillB
    You're lucky if they even do that (most download).

    Download/Mp3 has almost single handedly killed hi rez. Most consumers can download an album or song and then burn it for use in their home system, office stereo, bedroom stereo, car system, discman, computer or whatever. Low quality but very versatile which is what most people want.

    Hi Rez? Hi quality but you can only play it on your home system's DVD-A/SACD player and that is it. You can't really burn it, download it or anything else.

    It ashame because I really think it's a superior format when done right.

    JSE

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    Thanks for the replies, guys; I guess Im not going to run out and buy an SACD deck right now, then; in the meantime, I will, as JSE suggested, hook up my Panasonic DVD Audio/Video deck once I get settled in my own place, and experiment with a disc or two to see how I like it......

    And JSE, THAT was my main concern also with these new multichannel hi res formats; that the RECORDING of them just isnt available yet------one of my favorite hobbies was to make my own custom burned CD-R mixed compilation discs on my Marantz CD recorder, and you just cant do that with SACD or DVD-Audio (RECORD, I mean).......

  19. #19
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    REPLACE all my recordings? NOT!

    i learned that lesson long ago. keep everything. mc can be derived from DPL on the 2ch sources. i am surrounded with dynaquad passive surround only. all sources surround me, even the fm. i did not buy a 6ch pre/pro to accommodate sacd. nor will i.

    if i pulled the 8track wollensak out of the garage and lubed and re-belted it, i would be surrounded by that too. sometimes technology outdoes itself, mch is one of those areas. the need for LF (bass) management is a good example.

    i have numerous duplicate recordings in different format and am not dumping ANY.
    ...regards...tr

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    rebuy cds no thanks

    i have gear to play all three formats.i own about a dozen sacd,one dvd-audio and about 1000 cds.quality wise my cd player is far above the other two players,so cd is my main focus.i have borroed a few dvd audios from friends and to be honest found the quality a mixed bag.most were not that impressive.i have had better results from sacd but most are 2 channel only.the only one i found really worth multi channel playback was dark side of the moon(made for multi channel).imho nothing beats a good cd player,solid speakers and good power.maybe when the new high def audio is common high rez will have a chance.

    bill

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    frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment

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    "imho nothing beats a good cd player,solid speakers and good power.maybe when the new high def audio is common high rez will have a chance."

    I agree pretty much with everything you say here, Bill.....in my opinion, nothing beats sitting down in front of two speakers with a two channel stereo CD played in a good CD player (or changer, as in the case of MY Marantz CC67) and enjoying music in two channel --- or, as another member suggested, MAYBE using my A/V receiver's PRO LOGIC II MUSIC mode for certain discs, such as live concerts, which pushes the crowd noises into the surrounds better. But I agree --- buy and leave standard stereo CD alone for now and watch your films in multichannel glory.

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    "frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded"

    Agreed; although there are people like me who are using our surround multi-channel receivers ONLY IN STEREO mode when playing back CDs; I didnt buy my surround setup mainly for music, I use it mainly for DVDs and FILM PLAYBACK --- for serious music listening, I think it can be said and agreed upon here that TWO CHANNEL is the way to go --- whether it be through an integrated amp, stereo receiver or two channel power amp and a good CD player/changer; it seems to be the concensus of this board that multichannel music is not going to last as long as conventional CD has or will.

    But for music listening, I usually use my receiver's STEREO mode, which I believe makes the music sound best on ordinary CD recordings.

    "music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference"

    Well, I have had some success with using my Onkyo receiver's PRO LOGIC II MUSIC mode for certain CDs, such as live concerts, which puts the crowd noises into the surrounds, but thats it, and as you say below:

    "i find it to be less enjoyable that way"

    "with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment"

    Interesting point. So you dont see a need for DVD Audio or SACD over CD?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanpreusser
    frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment
    Just because you have a surround setup doesnt mean you cant use it as a straight 2ch. So you dont like a live concert? Its not L&R coming at you. A music hall is made to be filled with music,not stopping at you.
    Look & Listen

  25. #25
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    music in surround

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanpreusser
    frankly i think people that buy a surround sound system mainly for music are retarded.....music is recorded with only left and right channle so spitting it out in the center rear left etc. makes no difference....in fact i find it to be less enjoyable that way. with dvd audio, if u go any higher in quality than cd, i find it hard to tell a difference. the only difference in sound quality will come from your receiver/amp and speakers anyway.....quality of the music only goes so far then comes your equitment
    i dont advocate the mixes where instruments are placed behind the listener BUT used properly, surround for music will extract the natural ambience of the recording venue. my favorite example is dire straits-on the night-a LIVE recording, exemplifies the 'you are there' effect that ambience extraction can impart to a good recording.

    the dts version of the eagles-hell freezes over-is the epitome of the surround idiocy of having the listener within the band. sorry, cant enjoy that.

    those that dont have dynaquad probably DO have DPL which is a derivative of dynaquad only with logic steering. with the rear level set to barely be perceptible on a conventional stereo recording, live recordings will come ALIVE.

    the DPL will work on any source so being surrounded can be ubiquitous, at my house it is.
    ...regards...tr

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    By Brian68 in forum General Audio
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-13-2004, 06:40 PM

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