CD player burn in time?

[Curtis]

Do CD players have a burn in time like receivers do?

[noddin0ff]

IF you believe receivers have a burn in time... I don't,

I don't see why it would be any different so, 'Yes.'

[JoeE SP9]

I have found that virtually all active components sound better after a burn in. If you had said this to me some years ago I would have laughed. I had my brand new degree in electrical engineering and thought that specs tell all. My ears have taught the rest of my mind that specs don't tell all.

[Resident Loser]

...that say: "burn-in" is the continuous operation of a device as a test for defects prior to putting it to use.

Do CD players have a burn in time like receivers do?

And "break-in" is for shoes or maybe that period when a new automobile gets comfy seating it's various component parts...they used to fill' em with "break-in" oil as I recall and advised a light touch on the juice for the first "X" number of miles...

What would burn/break in on an electronic device? Or the motor in it if so equipped?The laser is designed to work at a specific wavelength. Motors run at a specific speed usually fixed by AC line frequency...any deviation plus or minus will affect the overall operation. Do the buffers get more buff? Will the fixed error correction somehow become more fixed? It just works from the get-go...or doesn't...or fails quickly after being put into service...at least that's what I have found to happen with most elctronics.

Same with receivers, and amps, and tuners, and...and...dare I say, loudspeakers...Rudy Bozak debunked that one back in the fifties...saying(and I paraphrase here) modern surrounds and the other moving parts are made of more compliant and stable materials than they once were( 20's, 30's, 40's?)...once any parameter of a driver changes, the free-air resonance changes...if it does, it will continue to do so. Where I come from that's a sign of a defect in the making...begs the question, where does that process end? At what point does break-in become break-down?

IMHO, the only things that break-in are your ears as you become more accustomed to what is presented to you..

jimHJJ(...The alternate definition of "burn-in": that recommended period of time usually just a few days longer than your return privileges...)

[Curtis]

It doesn't make sense to me either, but it's true. When ever I get a new receiver it usually sounds a little harsh at first, but after I run it constantly for two with the speakers off it usually sounds a lot better. So no, it's not the ears adjusting to the sound.

[Resident Loser]

...arguing the point. but...

Waybackwhen tubes were THE technology...they needed to warm up, simple phsyics that. With the advent of solid-state. that was no longer a requirement...instant-on! Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but, generally speaking, true.

Transistors reach stasis, equalibrium or whatever term one might use, very quickly. With a very narrow operational range, they perform their function as dictated by other parts of the circuit; some follow the signal. Those other parts do likewise. Other than capacitors(which may or may not hold their charge) these semi-conductors, for all intent, become "inert" without an applied voltage. Circuits also need a "load" to function properly, for current to flow...so...without the loudspeakers acting as that load, what is actually happening? What's burning/breaking? certainly not the power amp section...no load, no current draw. When power is removed, everything stops...the transistors become non-conductors and the capacitors discharge...there is no "memory", no lining-up of electrons, no appreciable electro-magnetic fields...next time you turn it on, everything starts from scratch.

Examples in support of electron alignment or other bits of subatomic manipulation, which the proponents of the whole burn/break in scenario have offered, have been accomplished under lab conditions...at absolute zero...in a vacuum...maybe even with the aid of X-rays...hardly "real world"...but, it's the grains of truth or factoids that spawn the myths in audio. Examples would be: the CAT5 wire...Teflon insulation...eutectic solders...Are there legitimate reasons to use these things?...you betcha', but visit any of the manfacturers sites and try to find any of the guru-prescribed audio applications.

Same with the "burn-in" bit...a legitimate techie term which has been appropriated by those same audio gurus and it's taken on a whole new life...again, it's the time it takes for a device to reveal defects, not to get comfy with itself or align it's electrons or purge charges in the dielectric compounds...odds are, if you'll buy one legitimate-sounding or factoid-based concept, there's more you will buy...i.e. high priced cables, cable cookers, multiple outlets filled with proprietary "stardust"...audio-grade outlets, aftermarket power cords...and to boot, all these things require "burn-in" periods to reach their prime...hhmmm...???

All I know is sometimes things sound great...later that day or the next, maybe not so great...many things can affect perception, and they can change from minute to minute...

It's been my experience that electronic devices are expected to perform to spec and as "advertised"...out of the box...anything less would not be tolerated in any part of industry, save audioland...as a precaution, a replacement part might have some bench-time for a "burn-in"(the true definition), to reveal a defect, but when someones life may depend on the quality of the repair, it seems only reasonable...

jimHJJ(...I don't expect anyone to think as I do, just simply to think...)

[poneal]

at least a few years to burn in electronics. The best method I have found is to leave them on 24/7 for 3 years straight. I always have something being broken in as it takes awhile :-). Who cares if it uses a lot of electricity and generates lots of heat. In order for this method to be viable you must not listen to the piece of equipment being burned in. You must suffer and wait the three years. That's why it's best to always be burning in a piece of equipment. As a matter of fact, I seldom listen to music as I'm so busy burning in my equipment. :-)

[markw]

If you can't tell, well, that leaves three options:

1) It's so insiginificant that you can't tell when it occurs.

2) It's a fallacy.

3) Your ears aren't sensitive enough to detect it.

In any case, I wouldn't sweat it. Those ones and zeroes on the disc don't care either.

Personally, I lean towards #2 here. I'll give speakers a little time but not much...

[JoeE SP9]

When I was working as a biomedical engineer we routinely did a traditional 100 hour burn in on all new medical electronic devices. When I started working there I knew that it was done to weed out premature failure. I also "knew" that all amps and audio devices that operated properly sounded the same. NOT! As I grew older and came to rely more on my ears I found that not only do different amps sound different but the sound changed after a burn in. The sound also changed after a warm up. I didn't really want to believe this but I married a woman whe had a pair of golden ears. She had a great deal to do with changing my attitude about the way things sound. Thanks to her patient tutoring on how to listen I now depend on my ears to tell me. A little thing like how long and loudly one can listen before aural fatigue sets in is a very instructive demonstration. Since her patient teaching I have come to rely on my ears and physiological responses more than blind faith in specs. I know from an engineering standpoint that this is not a logical thing. I don't care. I do know that when I began to let my ears decide I and my lady friends did and do more listening. I build and modify my own equipment and I have a whole slew of test gear but ultimately it all comes down to the ears. In essence specs do not tell the whole story. I know that the objectivists out there do not agree with this. I have one question for them. If all gear sounds the same why upgrade from what you started with and why bother treating this as a hobby. If there is no difference between components the only thing you should have any reason to discuss is the music you play. This is not the case. Apparently there is something going on here we don't know how to quantify. As I've gotten older I do think and not blindly believe. By the way she thought that tubes walked all over transisters and I believe her. If there are any women out there I would like to hear from them just how they feel about this question.

[poneal]

You're not going to find many women in this hobby. It's male dominated and I would just as soon keep it that way. As far as burn in goes, I say burn it in 3 years or more before you even listen to it :-).

[noddin0ff]

I know that the objectivists out there do not agree with this. I have one question for them. If all gear sounds the same why upgrade from what you started with and why bother treating this as a hobby. If there is no difference between components the only thing you should have any reason to discuss is the music you play.

Before this thread becomes overly muddled, Joe, no one claimed all gear sounds the same. And if they ever did, saying all gear sounds the same has absolutely nothing to do with whether *some* gear sounds better after a break/burn-in period. If you believe in burn-in Poneal's got some great advice! If break/burn-in really made a significant audible difference we'd have high end manufacturer's storing their equipement in a dark, cool, room and running them for a days/weeks/months until they softened and developed that subtle complexity and audio nose found in fine electronics.

If solid state electronics performed better after use, we'd all buy used computers. hmmm.

[noddin0ff]

You're not going to find many women in this hobby. It's male dominated and I would just as soon keep it that way. .

Well, if we keep women from advancing up the corporate ladder, holding positions of authority, and earning equal pay for equal work, all the while making sure that they are the only ones who raise children, they'll never have the disposable income and free time to enter and enjoy this hobby, thus preserving our male dominance of leisure time. So far, so good.

[Resident Loser]

...let's not take the apples'n'oranges walk...BUT...

So are we going down the "...my wife, who was parking the car, heard the diff after I changed the _________(enter component of choice here)" route here or do you always make your decisions based on someone else's subjective opinion? I mean no disrespect but, we all sense things differently hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting so where is the validity in your approach...I mean if WAF is the whole enchilada, Bose should be in nearly every home...

IMO, folks like tubes because of the distortion components...I don't mean to say people LIKE distortion, but, like wide-bandwidth(or lack thereof) can effect our little slice of the spectrum, there is a sorta' trickle-down effect. They're also good to heat up the odd cheese sandwich...The NOS, Russki and Chinese tubes are definitely a downside tho'...as is finding a tube tester...

And in the "if all things sound the same(which,again, is not the issue) what is left to talk about" department...my answer: PLENTY...Features for one...or rather lack thereof. The difficulty in finding reasonably-priced, pure stereo gear. TTs, tonearms, carts...DIY...listening room environment...how much I hate HT...Insofar as the need to upgrade...more power, speaker differences, heck, even styling plays a part.

And, as I have in the past asked, why do folks cryo-treat things that they plan to burn-in?

Burn in/break-in: a non-issue...

jimHJJ(...but it does so much for the mystique of the hobby...)

[poneal]

cables require a burn-in period too. I usually just burn-in my cables along with my light bulbs (oops electronic gear). Now, more expensive cables do require a longer burn-in period than the standard 3 years, but by then I'm to eager to listen to them so I say 3 years should be adequate. Optical cables are another beast all together for they require a decade or longer in order to sound there best. Although I am on the brink of bankruptcy because of the electric bills, I can't bring myself to stop because I just know that the merchandise in burn-in just will not sound right unless its left for the full burn-in period. :-)

[JoeE SP9]

...let's not take the apples'n'oranges walk...BUT...

So are we going down the "...my wife, who was parking the car, heard the diff after I changed the _________(enter component of choice here)" route here or do you always make your decisions based on someone else's subjective opinion? I mean no disrespect but, we all sense things differently hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting so where is the validity in your approach...I mean if WAF is the whole enchilada, Bose should be in nearly every home...

IMO, folks like tubes because of the distortion components...I don't mean to say people LIKE distortion, but, like wide-bandwidth(or lack thereof) can effect our little slice of the spectrum, there is a sorta' trickle-down effect. They're also good to heat up the odd cheese sandwich...The NOS, Russki and Chinese tubes are definitely a downside tho'...as is finding a tube tester...

And in the "if all things sound the same(which,again, is not the issue) what is left to talk about" department...my answer: PLENTY...Features for one...or rather lack thereof. The difficulty in finding reasonably-priced, pure stereo gear. TTs, tonearms, carts...DIY...listening room environment...how much I hate HT...Insofar as the need to upgrade...more power, speaker differences, heck, even styling plays a part.

And, as I have in the past asked, why do folks cryo-treat things that they plan to burn-in?

Burn in/break-in: a non-issue...

jimHJJ(...but it does so much for the mystique of the hobby...)

I presume that most of the men here have wives. I found that once they get interested they (women) all have good ears. Once they have had good sound demonstrated they don't want "blose". My first wife practically demanded I trade in some Magnepan MG-3's after she heard some electrostatics.She thought "blose" sounded like crap (her words). I realize most women are not as interested in sound as she was. I wish to God they all were. I must admit I have always had a dedicated listening room. It helps a lot wth the question of room decor in the livingroom.

If you don't think tubes are any good listen to some ARC or Conrad Johnson gear. The key to tubes is don't overdrive them and the distortion components are not an issue.

Cryo treatment is something I cannot comment on. I'm inclined not to believe in it.

I also hate HT. I hate 2ch recordings played over an HT system through multiple channels even more. As far as tubes go the Russian ones are pretty good. I own a tube tester and a copy of the RCA tube manual along with a slew of other test gear.

A good "budget" TT is the VPI Jr; you can upgrade it in increments. The Rega RB300 is an excellent tonearm at a reasonable price.The best inexpensive cartridge I've heard is the Sumiko Blue Point Special. I realize my ideas about TT's relate to the fact that I have a lot of vinyl. When people were selling vinyl collections in the mid and early 80's I was complaining about "perfect sound forever" and buying up all the vinyl in sight. Yes I did spend $1000 on a first generation CD player and was completely underwhelmed

As for DIY my Dyna MK3's might as well be scratch built. The only parts left from the originals are the transformers.

I didn't become a subjectavist voluntarily. I was dragged into it kicking and screaming. When I got my BS EE 28 years ago I thought specs told all. I know better now.

[J*E*Cole]

I bought my Infinity Alpha 50's a few months back. They have what Infinity calls CMMD or Ceramic Metal Matrix Drivers throughout, and when I first hooked them up, I thought I had just wasted the money I had spent on them, but after "just" a few minutes, (maybe 3 to 5), they began to sound much better. As time passed, I would say I noticed improvement for the next couple of months, and now they sound just awesome, and I have no regrets. Before this episode though, I was still pretty sure that burn in is a factor in audio electronics, but now I am 100 per cent certain.

[Peter_Klim]

If manufactureres know that their products require burn-in time to sound their best, why don't they just design them to sound better in the 1st place?

And when designing theri stuff, how do they know if it will sound better adter burn-in?

And why doesn't it ever sound worse after burn-in?

Why not have a double blind test with a new and burned-in unit to prove it's effects?

Just my honest opinion, but I believe it's all in the ear re-adjusting to the sound.