Any tube DAC suggestions?

[Mr Peabody]

Years ago I made my decision on which way to go, solid state or tube, analytical/dynamic solid state verses warm/fuzzy, but that haunting presence I experienced when listening to a good tube system remains in the back of my mind. So I'm thinking about introducing a tube DAC to see what effect that would have on my system. I don't anticipate using it full time but on certain recordings where I can for go the detail for a little more presence.

Anyone hear a tube DAC that impressed you? I don't want to turn the sound into mush but I'd like to put some flesh on the bones, to borrow a phrase from an aquaintance of mine. I know of the Musical Fidelity tube buffer but from what I've read here posted I don't think it will do what I'm wanting and I suspect the effect would be minimal on my system.

[RGA]

Umm first I don;t know why you would stereotype tube dacs as being less detailed -- they don;t have to be and the ones I've heard are not.

Audio Note DAC kit 1.1 - and it will more than likely be your choice to be on all the time not for some of the time.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...anmeetsmsb.htm
http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/dac.htm

[Mr Peabody]

Kits or building is out for me, I'm not a tinker kind of audio guy. I'm more of a plug-n-play guy.

I don't want to get into a whole tube vs solid state thing but most tube lovers and even the writers for Stereophile concede that there are things that tube amps can not do as well as solid state gear and vise versa. I wonder what your definition of detail is. If tubes can deliver the detail of SS, then I don't know why brands such as Krell are called analytical. From our past conversations I suspect you haven't heard Krell done properly or in a system with synergy. I've yet to hear any audio gear deliver that type of impact from Krell. That's the way I chose but now on certain vocal or less complex music I'd for go the impact and minor detail for some presence or I think some may call it euphoria. I haven't heard a great deal of tube gear but what I've heard has been very good, some Audio Research and VTL. The VTL monoblocks came the closest to reproducing slamming solid state like bass and it did have very good bass detail. I don't have that kind of money to spent and I still suspect side by side it would fall short in the low end delivery compared to Krell but Krell might take it on the chin in the mids. I don't remember well enough to comment on the highs. I like the Krell, they are crisp without being harsh or too bright in my opinion. The Audio Research I heard although being very good still reminded me of the stereotype tube sound. That being said, AR driving some Martin Logan Requests was my 2nd favorite system I've ever heard. The source was Wadia. My favorite was the Krell 25s preamp/CD combo driving Krell monoblocks into an older pair of Dynaudio Confidence 3 or 4's. Both systems very good but very different in presentations. I've heard more expensive gear but none have impressed as those two. Maybe it was just a perfect room or system synergy, who knows?

You never did say what happened to the Sugden and what made you chance to the AN.

[RGA]

I traded the Sugden up for the Audio Note Oto because I wanted less of the veiled valve sound of the Sugden (which I still like and recommend to save a lot of systems from sounding fatiguing but which won't allow systems that don't need to be saved from themselves to shine through. Though Oto plays at another level -- but it also only plays at another level with the right match.

It is my experience so far that tube amps only lack detail (which is usually associated to higher frequencies and Slam in the bass because they are driving speakers that were not designed for tube amps (and that was assuming it was a premium tube amp to start with). So yes I agree with Stereophile that if I own Dynaudio Speakers I will get more slam and more high frequency power with a 300 watt SS beast than any sort of 10 watt Tube -- or 10 watts of anything else. Also there are many new tube amps that are rebadged classic designs and they are going for a "tube" stereotype. Jolida for instance I like and recommend but they are designed to be a little forgiving warm and other tube stereotical things. And people love that. ASL on the other hand can sound very SS like. I heard it with the CDM 1NT and you'd be very hard pressed to tell it wasn't a SS amp -- tight clear analytical and not the least bit tubey.

I have heard a professional set-up with a Massive $16,000.00 Krell Power amp that would require a dolly to move. Mark Levisnon preamp and cd player connected to Wilson Sophia's in a more bass advantagous room than my own. I'll run the AN J and oto up against it for slam and certainly coherence and high frequency realism anyday. The big difference is that the Krell front end will work on my speakers while the Oto would sound like a dung heep on the Wilsons.

I don't know what music you listen to -- I listen to pretty much everything. I think what stereophile and Robert Harley were saying is that SS typically does attack better than tubes while tubes do decay better than SS (if I remember the round table discussion as to why tubes sounded better). But I think that again is the detail the initial transient and that is why stereotypical tube amps sound veiled. So just don't buy a stereotypical tube amplifier. I don't want edgy solid state and I would choose a stereotypical valve sound over the former - but I'd rather not compromise either way.

The AN Dac is not tubey nor is it noisey or lacking bass -- it's free from some of that added on etchy zing -- Some very may find that it's rolled off -- but the measurements don't bare that out within human hearing. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue8/audionote.htm

Indeed, a relatively truthful system should tell it like it -- it is interesting that the same equipment or pieces of equipment have yielded remarkably different results. One forumer on this board got rid of the K because he said it was too rolled off in the treble and got into big spiral threads with Peter Qvortrup. Another forumer had a get together which everyone agreed if anything was a little Bright and no one would have remarked in the LEAST bit that the were rolled off. In another review of their speakers within the SAME review the reviewer noted both a shut in sound but a highly expressive sound on another recording -- gee isn't that what should happen? Another reviewer noticed big colourations with his trusty SS amp on the AN J and then was stunned that they all dissapeared with the Audio Note matching mono-blocks.

And the Kit can be had in a production version but the price nearly doubles to about $1,500.00Cdn

This is long but try and consider fellow long time big spending audiophile KevinF's views. He owned Big Brystons and PMC professional speakers (which like Dynaudio have that Slam and detail you desire and probably even more so in some respects especially in their sheer volume level impact capability) in a total set-up that was 20,000 POUNDS.
Simply because on this forum I'm the lone oboe in the orchestra. By the way I get why one would like big ass SS and Bryston or Dynaudio because of exactly those pyrotechnics capabilities they offer up. But the all AN system I've heard can rattle walls on Aerosmith with driving bass -- I find Motley Crue is a little too clear and not enough distorted that I almost prefer them on my 120db capable horn rock the house down speakers. Almost

besides Kevin is a way better writer than me
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...45133&review=1

[Mr Peabody]

I listen to a very wide variety of music.

I don't think Jolida makes a DAC but if I can't find one I may try their tube cdp. I'm looking for something with a classic or stereotype tube sound just as an occasional alternative. If I was redoing my system and could afford it I'd probably take a hard listen to VTL or Manley which do a very good job of reproducing music with tubes and remaining neutral.

I think you and I just appreciate two different styles of presenting the music. I agree that the system should be honest and accurate to the original recording but you think yours is and I maintain mine is, I can respect that and recognize it's all from our own perspective. As long as we enjoy our systems that's what counts. Until I hear otherwise I will always believe solid state brought me the closest to hearing live music reproduced but I've also softened enough to realize that accuracy does not always equate to enjoyable.

[dean_martin]

Years ago I made my decision on which way to go, solid state or tube, analytical/dynamic solid state verses warm/fuzzy, but that haunting presence I experienced when listening to a good tube system remains in the back of my mind. So I'm thinking about introducing a tube DAC to see what effect that would have on my system. I don't anticipate using it full time but on certain recordings where I can for go the detail for a little more presence.

Anyone hear a tube DAC that impressed you? I don't want to turn the sound into mush but I'd like to put some flesh on the bones, to borrow a phrase from an aquaintance of mine. I know of the Musical Fidelity tube buffer but from what I've read here posted I don't think it will do what I'm wanting and I suspect the effect would be minimal on my system.

I can't think of too many tube dacs that are currently in production. AN, the old California Audio Labs and maybe a couple of lesser know brands that aren't around anymore is about it. Of course there are probably several boutique brands that I'm not aware of.

You would have more to choose from going the tube cd player route. I've heard the Jolida cdp with one of their integrateds and a pair of Nola Alon Li'l Rascals w/sub and man it was "buttery" with nice 3D images. I've read that the Cary tube cd players have that old school tube sound too. I've heard an Audio Research tube cdp that didn't have the characteristic tube sound to my ears. One I haven't heard is the Ah, Njoeb Tjoeb. Check it out at www.upscaleaudio.com. Also there's the EasternElectric tube cd player.

I thought about adding a tube dac to my cdp, but there doesn't seem to be too many to choose from right now. It seems to be more economical to go with a tube cdp based on the current market.

[mazdamanic]

www.scott-nixon.com

[RGA]

I think a system needs to be seriously evaluated if you are trying to buy a tube cd player or DAC to be a glorified tone control -- buy an EQ it's cheaper.

I think the word accuracy has been subverted to mean that if the discs we play sound harsh in the treble that our system is accurate because it is telling us how bad the recording is. Now maybe I kust keep choosing brilliant albums by fluke -- but very very few are bad that they actually drive me to turn it off. And I have some recording that Used to think were great like the Patricia Barbara Cafe Blue album which isn;t nearly as good as its reputation, and others that I always thought were etchy and rather off are actually quite solid -- Amanda Marshal first Album.

I'm not there yet because I still lack a decent source as well.

[risabet]

Paul at Tube Audio Design is considering one for release in or around November, 2005. I'm waiting on that unit as his other products are giant slayers.


Tube Audio Design

[Mr Peabody]

I'm sure I explained why I want the DAC and it's certainly not to use as any tone control or EQ. My system is great and I've never been fatigued while listening for long periods. Tubes offer an alternative presentation and I believe less accurate than what I have now yet very enjoyable. I don't have the room nor the funds to have 2 complete systems so I thought a tube DAC may be a way to enjoy tubes when I'm in the mood.

I found a Shanling tube CD player, I think cdt-100, that gets mixed reviews but the thing I found very interesting is that it offers switchable both solid state and tube outputs. This leads me to believe that I may not be the only one who had a difficult time deciding between the two designs. This machine costs around $1,700.00 and more than I can afford for self indulgence, and I wouldn't be willing to put in place of my main player.

[Feanor]

.... My system is great and I've never been fatigued while listening for long periods. Tubes offer an alternative presentation and I believe less accurate than what I have now yet very enjoyable. ...

Just like you, I'd enjoy experimenting with tube sound, especially with those not-so-great CDs. But I don't believe that tubes are inherently better.

[thepogue]

Please refrain from using the words audiophile and Motley Crue in the same breath...it can get you put in jail in 14 english speaking countries around the world and can get you hard time in Qubec....thank you for your consiteration.


Pogue

This is long but try and consider fellow long time big spending audiophile KevinF's views. He owned Big Brystons and PMC professional speakers (which like Dynaudio have that Slam and detail you desire and probably even more so in some respects especially in their sheer volume level impact capability) in a total set-up that was 20,000 POUNDS.
Simply because on this forum I'm the lone oboe in the orchestra. By the way I get why one would like big ass SS and Bryston or Dynaudio because of exactly those pyrotechnics capabilities they offer up. But the all AN system I've heard can rattle walls on Aerosmith with driving bass -- I find Motley Crue is a little too clear and not enough distorted that I almost prefer them on my 120db capable horn rock the house down speakers. Almost

besides Kevin is a way better writer than me
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...45133&review=1

[hifitommy]

had a couple, the sigma and sigma II are two, the other more upscale one escapes me at the moment. i can heartily vouch for the sigma, with its single 12ax7, IMAGING! you have to go vinyl to beat it (my friend did). this is the route i would go.

[Mr Peabody]

I done some research on Audio Note and found they have several models of tubed DAC's that range from $1,500.00 to $31k. I put some feelers out and ran across a 1.1x MkII demo unit in mint condition at a good price and jumped on it. It should be here next week. I'm excited to hear what it does to my system. I'll let you know.....

[RGA]

Hey they have Dacs that go to $50k.

There is a fellow named Kevin F who has had the DAC for quite a while and will be reviewing it on AA.

This page may give you info on any set-up issues or other notes to try... http://www.audionote.co.uk/reviews/reviews.htm