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  1. #1
    Ajani
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    Cambridge Audio Launches New Dacmagic

    Good news for audiophiles looking for more affordable DACs:

    Cambridge Audio is Launching its New Dacmagic

    http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/04...to-analog-con/

    It has two sets of optical and coxial digital inputs + a USB input... has both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs... and is priced at $400...

  2. #2
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Holy crappoly

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Good news for audiophiles looking for more affordable DACs:

    Cambridge Audio is Launching its New Dacmagic

    http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/09/04...to-analog-con/

    It has two sets of optical and coxial digital inputs + a USB input... has both balanced and unbalanced analog outputs... and is priced at $400...
    I'll need to read the specs more carefully but it looks a heck of a lot like this is the DAC section from their highly acclaimed C840 player with the bonus of USB input . For $400 that would be super bargain.

  3. #3
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    I'll need to read the specs more carefully but it looks a heck of a lot like this is the DAC section from their highly acclaimed C840 player with the bonus of USB input . For $400 that would be super bargain.
    Yep, that's what makes the product so interesting... the possibility that it may be up the standard of the 840C or at least the 740C + USB for only $400.... It would be a great option for those of us looking for a good dac, but not prepared to drop $1K on a Benchmark or PS Audio....

    I just hope more HiFi brands will enter/re-enter the DAC market... with the rise of music servers, there is a bigger market than ever for external DACs...

  4. #4
    Ajani
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    I hope products like this stimulate other brands to attack this price segment in the market... Maybe we'll oneday see a stripped down version of the Benchmark DAC1... one without the dual headphone amps and the volume control... given that Benchmark sells a single headphone amp for $450, then we might be able to see a much cheaper stripped down DAC1, maybe for $600??? Just Imagine the stir that would make in audio-circles, if you could get the legendary DAC1 (minus the headphone amp) for well under the $1K asking price...

  5. #5
    Forum Regular blackraven's Avatar
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    The difference between it and the 840c is that the 840c upsamples to 44/384
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  6. #6
    nightflier
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    But it does have balanced outs, not even the 740c has that, only the 840c. I don't know of any DAC under the $1K price point, much less the $500 price point, that has balanced outs.

    Now, is it available in the US?

  7. #7
    Ajani
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    But it does have balanced outs, not even the 740c has that, only the 840c. I don't know of any DAC under the $1K price point, much less the $500 price point, that has balanced outs.

    Now, is it available in the US?
    Both the PS Audio Digital link iii and Benchmark DAC1 have balanced outs and are under $1K... $995 & $975 respectively (LOL.... I guess that's not quite what you meant by under $1K)...

    Yep, it's available in the US (well, it will be, when it's released)....

  8. #8
    Sure, sure... Auricauricle's Avatar
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    Sounds like good news for those of us who aren't wild about the dedicated CD player idea....

  9. #9
    nightflier
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    Then there's tax and/or shipping

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Both the PS Audio Digital link iii and Benchmark DAC1 have balanced outs and are under $1K... $995 & $975 respectively (LOL.... I guess that's not quite what you meant by under $1K)...
    Which makes it just a hair over $1K more. I suppose with the Benchmark you get a headphone amplifier with it, but I hear you saying you'd rather it didn't have one.

    Speaking of PS Audio and dedicated players, any word on their new ill-named (in my opinion) CD transport?

  10. #10
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Speaking of PS Audio and dedicated players, any word on their new ill-named (in my opinion) CD transport?
    Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

    However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...

  11. #11
    nightflier
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    PS Audio's Perfect Wave Transport(PWT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

    However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...
    So I'm not the only one who thinks that this name is an absolute kluge? Believe it or not, Paul actually held a naming contest for the transport - and this was the best one, he thought. I guess that's what happens when you allow an engineer to run the marketing department. Heck even Lambda was a more promising name.

  12. #12
    Ajani
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    Looks like there will be an alternative to the DACmagic, Musical Fidelity is set to launch the V-DAC for $380. Times really are looking good if you're a music server fan...

    http://forums.avguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=4486

  13. #13
    nightflier
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    Music Servers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Times really are looking good if you're a music server fan...
    I would say that music servers are driving this market. But are these really comparable to $2-3K DACs from the big names, or are these just consumer-level processors for the BB/CC/Walmart-buying home user?

  14. #14
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    I would say that music servers are driving this market. But are these really comparable to $2-3K DACs from the big names, or are these just consumer-level processors for the BB/CC/Walmart-buying home user?
    Comparable - probably... as good as - Probably not... a more fair comparison would be to highly regarded $1K DACS and CD Players such as Benchmark DAC1, PS Audio Dlink 3, Marantz SA8001, Rega Apollo and Cambridge Audio 740C/840C...

    Only the reviews will tell... so far I only know of one review of the DACmagic and the V-DAC... I know the DACmagic got 5 stars and is being highly praised by WhatHiFi (I don't know what the V-DAC got though).... There's no reason to believe these $400 DACS won't offer substantial value for money... but I wouldn't expect to slap a $400 Cambridge DAC on a $2K Arcam CD Player and see an improvement in sound (a weakening - probably)...

    The market for $400 DACs is people with a Squeezebox classic, AppleTV or a cheap DVD player, not audiophiles with expensive CD Players...

  15. #15
    nightflier
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    Yes but the reverse is not necessarily true

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    The market for $400 DACs is people with a Squeezebox classic, AppleTV or a cheap DVD player, not audiophiles with expensive CD Players...
    One can improve a crappy transport by adding a good DAC, but the same cannot be said about adding a crappy DAC to a very good transport.

    I guess what I'm getting at is whether the $400 price point is the magic number. For the squeezebox-apple crowd, that's a steep-priced upgrade.

  16. #16
    Ajani
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    One can improve a crappy transport by adding a good DAC, but the same cannot be said about adding a crappy DAC to a very good transport.
    Agreed... the question will be whether these $400 DACS are just crappy toys or are really something special...

    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    I guess what I'm getting at is whether the $400 price point is the magic number. For the squeezebox-apple crowd, that's a steep-priced upgrade.
    I don't think it's that steep though, Squeezebox is $300 - $400 (Classic - Duet) and AppleTV is $230 - $330 (40gb - 160gb)... both products are being used by audiophiles with $1K DACs such as the PS Audio and Benchmark... so I'm sure audiophiles who can't/are unwilling to spend $1K on a DAC, would be willing to shell out $400 for a DAC (if it is good)...

  17. #17
    nightflier
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    That's still too much....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Squeezebox is $300 - $400 (Classic - Duet) and AppleTV is $230 - $330 (40gb - 160gb)...
    That makes the DAC (a non-essential accessory to non audiophiles), more expensive than the server. Not the best deal, methinks.

  18. #18
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    That makes the DAC (a non-essential accessory to non audiophiles), more expensive than the server. Not the best deal, methinks.
    Why shouldn't the DAC cost more than the server? Would someone expect a $100 DAC to improve the sound of a $300 Squeezebox? These DACS are clearly aimed at audiophiles/Audio-enthusiasts/(whatever we call ourselves) with a more modest budget... As long as they really improve the sound of whatever server/entry level device they are being connected to, then they should sell ok....

  19. #19
    nightflier
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    It's not that clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    These DACS are clearly aimed at audiophiles/Audio-enthusiasts/(whatever we call ourselves) with a more modest budget...
    Well, that's a point we can debate. I'm still a bit confused about what market segment they are targeted at. What did the bean-counters at Cambridge and MF speculate about who will be buying these? If it's the non "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts" crowd, then they will probably not buy a peripheral device that costs more than the server.

    So that leaves the "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts... with a more modest budget," which I presume is many people here. And then let's be honest and ask ourselves this: Would we shell out $400 for a new bottom-of-the-line DAC from MF, or would we spend $400 for one that is 2-3 levels higher in MF's model line-up but that we found with a small scratch and well-burned-in on Audiogon? I don't know about you, but I would buy the latter.

    A comparable case is PS Audio's little half-width amp line. They aren't selling. Sure we can attribute that to everything from the economy to dull looks, but I would venture a better guess that they expected a middle-group to exist between audiophiles and non-audiophile folks that had an extra $1-2K to shell out for these. But they weren't there. These low-priced DACs are banking on the if-we-build-it-they-will-come principle, but that is one heck of a gamble.

  20. #20
    Ajani
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by nightflier
    Well, that's a point we can debate. I'm still a bit confused about what market segment they are targeted at. What did the bean-counters at Cambridge and MF speculate about who will be buying these? If it's the non "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts" crowd, then they will probably not buy a peripheral device that costs more than the server.

    So that leaves the "audiophiles/audio-enthusiasts... with a more modest budget," which I presume is many people here. And then let's be honest and ask ourselves this: Would we shell out $400 for a new bottom-of-the-line DAC from MF, or would we spend $400 for one that is 2-3 levels higher in MF's model line-up but that we found with a small scratch and well-burned-in on Audiogon? I don't know about you, but I would buy the latter.

    A comparable case is PS Audio's little half-width amp line. They aren't selling. Sure we can attribute that to everything from the economy to dull looks, but I would venture a better guess that they expected a middle-group to exist between audiophiles and non-audiophile folks that had an extra $1-2K to shell out for these. But they weren't there. These low-priced DACs are banking on the if-we-build-it-they-will-come principle, but that is one heck of a gamble.
    IF the market is the not budget audiophiles then I agree with you about the difficulty they'll have selling... But I just can't see anyone marketing a DAC at a non-audiophile/enthusiast... it does nothing their equipment doesn't already do (from a functional perspective)... and making the music sound better is an audiophile goal (not a mass market goal)...

    The used market is a strong alternative for many... but keep in mind 2 things: 1) Not everyone is willing to buy used gear & 2) The cheapest price on Audiogon (when I posted this) for the major alternatives (Benchmark DAC1 and PS Audio Dlink 3) is $725... that's almost double the $380/$400 for the MF/CA DACs...

    As for the PS Audio Trio amps: At $1600 for the Integrated and $2K for the amp + preamp, these are not budget products... and they face a lot of very strong competition from most major brands (and that used market you mentioned)... Half-width components are cute, but don't generally inspire old school audiophiles with confidence (as many still measure the quality of an amp by size and weight).... not to mention limited inputs (only 3) and no phono stage for the vinyl lovers...

    How well these new cheaper DACs will sell really depends on how well they are received by reviewers... If for example, Stereophile says they are Class A or even B, they'll sell like hotcakes, if they say D or even C, then people will ignore them as not providing better sound than their Squeezebox etc.... All that really matters is how good these cheap DACs sound...

  21. #21
    Aging Smartass
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    This is not meant to disrepect the value of an external DAC in any way, but it also seems like the perfect opportunity to join in with a very interesting observation about the Marantz SA-8001. In the review in Stereophile, the reviewer (I don't remember who) stated that he couldn't hear any difference between the built in DAC in the 8001, as compared to using the 8001 as a transport coupled with the Benchmark DAC. That says an awful lot, I would think.

    Add to that the fact that the Benchmark DAC is $975, and is only a DAC, but the 8001 is a transport, DAC and an SACD player as well, for $899.95. I found $900 and the term "bargain" a bit tough to swallow at first, but now it would certainly seem so, no? (Can you tell I really like my 8001?)

  22. #22
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by emaidel
    This is not meant to disrepect the value of an external DAC in any way, but it also seems like the perfect opportunity to join in with a very interesting observation about the Marantz SA-8001. In the review in Stereophile, the reviewer (I don't remember who) stated that he couldn't hear any difference between the built in DAC in the 8001, as compared to using the 8001 as a transport coupled with the Benchmark DAC. That says an awful lot, I would think.

    Add to that the fact that the Benchmark DAC is $975, and is only a DAC, but the 8001 is a transport, DAC and an SACD player as well, for $899.95. I found $900 and the term "bargain" a bit tough to swallow at first, but now it would certainly seem so, no? (Can you tell I really like my 8001?)
    That's not a disrespect to external DACs but a compliment to the quality of the SA8001.. The Benchmark DAC1 is already regarded by many reviewers as being as good as digital gets... Keep in mind the reviewer also couldn't tell the difference between those 2 and the Marantz SA15S1 that he owns ($2K)... what it says is that top quality digital is available for a lot cheaper than many audiophiles claim...

    Now what I'd love to see is Marantz introduce their own DAC.... but at least they added a USB input on the replacement for the 8001 (the SA8003).... so it can be used as a DAC for an ipod or hard-drive...

    Also, while the Marantz 8001 is a great solution for people who want an SACD/CD player, it's useless to Music Server users... The 8003 is an improvement, as it can be used as a music server (just add an ipod/Hard Drive), but it's a wasteful solution for those who already own a Squeezebox etc... since it means you'd have to attach the Hard Drive directly to 8003 and not use the Squeezebox (which means you lose all the nice features of the Squeezebox, such as internet radio and playlists, not to mention that your $300 Squeezebox will be collecting dust in the corner)...

    Glad to see you're still enjoying your 8001, but it has about as much use to a music server user as a turntable....

  23. #23
    Ajani
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    Yep... It's now been renamed the Perfect Wave Transport(PWT) and should be out in a few months along with the UltraLink DAC and a Lens (whatever that is)... It sounds like the PWT will eventually be able to access all your lossless files from an external hard-drive and is claimed to have a superior user interface than the AppleTV (which PS Audio having been encouraging their fans to buy in the last few months)...

    However, since I get the strong impression that the PWT and DAC will cost well over $1K (probably near to $2K), I think I'll stick with cheaper alternatives (like the AppleTV and Digital Link iii, that PS Audio are pushing so heavily right now)...
    Quick Update:

    Looks like the Ultralink DAC will be able to access my network music (using PS Audio's planned wifi bridge).... sounds like you won't need to buy the PWT at all and can just use the Ultralink link like a Squeezbox (or more appropriately... A Transporter)...

    If the final cost when all production is ready is inline with or not too much more expensive than the Transporter, then Logitech may have some serious competition on their hands... and when I'm eventually looking to step up to an expensive network source, $2K is possible, but $4K is Hell no...

  24. #24
    Ajani
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    First 2 reviews are in for the DACmagic from What Hifi? and HiFi Choice:

    http://whathifi.com/Review/Cambridge-Audio-DacMagic/

    http://www.techradar.com/products/au...-465736/review

    and 1st review in for the Musical Fidelity V-DAC from What Hifi?

    http://whathifi.com/Review/Musical-Fidelity-V-DAC/

  25. #25
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
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    Yep, yep, yep

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajani
    IF the market is the not budget audiophiles then I agree with you about the difficulty they'll have selling... But I just can't see anyone marketing a DAC at a non-audiophile/enthusiast... it does nothing their equipment doesn't already do (from a functional perspective)... and making the music sound better is an audiophile goal (not a mass market goal)...
    ...

    How well these new cheaper DACs will sell really depends on how well they are received by reviewers... If for example, Stereophile says they are Class A or even B, they'll sell like hotcakes, if they say D or even C, then people will ignore them as not providing better sound than their Squeezebox etc.... All that really matters is how good these cheap DACs sound...
    Ajani, thanks for your links to reviews for the DacMagic and MF Vac-5.

    Yes, absolutely the DacMagic is aimed at audiophiles. Hello: not all audiophiles are willing or able to pop >$1000 for a DAC. OK, some might might make the case that a <$500 DAC isn't necessarily better that a $700, or even a $500, CDP. Fine but in my case a $500 CDP without digital inputs is as useless as teets on bull. I interface directly with my music computer and my need is for a DAC, preferably with USB input.

    Nor do I see the relevance of comparing the DacMagid's price with a Squeezebox . For me the Squeezebox is insufficient for my use for a number of reason I won't get into at the moment.

    The sub-$500 range has been neglected by mainstream makers and I'm glad to see Cambridge and MF step up. Of course, there are scads of Chinese marque DACs in the range or even cheaper: some no doubt quite good but some less so, and since they aren't widely reviewed, it's hard to know which is which.

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