Why is this section so dead, when computers are so awesome?

[Mike Anderson]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.

It's really a shame so many people have come to equate computer-based music with crappy 128k MP3's being played through $10 earbuds or 3" computer speakers...

If more people knew what's possible, the market for quality products would just explode.

[L.J.]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.

It's really a shame so many people have come to equate computer-based music with crappy 128k MP3's being played through $10 earbuds or 3" computer speakers...

If more people knew what's possible, the market for quality products would just explode.

Hi Mike,

You're right. I've never even looked in this thread before. I got about 3000 downloaded songs and I'm about to backup some of my CD collection onto my hard drive for simple playback of my music. I have some Boston Acoustic computer speakers that sound pretty nice, even when I'm playng 128k mp3's. I love music so I'm happy no matter how I'm listen' to it. Nothing fancy, but it's good enough for my needs.

[bacchanal]

While I was at school my computer was my audio system. Once I got a real audio system, I sort of stopped listening on my computer...until a couple of months ago. I got some decent powered monitors to use as speakers, and that really made me go back to the computer a bit more. I also got turned on to last.fm, a really addictive site that tracks your listening habits. That and the wife got an ipod, so I was forced to tag and organize our mp3 library.

Eventually I'll do the whole HTPC thing and set up a wireless network so I can listen to mp3s through my real system, but I've always been a "whole album" kind of guy, so cds or lps are just fine with me for the time being. Actually I'd probably do it today if I could decide on a good format to keep my library in. Right now it is 192-256kb mp3. I would like to do FLAC or SHN, but ipods won't play either. I'm kind of opposed to AAC...for the same reasons I'm opposed to WMAs. Good ol' WAV may be the way to go, but for now storage is still a little too expensive, and transfer speeds could stand to improve a little. Just think, in a couple years an all WAV library with about a terabyte of storage won't be out of the question (well, you could do it easily today if you wanted to throw money at something like that).

I'm not sure I like what the digital audio player is doing to commercial music, but then again I don't really like commercial music. The next few years will be interesting as digital audio players start to come down to "walkman" prices.

[Mike Anderson]

^^^ I've burned everything in FLAC. For my iPod, I just ran a Perl script (flac2mp3) that automatically creates a mirror directory of my FLAC files in MP3 form.

I picked up a LaCie 500GB external hard drive, so I've got plenty of space. It holds an ungodly amount of music.

I run it all into a Squeezebox:

http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

This thing is AWESOME. I can access any song instantly from a remote control without getting out of my chair I don't even have to go near a computer; it even streams wirelessly. It also hooks up to Internet radio seamlessly.

By itself, this thing sounds great. But I made it even better by running the digital output into a Benchmark DAC1.

Now I have true audiophile quality sound, with mindblowing convenience.

People are spending many thousands of dollars on hi-end CD players and transports to get the kind of sound quality I have, and they don't have the convenience and power of a computer-based system that I've put together for a fraction of the price.

I don't get it...

[ericl]

i don't think people have caught on yet. Despite the fact that we're all hanging out in an internet forum, this generally is not a computer savvy bunch. They associate computer audio with highly compressed, lossy MP3's, bad internal sound cards, etc.

Me, I'm all over it. I have an M-Audio Audiophile USB soundcard, an Airport Express, and a Squeezbox in for review. I am sold on computer audio. I don't listen to my vinyl anymore..

[E-Stat]

Having all my music on the computer has literally changed the way I listen to music. Not only am I getting higher-quality sound, I'm listening to a much larger part of my collection, and I'm constantly being exposed to new music via radio stations on the internets.

I have enjoyed ripping all my CDs to my computer for listening while working. I end up hearing a number of otherwise lost jewels. I think computer based systems are the wave of the future.

rw

[noddin0ff]

I can't figure out why there isn't more activity in this forum. IMHO, computers are the greatest thing to happen to music since the invention of multi-tracking. So why are so many people ignoring the subject?

I think it will eventually take hold. It keeps taking less and less computer savvy to get it all together. I think the main reasons computer audio slown in coming are

1) Cost per unit storage is still pretty high for the serious music fan. Hard drives still have to get larger and more affordable before I can get all my CD's on one box at acceptable resolution (and then I need a backup as well so I don't have to re-rip them-and hard drives WILL fail).

2) Most people don’t realize how easy and effective adding a second hard drive is these days.

2) Most people don't enjoy understanding formats (WAV, AIFF, MP3, FLAC, WMF, AAC)

3) Most people don’t enjoy understanding digital connectivity. And even those that do often have a hard time accepting that bits are bits EVEN when the bits code for MUSIC.

3) Copy protection is a mess. It's impossible to keep up on, hard to understand, and comes in too many forms. The computer savvy tended to hunt for free music and still hold out hopes for finding some.

4) Piracy really killed the incentives to make user-friendly software and this stalled progress. Apple got control of piracy by offering reasonable copy protection at a reasonable price and look what took off! I still need an iPod.

5) Microsoft has never ever created anything that was intuitive and Microsoft still runs most computers. And most home computer users I know can’t even keep their Windows systems up and running free of viruses and crashes for long enough to entrust the hours of effort it takes to get the music in it.

6) Music labels don’t want music on your hard drive under your control because there are too many people out there who don’t want to pay for music. I like the way you’re doing it. Get a good DAC and pump everything through it. But, you still can’t get high-res sources. hmmmm.

[bacchanal]

1) Cost per unit storage is still pretty high for the serious music fan. Hard drives still have to get larger and more affordable before I can get all my CD's on one box at acceptable resolution (and then I need a backup as well so I don't have to re-rip them-and hard drives WILL fail).

HDD prices will continue to go down but at newegg.com you can buy 2 250GB Seagates for $108ea. Those drives come with a 5yr warrantee, and I have an 8yr. old Seagate that I still use (backed up of course).

Assuming you're storing your music in WAV at about 60mb a song/15 songs per album, you could store around 500 albums (taking into account that an advertised Gb isn't an actual Gb). Obviously if you store music in a compressed format (lossless or lossy) you could store significantly more.

It is possible that you'd have to buy a new power supply and an extra fan for best performance with the extra drives.

4) Piracy really killed the incentives to make user-friendly software and this stalled progress. Apple got control of piracy by offering reasonable copy protection at a reasonable price and look what took off! I still need an iPod.

I think apple's success has to do with marketing and product design. The sale of downloadable music came second. That, and your average person just wants that 'one song'. For people who buy albums, buying downloadable music is retarded at the current prices.

5) Microsoft has never ever created anything that was intuitive and Microsoft still runs most computers. And most home computer users I know can’t even keep their Windows systems up and running free of viruses and crashes for long enough to entrust the hours of effort it takes to get the music in it.

This is interesting, because if Windows hadn't been around Napster and P2P wouldn't have had the platform to create a huge digital media push. I just don't see the whole mp3 thing emerging as it did if OS9 or Linux were the dominant OS of the time. (Interestingly enough, you can actually get more functionality out of an iPod on Windows than you can on OSX) The mp3 player wouldn't have caught on (at least not so quickly) without P2P. The average windows user may not know anything about how to secure the OS, but I'm pretty sure the average user knows how to download, rip, burn, and listen.

[L.J.]

Can I ask a question, if you guys don't mind? Is there a safe way to run sound from my laptop to my AVR? My laptop is a HP pavilion zv5000

You guys seem to know alot about computers and what not. I took a few classes awhile back, but it was PC repair and upgrading.

[noddin0ff]

Can I ask a question, if you guys don't mind? Is there a safe way to run sound from my laptop to my AVR? My laptop is a HP pavilion zv5000.

You guys seem to know alot about computers and what not. I took a few classes awhile back, but it was PC repair and upgrading.

Safe? There shouldn't be any concern really. I don't know anything about soundcards upgrades and laptops but...

The simple way to connect is to run the the headphone out to a Y-adaptor that has RCA plugs. A couple bucks at Radio Shack and you're good to go. I tend to keep the volume on the laptop at about 80% for good results.

Another option is to use the USB port to output to an external DAC that has RCA jacks. I'm a big fan of the $40 Griffin iMic. It works with PC and Mac. I have one old laptop hooked up this way to A Cambridge Integrated 540A and love it. Been running essentially as dedicated a music server for over a year...from an external 80Gig hardrive hooked up to the laptop via firewire.

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express for a while (also PC compatible). You need to run iTunes though. It's a wireless hub that accepts wireless streams from iTunes on your laptop and has both a digital out and analog out via a mini-jack (I haven't seen one first hand and don't get how the optical digital connection works). It also provides wireless internet and can network with existing wireless routers. The digital out would let you stream to a good DAC or your digital in on the receiver. The specs for the Airport Express say its optical digital. In my dreams I buy a dedicated DAC and several hard drives and go wireless. Then squeeze in a head phone amp.

[noddin0ff]

HDD prices will continue to go down...

Yes, I've done the math. Prices are almost there for me!

I think apple's success has to do with marketing and product design. The sale of downloadable music came second. That, and your average person just wants that 'one song'. For people who buy albums, buying downloadable music is retarded at the current prices.

I agree. Although, I think the prices are fine, just not the quality. If they offered lossless at those prices, I'd probably purchase online even with copy restrictions. But what I really ment to suggest was that the iTunes music store was a success because they had accceptable compromise copy restrictions. You can burn copies of the music you buy to multiple CD's, you can share your music over a network to a reasonable number of computers, and you can play other music formats with the hardware/software. At the time other services were far more draconian. I still don't like that Apple's AAC format is proprietary to iTunes and iPods but at least they license their players.

This is interesting, because if Windows hadn't been around Napster and P2P wouldn't have had the platform to create a huge digital media push. I just don't see the whole mp3 thing emerging as it did if OS9 or Linux were the dominant OS of the time. (Interestingly enough, you can actually get more functionality out of an iPod on Windows than you can on OSX) The mp3 player wouldn't have caught on (at least not so quickly) without P2P. The average windows user may not know anything about how to secure the OS, but I'm pretty sure the average user knows how to download, rip, burn, and listen.

Well, Napster and P2P weren't invented by Microsoft and I'd think that they would've happened regardless of the dominant OS. And I do admit Microsoft provides tons of functionality in their products if you can find it. Apple tends for forgo including every last feature for simplicity and on the whole that works. But sometimes it is limiting. Just about every intuitive user interface found in Windows is copied or aquired from others. Netscape, Yahoo, Napster, Google, Apple, AOL...). Windows is dominant but playing catch up. If the system had been easier to use and stable earlier digital media would be well established by now.

And talk about style with no substance... this
PlaysForSure is just a typical non-innovation. The sole purpose is to make sure MediaPlayer (and all it's draconian copy restrictions) dominates.

[Mike Anderson]

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express for a while (also PC compatible).

You should definitely check out the Squeezebox then:

http://www.slimdevices.com/index.html

It doesn't have the multi-functionality of the Airport Express, but for music, it's a much more powerful product. It also has far better sound, if you're going to use the analog outs.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Mike, I'd been slow to look into when it was brought up before.

Very interesting product. It looks like it has digital outputs if someone like yourself had a nice DAC. Something I didn't appreciate before, and maybe you can confirm... the box sits by the stereo, the remote control runs the box and navigates your playlists, but it accesses the libraries on hardrives wirelessly over the network? That's a feature that trumps Airport Express. And it works with existing iTunes libraries...hmmm.

That does indeed rock!

And I see a 'wake on LAN' function. That means if your computer is asleep and you activate Squeezebox, it wakes your computer over the wireless network and your computer starts serving?

[L.J.]

Safe? There shouldn't be any concern really. I don't know anything about soundcards upgrades and laptops but...

The simple way to connect is to run the the headphone out to a Y-adaptor that has RCA plugs. A couple bucks at Radio Shack and you're good to go. I tend to keep the volume on the laptop at about 80% for good results.

Another option is to use the USB port to output to an external DAC that has RCA jacks. I'm a big fan of the $40 Griffin iMic. It works with PC and Mac. I have one old laptop hooked up this way to A Cambridge Integrated 540A and love it. Been running essentially as dedicated a music server for over a year...from an external 80Gig hardrive hooked up to the laptop via firewire.

The next option is wireless streaming. I've been wanting Apple's Airport Express for a while (also PC compatible). You need to run iTunes though. It's a wireless hub that accepts wireless streams from iTunes on your laptop and has both a digital out and analog out via a mini-jack (I haven't seen one first hand and don't get how the optical digital connection works). It also provides wireless internet and can network with existing wireless routers. The digital out would let you stream to a good DAC or your digital in on the receiver. The specs for the Airport Express say its optical digital. In my dreams I buy a dedicated DAC and several hard drives and go wireless. Then squeeze in a head phone amp.

Thanks Nod, that's what I'm talking about. The iMic sounds like a very excellent temp solution until I can go wireless.

Your using this with MP3's right? Does it improve the sound of 128K MP3's at all?
I can also convert my cassette tapes to CD with this right, I mean it comes with everything I would need for this?

[ericl]

I have an airport express, and I think it's great. Check out the review:

http://audioreview.com/Airportcrx.aspx

I mentioned some kinks with audio dropouts, but I have since ironed those out. I should update the review. For good quality, you MUST use the digital output instead of the analog.

I got a squeezebox for review last week. It's analog output is awesome, it has way more features including a remote, but it's not as easy to use as the APX. It's got loads of potential, but it also has some bugs to work out (I used to be a software tester so I am pretty harsh on software defects and find them intolerable). Expect a review in the next month or two.

[Mike Anderson]

It looks like it has digital outputs if someone like yourself had a nice DAC. Something I didn't appreciate before, and maybe you can confirm... the box sits by the stereo, the remote control runs the box and navigates your playlists, but it accesses the libraries on hardrives wirelessly over the network? That's a feature that trumps Airport Express. And it works with existing iTunes libraries...hmmm.

That does indeed rock!

And I see a 'wake on LAN' function. That means if your computer is asleep and you activate Squeezebox, it wakes your computer over the wireless network and your computer starts serving?

Yes to all. You can also control it from your computer, which is nice if you like to sit in your listening space with a laptop, like I do.

I'm running mine into a Benchmark DAC1, using the balanced outputs of the DAC1 into a 100% balanced pre-amp; it totally rules. But I was also very impressed with the analog outs.

[bacchanal]

PlaysForSure is just a typical non-innovation. The sole purpose is to make sure MediaPlayer (and all it's draconian copy restrictions) dominates.

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft's marketing or anyone's marketing for that matter but I think this just means that windows will have the driver to run the device when it is plugged in. Apple doesn't have to worry about this, because their software model is much more proprietary (one reason there aren't as many third party devices for a mac). Though apple is getting better, esp with the switch to intel processors. From a hardware standpoint apple is becoming much like a PC. The day will come when you can run OSX on a PC and Windows on a Mac. Anyway, WMP10 in itself is a nice piece of software, with very good plugin support. I'm not sure what you mean by it's copy restrictions...unless you're talking about WMA.

I just can't deal with the idea that you can't copy from an iPod to a Mac. That and the whole bundle Quicktime with iTunes thing, so you force all the QT Pro owners to upgrade for $30 every year. I'm not a big fan of iTunes obviously. It's not the worst software in the world, but it doesn't impress me all that much. EphPod or something like that adds significant functionality.

Either way, I'm all about open source software. I hardly pay for any software (besides the OS), it seems like there is a free alternative to just about anything. Linux is the best platform for open source, but Windows isn't bad either. Apple is okay, but their systems are just too locked down for me.

[noddin0ff]

Thanks Nod, that's what I'm talking about. The iMic sounds like a very excellent temp solution until I can go wireless.

Your using this with MP3's right? Does it improve the sound of 128K MP3's at all?
I can also convert my cassette tapes to CD with this right, I mean it comes with everything I would need for this?

Improve? Hard to say. They don't give the specs on the DAC either. Its probalby safe to say the DAC is better than the standard on board DAC. The claim is that an outboard DAC eliminates the noise from internal electronics. Whopping differences. No. But I do think the iMic is a modest improvement over my Powerbook headphone jack. I find it more convenient too. I think 128K is terminally flawed so I don't go there...

For recording. I haven't tried it. It is complete as far as hardware goes. It just runs in reverse. You need the software.

[noddin0ff]

I have an airport express, and I think it's great. *snip*

I mentioned some kinks with audio dropouts, but I have since ironed those out. I should update the review. For good quality, you MUST use the digital output instead of the analog.

I got a squeezebox for review last week. It's analog output is awesome, it has way more features including a remote, but it's not as easy to use as the APX. It's got loads of potential, but it also has some bugs to work out (I used to be a software tester so I am pretty harsh on software defects and find them intolerable). Expect a review in the next month or two.

Thanks ericl- The reports of dropouts, and not just from you, were a big reason I've held off on the APX. What was the fix? Looking forward to the review! ...I think I can wait!

Yes to all. You can also control it from your computer, which is nice if you like to sit in your listening space with a laptop, like I do.

I'm running mine into a Benchmark DAC1, using the balanced outputs of the DAC1 into a 100% balanced pre-amp; it totally rules. But I was also very impressed with the analog outs.

hmmmm.... I wanna be like Mike!

[L.J.]

I think 128K is terminally flawed so I don't go there...

Is your music in MP3 format? What do you recommend?

Most of my downloaded music didn't cost a cent, so I'm not complaining.

[noddin0ff]

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Microsoft's marketing or anyone's marketing for that matter but I think this just means that windows will have the driver to run the device when it is plugged in. Apple doesn't have to worry about this, because their software model is much more proprietary (one reason there aren't as many third party devices for a mac). Though apple is getting better, esp with the switch to intel processors. From a hardware standpoint apple is becoming much like a PC. The day will come when you can run OSX on a PC and Windows on a Mac. Anyway, WMP10 in itself is a nice piece of software, with very good plugin support. I'm not sure what you mean by it's copy restrictions...unless you're talking about WMA.

I just can't deal with the idea that you can't copy from an iPod to a Mac. That and the whole bundle Quicktime with iTunes thing, so you force all the QT Pro owners to upgrade for $30 every year. I'm not a big fan of iTunes obviously. It's not the worst software in the world, but it doesn't impress me all that much. EphPod or something like that adds significant functionality.

Either way, I'm all about open source software. I hardly pay for any software (besides the OS), it seems like there is a free alternative to just about anything. Linux is the best platform for open source, but Windows isn't bad either. Apple is okay, but their systems are just too locked down for me.

All good points!

[noddin0ff]

Is your music in MP3 format? What do you recommend?

Most of my downloaded music didn't cost a cent, so I'm not complaining.

I pretty much just use iTunes so everything is in AAC. I had read that AAC was a bit better than MP3 but I couldn't say forsure myself. I didn't really give it much thought until AFTER I ripped my collection (about 60Gig @ 192kbs = 737 albums,9048 songs). I really don't want to repeat that process until I'm sure I can do it correctly. Next time I rip, it will all be lossless compression. That way I can view it as archival. That's why I want to be able to back it up too. During the ripping process I found a few older CD's that had just gone bad and weren't playable anymore.

I figure 192 is minimal for general uses in work environments, or small headphones/earbuds; most people seem to feel bitrates in the high 200's to 300's are near CD quality. But I kind of figure if your compressing in the 300's you might get a 5-fold reduction in file size whereas lossless will give you about 3-fold. Seems a pretty minor difference, why not do lossless.

I'd definately do an open source format next time. I suppose that means FLAC.

[noddin0ff]

....to ramble on....

I spent a long long long time ripping so I wouldn't have to bring CD's into work. When I started I didn't really appreciate what a cool thing music on a hard drive could be. But I slowly got addicted. Now I have this terrific library of everything I own that I can duplicate, carry around (well it's a external hardrive, not an iPod) and use. But...it sounds like crap on my home system because it's compressed. So its no use at home. At home I have piles of the last 20 CD's all over my stereo and a closet that could be used for other things than CD storage. As for versatility, I'm limited to the 5-CD shuffle provided I can find the disks that I forgot to reshelve in alphabetical order, by genre, or I'll never find them again... I like buying CDs and will continue to do so but the closet is annoying.

So, advice... If you can afford it, lossless, external hard drive. Lossless so I can regenerate CD's if needed. I buy hard drives and the enclosures separately. That way I can upgrade or swap out hard drives as the next faster bigger one comes along and still have the older one around for backup/archive. I'm not made of money so I'm waiting for the Gigabytes to become more affordable... 600MB/CD X 740CDs and counting = at least 450G and ~$280-$350 depending on the manufacturer + ~$60 for an enclosure... add $100 to $300 for a wireless network to the receiver. Voila! Maybe consider getting a old laptop computer (a PC?) to run it because it really doesn't take the latest processor to do this...~$400? I have an Apple G3 500MHz (2000AD) that runs my stereo at work and shares over the network with 2-4 other listeners at times and it keeps up fine.

[L.J.]

I pretty much just use iTunes so everything is in AAC. I had read that AAC was a bit better than MP3 but I couldn't say forsure myself. I didn't really give it much thought until AFTER I ripped my collection (about 60Gig @ 192kbs = 737 albums,9048 songs). I really don't want to repeat that process until I'm sure I can do it correctly. Next time I rip, it will all be lossless compression. That way I can view it as archival. That's why I want to be able to back it up too. During the ripping process I found a few older CD's that had just gone bad and weren't playable anymore.

I figure 192 is minimal for general uses in noisy environments, most people seem to feel bitrates in the high 200's to 300's are near CD quality. But I kind of figure if your compressing in the 300's you might get a 5-fold reduction in file size whereas lossless will give you about 3-fold. Seems a pretty minor difference, why not do lossless.

I'd definately do an open source format next time. I suppose that means FLAC.

Thanks Nod. You kinda lost me abit with all that format talk, but oh well. I'm currently using WMP and I also have Real player and iTunes. I will give the iTunes a try and see for myself if it sounds better. I have learned alot from this one thread. The airport express and squeeze box seem to be great products. I will have to look into it more when I get a little extra cash. I surely can drop 40 bucks on that iMic for the time being, though. I still have a couple hundred cassette tapes laying around. The hard part is gonna be ripping my 200+ CD's onto my laptop. I couldn't imagine doing over 700 .

[ericl]

Thanks ericl- The reports of dropouts, and not just from you, were a big reason I've held off on the APX. What was the fix?

One of the fixes was configuring all devices on my network to run at the 802.11B speed, and all on the same channel. I seem to recall doing a couple other little tweaks to my network, but now I can't recall what they are.

AH, one thing I now do is keep the source computer tethered to it's internet connection with an ethernet cable, instead of doing it wirelessly. Many wifi router also have switches in them, meaning you can bypass the wireless and just connect to the internet the old way, with an ethernet cable. THe computer is still on the wireless network though, because it's connected to the wireless router.

This has the effect of reducing wireless traffic. Instead of slinging data across the wireless network twice (computer wireless ~~> router ~~>APX) it does it just once (computer ethernet -> router ~~> APX). Wireless traffic is halved, and your chances of dropouts are too. If you stream radio to your APX as i do, this is crucial, because then the path(i believe) goes like this: (router~~>computer~~>router~~>APX) that's three trips across the network!

Hope this makes a little sense. I need to diagram it.