recommendations for CD player

[blackraven]

Raj, we have a lot of the same tastes in music. I like a lot of female vocal Jazz but I'm into Blue's, RR, acoustic and some classical. I listen to a lot less RR than I use to. With your taste in music I can see why you want a tube sound. Frenchmon is right about the Marantz reference player being a great match for your tastes. Mr. P also makes a great point about sticking with CJ although I have not heard a CJ CDP. I have heard $10K Ayres CDP on an all Ayres system and Magnepan 3.6's and I did not think it was worth the money. The cost benefit ratio just wasn't there.

Here's a review of the Marantz

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/...arantzSACD.htm

The 2 reviews below are actually for the SA-7s1 not the sa-11s2

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

[Mingus]

Raj, with that lineup I can tell you are really enjoying your music.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, would the Electrocompanient be an option for Raj?

The thing is $6k opens a large field of good players. I only heard Esoteric once but the system it was in I really couldn't tell if it warranted it's price tag. Most retail for Esoteric is over $6k but I recently have seen some universal players at Spearitsound near that price USD.

Electrocompanient is another good one. Its SS, open and detailed....I would not say warm, but I've listened to it with Audio Research Corp and McIntosh both tubes and it did sound very nice.

[frenchmon]

Raj, I converted my MV60's to mono, I have the EL34 version. I understand the SE has a bit more slam and control but have been told the trade off is a bit of midrange magic. I have questioned my CJ connection about other CJ amps, they admit the LP's would remove even more veiling but always say something to the effect "it wouldn't be as musical as the MV60". This leads me to sort of believe the MV60 is a special amp in their line up. Why would they even hint to discourage a possible future sale, that's why I trust them so much, that and the fact they've always been first class dealing with me.

I had a solid state CJ DAC, I think the PV1. It was very good for it's age, displaying an excellent sound stage. It was not neutral though, it had a very warm dark character to it. It would probably be very nice for your type of music but you could definitely hear it's softening of things on Rock or more energetic music styles. You do have me wondering though, now that I have other speakers I need to put the Audio Note DAC back on the system to see what happens. I typically liked solid state sources through my CJ gear for a certain balance. Only certain solid state gear though, I had a Krell CDP which didn't seem to have the synergy I was looking for.

At the end of the day though you should buy the brands available to you that would allow for a return if you weren't happy with it's result.

Peabody...if those where my CJ amps...you best believe I would have rolled those tubes by now. Don't you still have the stock tubes in those babies?

[Mr Peabody]

Yes Sir, stock tubes, CJ says they selected them for the best sound. They come with a good tube. A set of tubes wouldn't be cheap and what if I didn't like the result or it was worse. I like the sound of my tube gear but I'm not really a tinker. I'd be better off with solid state but haven't heard anything to sway me to switch back yet. The T+A comes close but I can't afford what I would want. If I had one of those auto-bias amps that would be more tempting to play with tubes.

[frenchmon]

Yes Sir, stock tubes, CJ says they selected them for the best sound. They come with a good tube. A set of tubes wouldn't be cheap and what if I didn't like the result or it was worse. I like the sound of my tube gear but I'm not really a tinker. I'd be better off with solid state but haven't heard anything to sway me to switch back yet. The T+A comes close but I can't afford what I would want. If I had one of those auto-bias amps that would be more tempting to play with tubes.

Ahwww come on Mr. P! That's no excuse...you know I know about that tree in your back yard. And CJ...best sound for who's ears? And you may have spent more on veggie pizza! Man you gotta tube roll man,mess with the sound a bit...see if we can get that sound a little more open.

[RGA]

I like the EMM Labs suggestion but the price ----

For sane money - my choice would be - not surprising - the Audio Note Dac 2.1 Signature.

I would not actually buy the 1.1 in either the DAC or the one box player. The problem is that the difference in price is not all that big and the performance jump is beyond words massive. It's an interesting line where it goes big jump, refinement improvement, big jump, refinement improvements going from 1.1 to 2.1 to 3.1 to 4.1. The 1.1 has a nice midrange but doesn't really get the bass or the upper treble - but "typically" the 1.1 would be geared for a budget and likely bright systems so a slight rolloff is not a terrible thing. But spending more on the DAC it is more likely the person has a much better set of speakers and amp so one does not want a rolloff or "aid" of lesser speakers since the speakers are likely to be superior.

The DAC 2.1 Sig is about $4,000 and you would then need a transport. AN's CD Two/II is a heavily modded Philips Pro transport but it retails for over $6k and is their entry level transport now. There may be some on the used market as some are trading up for newer upper level transports.

I would do your best to hear some of the upscale zero times oversampling and no digital and no analog filter cd players. Audio Note and Zanden are examples though the latter has an analog filter. They mark a very different and IMO better sounding alternative to everything else on the market that I have heard - for sane money. Though Zanden is much more expensive as an entry point. I like Emm Labs but the player was over $20k.

I would listen to this and then compare everything else off of it. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...tedac21sig.htm

[E-Stat]

I like the EMM Labs suggestion but the price ----

You can regularly find CDSAs on Audiogon for around $5k.

For sane money - my choice would be - not surprising - the Audio Note Dac 2.1 Signature.

You recommend AN? Who knew?

rw

[devuonoste]

If I had that kind of money to throw around I'd still spring for a great DAC combined with a solid transport.

+1

Totally agree with Poultrygeist.

[Mr Peabody]

Just curious why you all would recommend a separate DAC & transport? Sonically, I know of no advantage and possibly disadvantages to those who believe in jitter. Although some DAC's like, Levinson for example, deal with that very well.

RGA, I agree, I put my 1.1x back in the system for a listen and compared to the T+A I felt like the 1.1x was missing information. On the other hand the 1.1x had a nice dark warmth to the background that almost made going back to the solid state unit feel a bit like adding glare. I'd like to hear a 2.1 or better. The 1.1x was an incredible match though with an EAD transport, you'd think they were built for one another.

[Raj J]

thanks for your feedback Frenchmon;

yes, i agree there is no doubt that i will like (probably enjoy!) the marantz reference series since 99% of my listening tastes are in the jazz genre. now the only problem is as i mentioned, finding a highend dealer or importer who specializes in marantz. I have emailed the so called marantz importer in sydney, but never got a reply. they don't have any good marantz products, just a handful of receivers and very low end stuff... doesn't really help.

i think for as long as i am in australia, marantz is out of the question. also in the country if you were to import hi-fi/electronics specially highend and a brand / product that is not sold within the country, the extra duty fees and customs charges go through the roof! the marantz would end up costing over 10 grand! and this is not the road i want to go...

now i feel very sad! anyway will have to start looking for the next best thing...
any other suggestions other than marantz?
cheers, RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, I converted my MV60's to mono, I have the EL34 version. I understand the SE has a bit more slam and control but have been told the trade off is a bit of midrange magic. I have questioned my CJ connection about other CJ amps, they admit the LP's would remove even more veiling but always say something to the effect "it wouldn't be as musical as the MV60". This leads me to sort of believe the MV60 is a special amp in their line up. Why would they even hint to discourage a possible future sale, that's why I trust them so much, that and the fact they've always been first class dealing with me.

I had a solid state CJ DAC, I think the PV1. It was very good for it's age, displaying an excellent sound stage. It was not neutral though, it had a very warm dark character to it. It would probably be very nice for your type of music but you could definitely hear it's softening of things on Rock or more energetic music styles. You do have me wondering though, now that I have other speakers I need to put the Audio Note DAC back on the system to see what happens. I typically liked solid state sources through my CJ gear for a certain balance. Only certain solid state gear though, I had a Krell CDP which didn't seem to have the synergy I was looking for.

At the end of the day though you should buy the brands available to you that would allow for a return if you weren't happy with it's result.

hey Peabody!

yes, yes! c-j claims this to be true and it is true!!! do not change your MV60 unless you were extra weathly and had dollars to throw around...

i have heard the lp70s, lp66s and even the lp125 which i nearly bought! until i replaced the 6550c tubes with the KT120's it beats the LP125 out of the park! that golden c-j glow of warmth sound is lacking big time in the LP series of amps, other than their current top-of -the line ART power amp which retails for nearly 30grand!

the golden special c-j sound was only meant for true music lovers who know about c-j and what it stands for. then the company had to introduce new items and capture new audience otherwise they would have goone broke with all these chinese knock offs that are getting better by the day...

as a result they put out this new LP series which stands for liner pentode. the amps sound ok! and that's about it! they are not orginal c-j sound amps. hence a lot of it has to do with the internal parts as well as manyuse teflon caps which take a dam long time to warm up... anyway at the end the day these new amps do sound GOOD, don't get me wrong, but it is very different and it is definitely NOT the orginla c-j warmth. it caters to a different audience who may have not ventured on c-j before.

i will tell you this though! if you ever get rid of your mv60, you will miss it the day it leaves your hands! the mv60 is a true c-j classic!it is an awesome amp, and probably for the money the best i ever had! there was one other amp that was also dam fine about the same time the mv60 came out and that was the premier 140. another very fine c-j classic sound with plenty of guts to drive almost anything! at the time the importer had one, i couldn't afford the premier 140, i was a student then, now i can and they don't make them any more,. but the mv60 is a true classic no doubt.

that's why c-j told you that the LP series isn't that great because they know you already love the original c-j sound...
keep happy peabody! your mv 60 is a rare gem! you don't know it.
cheers, RJ

[Raj J]

thanks for all your advice and message folks!
seems like i will need to do some soul searching in the arena of digital playback before dumping and dollars, and yes I will do that.

i won't certainly just go and purchase something fancy, i've done that before and got my ass burnt! three times! don't we ever learn. now i am wiser, married and have a 9 yeard old daughter, so it's high time i grew up eh? nearly reaching 40 and my hearing is still good though... ha!

i have an idea of what's out there thanks to all of you. only problem is Australia does not carry all the brands you have mentioned. and as i have stated before they rip you off if you were to import directly rather than through an importer. so i need to really sit down and take some time off this venture and look around more closely.

but one thing of sure is that before i buy, i will consult all of you.
many thanks to all and take care.
have a good week and enjoy your music!
cheers, RJ

[blackraven]

Raj, here are a few dealers-

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Marantz-S...-/230620844322

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/buy/mar...d-player/SA7S1

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/shop/hi...d-players/1204

[Mr Peabody]

Raj, thanks for the feedback. I always wondered about the LP line. What you say makes sense to me, even though the CT-6 is a noticeably better preamp than my previous PV14ls when I upgraded there was a bit of the old synergy missing. It's like sometimes gear may not be the best you can get but for some reason it hits a spot in you.

If you order off line from some one like www.musicdirect.com do you get hit with extra duties? I was thinking I saw something on their site about discount on foreign shipping. If it was cost effective they offer 30 day return and carry some high end gear like BAT. I haven't looked at what all they carry in some time.

[Raj J]

Its also nice to see I have a deep passion for the same music as you....Besides having just about all the artist you mentioned above in my musical library...

I also just recently purchased first printings of Roberto Flack on vinyl... "First Take", "Chapter Two" , "Killing Me Softly" and "Born to Love (with Peabo Bryson)"

Happy Listening.

frenchmon

hey Frenchmon,
that roberta flack on vinyl must be awesome! i can only imagine...
aparently the preamp I'm using, the c-j ACT2, is supposed to have a pristine control over vinyls provided you hook up a highend phone preamp, since the ACT2 is only a line stage version.

I have listened to the ACT2 on vinyl just before I took ownership of it, simply outstanding! the lp was from Cassandra Wilson "Glamored" wonderful reproduction.

my current vacuum tube cdp also has a very warm approach, and a non-digital glare compared to other players, and I have placed it right next to the Qx4 so this helps by a far margin. The lp as a source would be the way to go, but too many cd's have ventured me in that direction. therefore to have a complete system for the long term I would like to someday get hold of a very good vacuum tube player that is far more superior to the one I have, and intend to keep it for as long as it will last!

I feel that I have completed my journey in my audio quest for that live natural sound & the closest approach - mainly thanks to Quad ESL's and c-j gear. it's high time I sat down and started listening to some good music for once!

cheers! RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, we have a lot of the same tastes in music. I like a lot of female vocal Jazz but I'm into Blue's, RR, acoustic and some classical. I listen to a lot less RR than I use to. With your taste in music I can see why you want a tube sound. Frenchmon is right about the Marantz reference player being a great match for your tastes. Mr. P also makes a great point about sticking with CJ although I have not heard a CJ CDP. I have heard $10K Ayres CDP on an all Ayres system and Magnepan 3.6's and I did not think it was worth the money. The cost benefit ratio just wasn't there.

Here's a review of the Marantz

http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/...arantzSACD.htm

The 2 reviews below are actually for the SA-7s1 not the sa-11s2

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

http://www.marantz-sa-11s2.co.uk/

Thanks for those links mate, much appreciated.
yes, it certainly does seem the marantz is a great unit no doubt, but listening to one is not going to happen here in Austrlia, unless I was to fly over to singapore or somewhere...

I do not want to purchase anything vis on-line for that kind of money. no way! I have been burnt here pretty bad with on-line transactions, it's really not funny! once they have your card details your done for.

those reviews were quite good actaully, and I never really liked the Ayre sound myself either. they are dam expensive and don't seem to be able to compete with similar products in the price category they are trying to pitch at.

the ones that have been making systems for decades and are the closest to the real thing will be the best to go with. there are new entrants into the world of highend audio, but they still have a short road to get there... for me it is c-j & Quad, and Audio research & Apogee Ribbons (apogees no longer made of course).

cheers and have a good one!
RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, with that lineup I can tell you are really enjoying your music.

hi there Mingus,

yes certainly am enjoying the music; sometimes to the point I forget there is a wifey & kiddo lurking around!...

my late night sessions start from 11pm to nearly 4am during the weekends. find it very difficult to get about next day fire on all cylinders. feels like a worn out sock! but I've cut down on the listening hours from 11pm to 3am. the wifey doesn't mind it, but usually quacks like a mad duck if she doesn't get her schedule right the following day...

good thing is though my daughter is starting to like Chris Botti and George Benson... although she still prefers Taylor Swift & highschool musical. this is a good sign, as I can slowly get her on my side and then all will be naturally well!

cheers & thanks for your message!
RJ

[Raj J]

Raj, here are a few dealers-

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Marantz-S...-/230620844322

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/buy/mar...d-player/SA7S1

http://www.aussiehifi.com.au/shop/hi...d-players/1204

hey Blackraven,

I just contacted the Aussi dealer, they're based on Brisbane, Queensland. up north from Melbourne, long way there...
anyway, the price is beyong my budget at the moment, they quoted nearly 12 grand! that would be right since the time of import from the US was at 6 grand plus, generally equates to nearly double that. altough now the AUD$ is on par with the USD$ then the price would be far better.

but spending 12 grand on a cdp is a big expenditure, unless it was a speaker system or amplification, then I don't mind. will have to pass on the marantz.

well, i'll keep looking anyway.
thanks, RJ

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know why any one would bring gear in with that ridiculous amount of duty. $12k for a $6k player is crazy.

[RGA]

Just curious why you all would recommend a separate DAC & transport? Sonically, I know of no advantage and possibly disadvantages to those who believe in jitter. Although some DAC's like, Levinson for example, deal with that very well.

RGA, I agree, I put my 1.1x back in the system for a listen and compared to the T+A I felt like the 1.1x was missing information. On the other hand the 1.1x had a nice dark warmth to the background that almost made going back to the solid state unit feel a bit like adding glare. I'd like to hear a 2.1 or better. The 1.1x was an incredible match though with an EAD transport, you'd think they were built for one another.

Interesting - hearing the new 1.1x one box player it sounded like it had more information through the midband than any other player in the store. Classe, Meridian, Bryston, Sim Audio. My issue with it was a somewhat lighter weight bottom end and a little thinner than I would like. Other folks in the store liked it more than me. They felt it told you differences in the recordings which I agree with but it didn't really have the weight in the bass and the top end was a little rolled off while the mid treble seemed to me to be thinner. Though I still preferred the sound of it to anything in the store at the price - it just isn't "star" material. Maybe I am used to higher level AN machines.

The CD players are designed for their own level one products - such as the AX Two speakers so having deep bass weight isn't critical since the speakers don't go that low. And the thinner sound may work for their entry level push pull amps and copper wired gear.

It sounded pretty good with the Sonus Faber Toy and Dynaudio floorstanders through Sim Audio's top integrated. Still for the money - I would prefer to go with one of their better DACs and transport (can get good ones second hand) and it will go farther.

The 2.1 balanced Sig is for me the entry level of what CD Sound is capable of. I hear the over processing and digitized sound of CD players more now than I ever did before. Filters, oversampling, error correction is the amplifier equivalent of negative feedback and personally I can't go back. From some reports though the AN DACs are a little more picky about transports - which is not a good thing if on a budget. But I need more experience with this report to be able to corroborate it. But a one time read pass to a DAC would logically indicate that the transport would play a greater role than normal.

[Mr Peabody]

Keep in mind my 1.1x is some years old, it came out before AN began to offer kits.

I found I didn't much care for Sonus Faber, they aren't bad I just don't like the bass presentation, for a speaker of that price and rep I felt a lack of good detail in the low end. Sim Audio also seems to have a good rep but so far I have yet to be impressed. They seem to have a dry presentation similar to newer Classe.

I wonder if other listeners feel or hear like I do, for me, it's more than just frequency response etc. I tend to be sensitive to the soundstage feel or presentation, like are the instruments just dead after you hear them, do you feel any ambeient information, size, or some gear has a dark background where some seem sort of gray, some may be more transparent where I get just a feel of openness but many of those tend not to have much weight to the presentation. I should probably start another thread for this but I wonder if any one would know what I was talking about, it's like I get a feel of the soundstage along with the sound. I personally tend to like a darker background as long as there's no veiling.

[Raj J]

I don't know why any one would bring gear in with that ridiculous amount of duty. $12k for a $6k player is crazy.

yes! Peabody you can say that again...

in fact that is why no one brings in high-end electronics into Australia unless you are the importer, because of the high duty they discourage this type of transaction for individuals.

what they encourage you to do is go to your nearest local store/highend audio retailer/dealer or importer and pruchase through them, not directly from the manufacturer, hence you can do so, but be prepared to pay over %100 on duty and other fees, unless of course you can smuggle it! which is not a great idea either...

oh! by the way I have a wonderful c-j LP66s sitting in my system at the moment connected to the awesome ACT2 preamp driving my Quads. I also hooked up the LP125 for a little while and didn't like their sound at all.

here's a quick comparison of the LP66S:
1. The sound is nearly closer to that golden c-j glow sound... but does not quite get there.
2. it's quicker, lot more quieter and punchier, more oomph!
3. very smooth, non-fatiguing, listenable for endless hours...
4. doesn't have the finesse of the MV60se. similar drive since delivers 60/ch but lacks some punch and lower definition.
5. mids and highs are fine, bass is questionable - a bit loose, not as tight as the mv60 nor mv60se or mv60se using kt120 tubes.
6. takes a dam long time to run in, due to more teflon caps being used, once run in for a while does sound better...

sound of the original MV60se: - much better all round based on the points as above using 6550C tubes, far better soundstage.

sound of the MV60se with KT120 output tubes: outstanding!
a whole new level of realism, definition and palpability and incredible bass detail. driven with an ACT2, wow! the live event is happening right there in its most natural state.

I am keeping the LP66S for a while, like to see how it improves if at all..., and will do some tube rolling with KT120's just to see if it can better my current mv60se - if it does then I'll keep it!

Been running this thing in since Saturday, no significant improvement as yet, although very slightly, smoother mids & silky highs. bass pretty much the same... not tight enough.

keep you posted, cheers!
RJ
p.s.
(keep that mv60 for now, unless you were able to change tubes to KT120's they are simply outstanding tubes!) you will be impressed

[Mr Peabody]

Again, Raj, thanks for the feedback.

[Raj J]

good day mates!

just got back from a wonderful weekend ready to start the working week ahead tomorrow.
on Saturday night went to my usual night cafe for some excellent apple pie with a few coffees and there they were the awaesome trio, a small jazz trio well know in Melbourne to hit the night cafes after 8pm. we had guitar, bass, and percussions. the sound was aewsome in its most natural state and amplified to a certain degree only that was very pleasing to the ears, not overpowering at all like most live perfomances that are well over amplified to distortion...

they played everything from chris botti to luis armstrong, plus a bit of santana, and the glorious astrud gilberto. went on close to midnight and headed back home just after. turned on my system and let the ACT2 warm in nicely with the Quads, and my golly did we get a similar sound if at all a 90% soundstage to match with. listened all the way till 4am, and realized that my system has achieved the ability to play the real thing when called for. hence I thought to myself in that case why the hec am I trying to upgrade the CD player? so I have decided to keep my little Cayin vacuum tube cdp for all that it is worth and sit back any enjoy the music! plus there is nothing that I have yet to come across that beats the Cayin CD50T under 10 grand. the marantz reference - forget it folks it's out of my league. the guy in sydney (distributor for marantz ref) places only specialized orders with 50% down payment, current retail is $13 grand! that nearly double of what it sells in the USA.

therefore, I thought I'd lay off this search for a little while I start looking again towards end of year. thanks for all your suggestions and feedback it was a real insight to the world of marantz ref, lektor, & naim that I had not listened to yet. all sounded very good but were all way over 10 grand.
the time is now 11:47pm and about to hit the sack, I hear liz wright in the back ground or is she actually here... must be. till then have a good one you all!
& enjoy your music! cheers, RJ