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  1. #1
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Krell SACD Standard?

    Last night during the festivities, after a drink or five, my audio pimp unleashed a potential deal on me. There is the possibility of nabbing a new-in-box Krell at a substantial discount.I am assuming that an inhome audition will be an option, but probably not until the weekend. While I have no doubt that for purposes of general resolution it would be a major upgrade, I am also curious as to whether a Krell, ML, Rotel package might be too cold, analytical, or whatever. And though I am a child of the digital age even I have my limits.

    Any opinions? Any experiences? Would Mac amps on the front R and L make a signifivant difference in the long run?
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  2. #2
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
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    Well...

    ...it's just too d@mned quiet around here so it's PITA time...

    I'm pretty sure there are only a few suppliers of transports out there...so the only diff in CDPs are how each mfr. assigns their own sonic signature by modifying the analog output the DAC...essentially applying their own non-adjustable tone curve...although they'd never admit to it...

    There was one ridiculously priced unit that used an off-the-shelf, top-loading Marantz transport housed in what I can only refer to as a piece of industrial sculpture...other than the cosmetics, they also had user-selectable sonic modes...never went so far as to call them tone controls, but reading between the lines, that's what they seemed (to these eyes anyway) to be...

    So the whole audiophile crowd esches the use or even presence of them yet looks for mfs. who can provide fixed sonic characteristics in pres and amps and players and wires...

    So, why not just use TCs to suit the material/taste...they're just some caps and resistors in the signal path...what do you think the mfrs. use to achieve their signatures...Harry Potters magic wand?

    jimHJJ(...nothing personal bobsticks...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  3. #3
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    jimHJJ(...nothing personal bobsticks...)
    No offense taken. This is an area in which I could certainly use a bit of schooling, hence the question. I had assumed, and perhaps wrongly so, that build quality and interior design(whatever that means on a cd player) might contribute to the overall experience. Waiting for a top-grade universal player is always an option.

    Still, I am interested in anyone's anecdotal experiences with said unit...
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  4. #4
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Have you had an oppotunity to listen to Marantz 8260/8001? I was going to buy it, but it supports multichannel. It doesnt make sense for me to pay for extra features when I dont need them. I dont get it, I thought they were 2 channels only.

    JRA

  5. #5
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Not too many takers, huh?

    Hey JRA,

    No I haven't heard the Marantz. Actually, this is an impromptu kind of deal. I've always passively recognized the need for a source upgrade, but at this point wouldn't necessarily be searching out anything. One of those things that falls in your lap.


    Hey, anyone have any comments as to DSD to PCM conversion on this unit?? I would think at these prices one should expect unadulterated transfer.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  6. #6
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Registered Member Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Yeah, absolutely. Does it really do that? At that price, I'd pass, just based on that alone. But then again, I'm not a big fan of Krell. Although I have heard good things about their sources (the KP25SC or whatever it's called, in particular).
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
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    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  7. #7
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    The Krell will be built better

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Last night during the festivities, after a drink or five, my audio pimp unleashed a potential deal on me. There is the possibility of nabbing a new-in-box Krell at a substantial discount.I am assuming that an inhome audition will be an option, but probably not until the weekend. While I have no doubt that for purposes of general resolution it would be a major upgrade, I am also curious as to whether a Krell, ML, Rotel package might be too cold, analytical, or whatever. And though I am a child of the digital age even I have my limits.

    Any opinions? Any experiences? Would Mac amps on the front R and L make a signifivant difference in the long run?
    Most likely it will be made of metal in areas where most use plastic. Krell uses top-notch DAC's and Op-Amps. Krell also uses massive power supplies where others only use what's nessasary.

    The real question you have to ask yourself is if your going to notice a sonic difference in your audio set up. Also, how much of an analitical listner are you? I can pick out sonic artifacts in CD playback pretty easily when I get critical, but most times I'm not nearly that anal. Also, the more quality you put into your system, the more you hear how really bad some (most) recordings are. Are you willing to find out that only 10% or so of your CD's are better-than average recordings? Or that maybe out of several hundred recordings there's only a handful of really great ones? If so, then a CD player upgrade to a reference standard player is for you.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
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  8. #8
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Thanks Geoff, good criteria.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  9. #9
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    I should read better

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Thanks Geoff, good criteria.
    Your talking about the SACD player! Do you have a lot of SACD's already? SACD is now, for all intensive perposes, an "audiophile only" format. Very few new recordings are released in SACD, and the ones that are are geared more toward the audiophile. This is a GOOD thing in that the recordings are top notch for the most part, and bad because the selection is pretty limited.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  10. #10
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    They better start making more SACDs. I just dropped $900. That's not considered much by AudioFools, but that's ALOT of money for me. But my CDs will sound better so I hope I made a good choice.

    -JRA

  11. #11
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Hey guys,

    Yes, I already have a bit of a collection of sacds, probably 200 or 220. I have been a big fan of the medium for some time and, fortunately for me, I tend to gravitate toward jazz,classical, and other more geeky types of music which make up most sacd catalogues.

    JRA, don't worry. While Sony has largely stopped putting out in this format (no big loss), there are several smaller labels that do a pretty good job in keeping the flame burning. Check out releases from Chesky, Telarc, Audio Fidelity, and BIS for some good stuff.

    After some additional research I have determined that the Standard does, indeed, have separate straight DSD processing for sacd--that's good as it was a deal breaker.

    I was hoping for a few comments from some folks who had heard the particular model, but no big deal. I've secured one for a few days over the weekend...time will tell.

    Cheers
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  12. #12
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Hi Bobsticks,

    I am with Dusty on the Krell. I always preferd their source stuff to their amps. That player you mentioned has received some praise over here. I have listened to it at last years show in an all Krell set up. It did make some great sounds. I think it will definitly go with your Rotel and MLs. The Krell is not cold sounding by any stretch. And since you already have a decent library of SACDs I would go for it. I reckon it will bring your MLs really to life. But (there always has to be one) I believe that SACD is as good as gone. So new releases might be scarce. However as time goes by you can surely pick up many second hand discs.
    The Krell plays standard red book CDs to a very high standard.
    Would love to read how you got on with the home audution. I bet you will likey very much.
    Have fun friend.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  13. #13
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    My tired old refrain;

    1. The transport as mentioned above is probably made by one of the two (I think there's still two) mass market transport makers.

    2. The transports wear out (I've worn out 2) the electronics do not.

    3. Don't buy an expensive all in one so you can pay for that quality DAC again when the cheap transport mechanism wears out.

    So buy a relatively inexpensive transport (any player with a SPDIF output for Redbook, I'm unsure what the digital standard is for SACD) buy a first class DAC. Throw away the transport when it wears out and replace with another $300 or so box.

    I bought a Levinson DAC used and never looked back, certainly there are others as good maybe better for the price of that Krell. The Levinson has one of the best jitter reduction schemes in the industry, it seems to be completely immune to transport or digital cable variations.

    My DAC doesn't support either SACD or DVD-A but it's older, there must be newer ones that do it all.

    Just my opinion.

  14. #14
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Registered Member Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    My DAC doesn't support either SACD or DVD-A but it's older, there must be newer ones that do it all.
    No, actually, there isn't. During SACD and DVD-A playback, the digital output is shunted on all players. The only case where you have digital signal coming out of a universal transport is when it's using one of the proprietary links, such as Pioneer or Denon. It will never work on a standard CD type DAC (I.E. Toslink, S/PDIF).
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  15. #15
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Dusty's right...

    Hey hermanv,

    Your "tired old refrain" makes a lot of sense if my main goal were redbook cd playback. Unfortunately, the copyright protections written into the discs prevent non-proprietary digital transfer of any kind.
    I do agree with your concern over wearout. One of the things I am going to determine before I even leave the property with the Standard is what type of warranty exists. This really is developing into a scouting mission of sorts. My mindset is that can either be a longterm addition that can be a foundational piece as my system continues to evolve, or it might prove to be an over-priced, over-hyped lark. Either way, it's gonna be a fun weekend!

    Cheers
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  16. #16
    Silence of the spam Site Moderator Geoffcin's Avatar
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    I for one

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsticks
    Hey hermanv,

    Your "tired old refrain" makes a lot of sense if my main goal were redbook cd playback. Unfortunately, the copyright protections written into the discs prevent non-proprietary digital transfer of any kind.
    I do agree with your concern over wearout. One of the things I am going to determine before I even leave the property with the Standard is what type of warranty exists. This really is developing into a scouting mission of sorts. My mindset is that can either be a longterm addition that can be a foundational piece as my system continues to evolve, or it might prove to be an over-priced, over-hyped lark. Either way, it's gonna be a fun weekend!

    Cheers
    Have never heard of a Krell CD player "wearing out". I suppose it could happen, but you'ld have to play an awful lot of music to do it.
    Audio;
    Ming Da MC34-AB 75wpc
    PS Audio Classic 250. 500wpc into 4 ohms.
    PS Audio 4.5 preamp,
    Marantz 6170 TT Shure M97e cart.
    Arcam Alpha 9 CD.- 24 bit dCS Ring DAC.
    Magnepan 3.6r speakers Oak/black,

  17. #17
    Forum Regular hermanv's Avatar
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    I meant no disparagement of Krell products. Krell has been in this business for a long time and has a good reputation. I just don't know if they make the transport mechanism.

    The Redbook transports I've seen are made of very cheap bent sheet metal, they are very remeniscent and probably identical to those ultra cheap computer CD-ROM drives ($15 on sale).

    I think I knew that there were issues with access to the digital stream from the SACD players, another example of the piracy hysteria that has gripped the recording industry. They are suffering poor sales from trying to pawn off teenybopper sex kittens as musical artists.

    The larger manufacturers (aka Sony) are not any better, their primary concern is an attempt to repeat the royalty windfall of the Phillips/Sony Redbook licensing fees. As an example is the acknowledgement that some SACD titles are digital transfer copies of a Redbook source, they want double the money and don't quite understand why a buyer would be concerned to get Redbook while paying for SACD.

    If it wasn't for the boutique studio's SACD would be dead. I am also concerned by reports that many even good SACD players don't do Redbook well. Here's a case where that missing digital output jack could hurt the consumer.

    Anyway enough blather. This hobby provides a me a great source of enjoyment and appreciation for art in spite of the cost of admission to the higer tiers of audio quality.

  18. #18
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    This is getting out of hand...

    I returned home a hour ago empty handed as it were. We started off the day chilling out to some Ani DiFranco on a very nice Mac and ML set-up with a Classe source. Next, was an even nicer Cary redbook model that had a fantastic sound. While listening our conversation went from SACD, DSD, system goals and eventually just banter (that Cary has the ability to get one lost--conversation stops for long periods of time, topics change in random ways, etc.)
    Never one to miss the obvious, I say,"Hey, what's the big damn hole in the ground on the side of the building?" As fate would have it they are adding on another listening room (business must be good) and will be operating at a sort of minimum capacity. As with any kind of major construction there will be quite a bit of chaos, noise, dust, grime and the like.
    Long story made short, next week I take posession of a couple of prime units on a loan basis for a ten day audition. Soooo, kids, next weekend we have:

    SHOOTOUT: The Krell SACD Standard vs. The McIntosh MVP 861!!!

    I will make sure to include pictures and as many descriptives as necessary. On a side note, the guys actually suggested this. I thought it was pretty cool that a dealer would actually promote the idea of postponing an audition of a single unit for a runabout with two high-end units. Obviously, the opportunity to change out both within the confines of my own system will be of great interest. Wouldn't it be nice if all dealers were like this?
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  19. #19
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I meant no disparagement of Krell products. Krell has been in this business for a long time and has a good reputation. I just don't know if they make the transport mechanism.

    The Redbook transports I've seen are made of very cheap bent sheet metal, they are very remeniscent and probably identical to those ultra cheap computer CD-ROM drives ($15 on sale).

    I think I knew that there were issues with access to the digital stream from the SACD players, another example of the piracy hysteria that has gripped the recording industry. They are suffering poor sales from trying to pawn off teenybopper sex kittens as musical artists.

    The larger manufacturers (aka Sony) are not any better, their primary concern is an attempt to repeat the royalty windfall of the Phillips/Sony Redbook licensing fees. As an example is the acknowledgement that some SACD titles are digital transfer copies of a Redbook source, they want double the money and don't quite understand why a buyer would be concerned to get Redbook while paying for SACD.

    If it wasn't for the boutique studio's SACD would be dead. I am also concerned by reports that many even good SACD players don't do Redbook well. Here's a case where that missing digital output jack could hurt the consumer.

    Anyway enough blather. This hobby provides a me a great source of enjoyment and appreciation for art in spite of the cost of admission to the higer tiers of audio quality.
    hermanv you hit the nail on the head about a lot of issues within the music industry. My preceding comment about Sony largely bowing out of the SACD market was based on thoughts like these. And while boutique studios may be all that remain, many do a comendable job on the hi-rez formats. I also derive a level of enjoyment with this hobby that is comensurate with a little bit of "higher admission" pricing.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  20. #20
    Crackhead Extraordinaire Registered Member Dusty Chalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermanv
    I am also concerned by reports that many even good SACD players don't do Redbook well. Here's a case where that missing digital output jack could hurt the consumer.
    Just a minor quibble -- there is a digital output jack, it just only works on redbook CD. This is actually exactly my setup -- I use the analog outs for SACD and DVD, and the digital out into a higher-end DAC for CD. So in spirit, I agree with you.

    On a side note, I was pleasantly surprised by the SACD performance of my Sony SCD-CE775. Too bad it died. Actually, it's not completely dead, it just has two problems -- doesn't always successfully spin up SACD's, and has trouble with the drawer going in and out. I have a feeling the latter is an easy belt or gear fix, but the former may require a new transport mechanism. I really should get it fixed. I am not so happy with my current SACD player. Maybe I should mod it...
    Eschew fascism.
    Truth Will Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by stevef22
    you guys are crackheads.
    I remain,
    Peter aka Dusty Chalk

  21. #21
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Well, the big shootout never happened. What did happen was a twisted mess of metal as my ex and I totalled her Beemer when broadsided by a bread truck. A big flash of light and all I can remember is being covered with muffins and dinner rolls. I felt like Kirk and the Tribbles.

    A few new scars for character, a couple of busted ribs and a broken clavicle for me were the worst of it. Under the circumstances I feel pretty lucky. I was kept overnight for observation of "cranial trauma" although, in retrospect, I could have saved everyone a lot of time and expense by explaining how little a brain injury could truly effect me hehe...

    Basically, I'm just glad to be up and about. I'll have to stop by to see the boys and pick up some toys this weekend.
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

  22. #22
    If you can't run-walk. Bernd's Avatar
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    Man am I glad you're alright. Good to have you back.

    Peace

    Bernd
    "Let The Earth Bear Witness."

  23. #23
    Do What? jrhymeammo's Avatar
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    Holy Crap B. I was wondering where you were. Sounds like you are well, so that's great to hear. Nice to see you here again,

    JRA

  24. #24
    Man of the People Forums Moderator bobsticks's Avatar
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    Thanks gents. It is good to be back amongst those afflicted with the disease (audiophilia).
    So, I broke into the palace
    With a sponge and a rusty spanner
    She said : "Eh, I know you, and you cannot sing"
    I said : "That's nothing - you should hear me play piano"

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