Feanor- I'm callin you out!

[jim goulding]

The Fea of Nor- I want you to tell me, and maybe others may want to know, too, what is up with listening to music using your computer as the source? I thought I saw an old Marantz tuner on your rack (I believe it is your Denon) and that led me to peep your system where I see you are uptown on this. Dude got him an external HD, a dedicated computer, and an audiophile USB. Now, maybe this is old news around here. Maybe, I'm the only member living in a cave. But I'm bright enough to see the potential in this and you seem to be putting together things to get real high fidelity from this. Would that be correct? Is it comparable to your SACD input? Is it possible to get there? Would you consider writing an article here on your experience and recommendations?

[Feanor]

The Fea of Nor- I want you to tell me, and maybe others may want to know, too, what is up with listening to music using your computer as the source? I thought I saw an old Marantz tuner on your rack (I believe it is your Denon) and that led me to peep your system where I see you are uptown on this. Dude got him an external HD, a dedicated computer, and an audiophile USB. Now, maybe this is old news around here. Maybe, I'm the only member living in a cave. But I'm bright enough to see the potential in this and you seem to be putting together things to get real high fidelity from this. Would that be correct? Is it comparable to your SACD input? Is it possible to get there? Would you consider writing an article here on your experience and recommendations?

Hi, Jim,

My setup is really very simple. I don't have a fancy "music server"; just an old PC running standard WinXP, (not "Media Center"), and iTunes. My sound card is a USB-connected external card, specifically M-Audio's Audiophile USB. That has DAC and analog outputs but I run its digital output to a DAC, an Assemblage 1.5.
...


This diagram is a little out of date in that I sold the Sansui C-2101 and am currently looking for a budget phono preamp.

No, SACD cannot feed by way of the M-Audio; it has to go from the Sony to the Line 1 via the analog connection.

I got the dedicated computer because I was having problems with the sound coming from my laptop, specifically I got a lot of drop-outs (which sounded an awful lot like vinyl clicks & pops -- pretty insufferable I'm sure you'll agree). I tried using Foobar2000 instead of iTunes which was a bit better but didn't solve the problem.
So I got the dedicated machine: that solved problem completely.

I really don't hear any diference between the computer sound via iTunes from Apple Lossless files, and playback from my CDP, using the DAC in both cases.

I don't have an up to date photo; maybe I take one in the next few days and post it. The Marantz you saw was a 2252B receiver, since sold.

[thekid]

Sweet set-up any way you cut it.

BTW I assume you are hooked up to the net with that computer. Visiting my brother last week he turned me on to a site called Wolfgang's Vault. It may be old news to you and others here but if you love classic rock or some hard to find live concert downloads this seems to be the place.

[kexodusc]

I use the same soundcard as Feanor, and an external hard drive for all my lossless FLAC (mmmmkay a few WMA lossless and Apple Lossless files, mostly FLAC) tunes.

I don't have the external DAC though, and I only feed the optical output into (shudder) a 3 year old a/v receiver I picked up for $70. This powers two speakers I made for nearfield purposes -simple aluminum woofer/silk dome tweeter 2-way design - extremely low distortion, but not great efficiency - an accpeted trade-off given their purpose. They'd do well in small rooms as well but above a few watts of power they start to exhibit audible compression.

I also have an older machine with a M-Audio soundcard (forget the model) that's connected internally - gotta be honest here, can't hear the difference. Makes me wonder if I didn't waste some money on the external unit? That was one of those "everyone told me I should get it" situations.

All in all, it's not going to impress any old-time audiophile types, but the key in my system is obviously the speakers, where they continue to account for the vast majority of the sound quality of the system.

I did try the analog route and with my NAD 3020, but something wasn't right - might have been in my head but I think the digital connection eliminates some interference of some sort?
I must say, I outdid myself with these speakers - I wanted something that delivered at lower volumes and a 3-4 foot listening distance - they're not expensive to make but wow they sound nice at <90 dB. Can't believe I let myself suffer with those crappy H/K speakers that came with my computer

Anyway, this is my first nearfield setup and I'm quite impressed overall at how far computing has come. Just a few years ago this level of sound wouldn't have been possible. Now I suspect it will become the centerpiece a lot of people's audio setups.

I even stream music to my main HT system, and my 2-channel rig - just to see if I could. Could almost do away with my cd players....almost....

[Feanor]

Sweet set-up any way you cut it.

BTW I assume you are hooked up to the net with that computer. Visiting my brother last week he turned me on to a site called Wolfgang's Vault. It may be old news to you and others here but if you love classic rock or some hard to find live concert downloads this seems to be the place.

Yep, the computer is connected to the Internet by way of a Cat5 to my router hence a DSL connection to my ISP, (Bell Sympatico).

I listen to streamed radio quite often. My usual choice is classical at 128bps; my favorite station is WNYC.

[Feanor]

Hi, Jim,
...
I don't have an up to date photo; maybe I take one in the next few days and post it. ...

Lastest photo
...

[nightflier]

Feanor,

Before you posted the photo, I was going to say that only a computer programmer would describe his setup with a flow chart, LOL.

From the pic, the setup looks very clean, especially since the bookcase hides all the wires. BTW, is that the DAC under the M-Audio? If so, what is it sitting on?

[Feanor]

Feanor,

Before you posted the photo, I was going to say that only a computer programmer would describe his setup with a flow chart, LOL.

From the pic, the setup looks very clean, especially since the bookcase hides all the wires. BTW, is that the DAC under the M-Audio? If so, what is it sitting on?

The diagram works, n'est pas?

The speakers are about 14" out from the leading edge of the shelving, though that isn't quite clear from the photo.

Right, the DAC is beneath the M-Audio, sitting on a Belkin power filter.
...

[nightflier]

Belkin? I didn't know they were into the HT market. I know APC and TrippLite have dared, but I wonder how much cred they are getting. How's its performance?

[Feanor]

Belkin? I didn't know they were into the HT market. I know APC and TrippLite have dared, but I wonder how much cred they are getting. How's its performance?

I can't say I hear any difference in sound, but I presume it's providing protection. It also provides delayed turn on/off for components that need that, plus multiple banks of plugs seperately isolated for RFI.

I have the PureAV BF60. Here's Belkin's link; (note: it available for a lot less than the $599 MSRP) ...
http://catalog.belkin.com/PureAV_det...duct_Id=178925

...

[nightflier]

And here I thought it was an amp when I saw that fist pic. It sure does look nice with the Blue LED and silver front. I'm on the verge of buying a PS Audio Quintet ($495 msrp), and I don't really care for the power-strip-behind-the-rack-laying-on-the-floor type of power center, so the Belkin may be a worthwhile alternative.

[pixelthis]

I use the same soundcard as Feanor, and an external hard drive for all my lossless FLAC (mmmmkay a few WMA lossless and Apple Lossless files, mostly FLAC) tunes.

I don't have the external DAC though, and I only feed the optical output into (shudder) a 3 year old a/v receiver I picked up for $70. This powers two speakers I made for nearfield purposes -simple aluminum woofer/silk dome tweeter 2-way design - extremely low distortion, but not great efficiency - an accpeted trade-off given their purpose. They'd do well in small rooms as well but above a few watts of power they start to exhibit audible compression.

I also have an older machine with a M-Audio soundcard (forget the model) that's connected internally - gotta be honest here, can't hear the difference. Makes me wonder if I didn't waste some money on the external unit? That was one of those "everyone told me I should get it" situations.

All in all, it's not going to impress any old-time audiophile types, but the key in my system is obviously the speakers, where they continue to account for the vast majority of the sound quality of the system.

I did try the analog route and with my NAD 3020, but something wasn't right - might have been in my head but I think the digital connection eliminates some interference of some sort?
I must say, I outdid myself with these speakers - I wanted something that delivered at lower volumes and a 3-4 foot listening distance - they're not expensive to make but wow they sound nice at <90 dB. Can't believe I let myself suffer with those crappy H/K speakers that came with my computer

Anyway, this is my first nearfield setup and I'm quite impressed overall at how far computing has come. Just a few years ago this level of sound wouldn't have been possible. Now I suspect it will become the centerpiece a lot of people's audio setups.

I even stream music to my main HT system, and my 2-channel rig - just to see if I could. Could almost do away with my cd players....almost....

Why not try it? A friend has been using the same klipsch powered speakers to listen to music off of his computer while thousands of dollars sit in the room next door, tied up in audio equipment thats dormant.
I have an old creative external usb card that is hooked up to my main system, and am crrently transferring my CD collection to my computer, using flac and ape files.
BUT I'll dl a bunch of stuff off of news groups and have to get THAT straight...
I will never understand why people with nice audio setups use what you call "nearfield"
speakers, when its just as easy to hook up to your sound system.
A cheap computer can be built, doesnt have to be state of the art to run audio files, hooked up to a router to connect to your main computer, and some CAT cable,
and there you are.
I also dont see how audio companies sell "music servers" for thousands when you can do the same with a 300 buck E machine.
Anyway the conveinence of listening on a computer cant be beat.
Its kind of exciting, like the days when people built their own amps, now people are building servers and buying USB dacs and getting creative.
The biggest and most important thing is getting large collections of music into formats
that are easy to listen to, not everybody is willing to spend a half an hour seting his system up for a listening session, having everything on a playlist makes your stuff a lot more accessible, and the music quality doesnt have to suffer, either.

Hook you computer up to your audio system, and dont look back

[Feanor]

....
I also dont see how audio companies sell "music servers" for thousands when you can do the same with a 300 buck E machine.
Anyway the conveinence of listening on a computer cant be beat.
...
Hook you computer up to your audio system, and dont look back

I payed $200 for my Pentium 4, and ~$130 for a external 200MB external drive; I used available monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Frankly a new machine would have been not much more expensive. A monitor, even my old 15" CRT, is infinitely better than those mono LCD displays on, say, the Cambridge music server. I also opted for the M-Audio external sound card which was ~$175, but one might just go with the internal card.

Some people are enamoured with the rituals of handling media: LPs of course, but even just CDs. There is no real hope for these people except that someday they might change their minds. I always found manipulating LPs a huge pain in the butt. BTW, iTunes can display a nice, large graphic of the CD cover.

[nightflier]

And with computer cases looking more like components (e.g. http://www.antec.com/Detail.bok?no=552), you also don't need to have a big tower sitting next to your rack. The real problem for me is laziness. I fit into that category that is "enamored with the rituals of handling media" but when I plug my laptop into my system, all my interest in good sound goes away. I get lazy about demanding good sound.

It's almost eerie, if I think about it, as if the computer fills my mind with all kinds of different things to think about. The pervasiveness of quantity squashes any desire for quality. Look, dear, I have over 200 CDs in this little box, isn't that neat? I've noticed that my downloads aren't anywhere near the quality of my CD's (I'm even guilty of downloading 128Kbs files) and somehow I forget about how seriously deficient the sound is. Not to mention that the size of a 320Kbs symphony isn't exactly tiny so that also plays into this - who wants to pack a bunch of 60Mb files on their MP3 player? That is, if it can handle them.

The sad thing is that I know I should care more about it, but I don't. The convenience is so overpowering that I tolerate the lower quality. And considering how much I've invested in my gear, it's almost silly to own it. I can see why so many who've switched to all-digital media have no desire for fancy gear anymore. They settle for mediocrity because it's more convenient. This digital trend may be the real reason that hi-fi is disappearing, that this forum is shrinking, and that the average age of audiophiles is only getting older. After all, how many of those people who have switched would go back to physical media now that they don't know good sound anymore? Ignorance is bliss?

Feanor, I'm not suggesting this is what you've done. Obviously you're trying to find some middle ground. But that's not the case for most consumers. As an example, I have several reps I work with everyday for computer parts. Most of them started offering what they refer to as "hi-fi" when the HT and surround sound boom was all the rage. After years of selling the stuff, when I ask them to find me some Audioquest cables, Adcom amps, or B&W speakers (not unknown brands), they come back with quotes from Monster, Denon and JBL - but they'll throw into the deal one heck of an Bose Waveradio! This is their understanding of hi-fi. Some of them don't even know an amp from a receiver, but they'll lecture you up and down on the differences between all the different iPod flovors out there.

So yes, I prefer to handle the media. It keeps me grounded in good sound and critical of bad sound. Some might say I do this only to justify my gear. Well, I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, but I do know that I enjoy immensely sitting down in front of the TT, cranking up the volume to ear-bleeding levels and let the sound of Mahler's 8th fill the whole house with the glory and drama that this piece is. You just can't do that with a 128Kbs file. Maybe I'm just a little loopy, but I'm quite happy in my own bliss.

Ah, ces ordinateurs et ces iPods, ils vont décimer notre langue, notre culture, notre raison d'être!

[Feanor]

And with computer cases looking more like components (e.g. http://www.antec.com/Detail.bok?no=552), you also don't need to have a big tower sitting next to your rack. The real problem for me is laziness. I fit into that category that is "enamored with the rituals of handling media" but when I plug my laptop into my system, all my interest in good sound goes away. I get lazy about demanding good sound.

...

Feanor, I'm not suggesting this is what you've done. Obviously you're trying to find some middle ground. But that's not the case for most consumers. ...

So yes, I prefer to handle the media. It keeps me grounded in good sound and critical of bad sound. Some might say I do this only to justify my gear. Well, I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, but I do know that I enjoy immensely sitting down in front of the TT, cranking up the volume to ear-bleeding levels and let the sound of Mahler's 8th fill the whole house with the glory and drama that this piece is. You just can't do that with a 128Kbs file. Maybe I'm just a little loopy, but I'm quite happy in my own bliss.

Ah, ces ordinateurs et ces iPods, ils vont décimer notre langue, notre culture, notre raison d'être!

No, no, no. Let me restate categorically that the sound from my Apple Lossless files is as good as from CD: there is no compromise. Of course less than lossless as a different matter. 128kps downloads are simply not audiphile quality, no question about that, (although I tolerate streamed radio at 128kps for background music.)

You say the computer distracts you from serious sound quality: I understand, but I'd like to suggest that's a matter of the novelty. For me, who uses the computer 80+% of the time, the distraction is in the opposite direction.

[jim goulding]

Let me see if I've got this straight. Music from the computer is not as good as from a CD player even if playback otherwise is using your primary system?

[Feanor]

Let me see if I've got this straight. Music from the computer is not as good as from a CD player even if playback otherwise is using your primary system?

It seemed to me that nightflier was implying the compter playback is less good than direct CD playback. For my part I hear no difference, given they both use the same DAC. With Apple Lossless from iTunes, at least on the dedicated computer, there is no compromise unless it's the pleasure of fondling CDs and jewel cases.

[jim goulding]

Thanks, Fe.