What in the world is going on here??

Gone out of town for couple of days and coming back seeing a new sheriff in town, with Skeptic gone and Rockwell and ResidentLoser saying good bye. That is too much and too fast :confused:

I say before anybody loses their head or leave, is to wait and see what happen around here. The new administrator Eric mentioned that "prove it" discussion might be ban, but he didn't say that technical discussions (subjective or objective) are banned.

Now after saying that, IMO cable forum can not stand being split into two forum-one dedicated to objective and one to subjective discussions. The traffic is already low, and by splitting it into two, we will have two wastelands.

So it might be a wiser choice to wait and see, rather than pack up and runaway.

Beside, we need somebody like Skeptic to keep a short leash on PCtower as he sometimes barks too loud :D

Welcome back Tony, such as it is. We're all beginning to feel like passengers on the Titanic moments after hitting the iceberg. Jneutron has signed out too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swerd

Jneutron has signed out too.

---

Hi swerd

I really don't see anything being accomplished by just leaving. It just rob AR members and newbies of knowledge these old time members had. As it was said before, it might be more appropriate to have a wait and see attitude as there is too much dust in the air right now for anybody to make a rational decision.

Hi Tony,

Thanks for having an open mind. I wanted to make some mild changes to broaden the appeal of the forums, and they reacted as if I gave their grandmother a wedgie, or spit on their golden calf, or something. sheesh! a sensitive bunch, i guess. maybe i just need to change my deodorant.

Cheers,
Eric

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

Gone out of town for couple of days and coming back seeing a new sheriff in town...

---

Yep, new sheriff. He brought rope. And handcuffs. Lots of handcuffs. He reopened the jail. Deputies are on the way. No more will outlaws be allowed to roam free in these here parts and terrorize the townsfolk. The law is going to be enforced, and anyone not willing to abide by it will be herded out of Dodge.

Even if they have a pleasant demeanor while they're skirting the law. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

I really don't see anything being accomplished by just leaving.

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What is being accomplished is those who choose to leave are doing so because they perceive the environment as being not one they wish to be in..It's called voting with your feet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

It just rob AR members and newbies of knowledge these old time members had

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That is correct.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony_Montana

As it was said before, it might be more appropriate to have a wait and see attitude as there is too much dust in the air right now for anybody to make a rational decision.

---

That is incorrect.

Specifically, in my instance...I clearly stated:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jneutron

<font color="blue">Any forum which supports a "naysayer lab" is one which does not deserve my technical input..</font>

---

As I see now, that forum name has been changed to "Science Lab", which eliminates the direct denigration associated with using that epithet. Of course, the term Science Lab" would probably be better changes to Audio Lab, as that is more appropriate to the venue.

Immediately after noticing that change, I find this gem:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eric

no fair! I'm taking my ball and going home!

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And, after that behaviour being called to the table:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eric

Just a little good natured teasing.. I know, i shouldn't.

---

The statement "yes, I knew better" is not indicative of the level of maturity I deal with everyday at work, at home, nor at play. Seeing such a level tends to invoke my "feet do the voting" response.

Had the site admin approached the issue of change here in a more intellectual fashion in understanding the concerns and feelings of the existing members, he would have known what methods were required to foster those changes. Change at that level requires a clear goal, and a clear set of steps necessary to achieve that goal.

Had he done his homework, he would have realized that I am called naysayer by only one clown...and calling me such is that clown's only method of denigrating my application of sound e/m theory to put to rest absurdly erroneous physics explanations being touted as truths..it is a term he has to use, in his useless attempts at questioning my motives, rather than questioning my theoretical knowledge, which he cannot even understand....as such, the term naysayer is truly a piss poor word to be used to describe a forum whose purpose should be to discuss the technical end of cable audibility. Initial use of that term indicated clearly that either the goal is the total elimination of scientific understanding here, or the steps to achieve a different goal are not well thought out in an intellectual fashion.

I believe two things are at the moment rather tenuous here...the goal desired, and consequently, the steps required to reach a goal.

Perhaps, in 3 or 4 months, it will settle down here....and at that time, I'll decide if it is an environment I wish to post in again.

For now, my gut feeling is that my time may be better spent at AH, DIY, or Prop. (My gut is rarely incorrect...unless Thai food is involved.)

To the owner of AR: Good luck with the new site admin..

Cheers, John

It's always better, if you're gonna run off into the sunset, to just leave silently. If makes you looks less like a crybaby.

Personally, this site has sucked eggs for years and namely because of the 'prove it' lab rat camp, who seems to be too lazy to go out and listen to this stuff themselves and who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. I agree with somebody above who said that there should be some prefacing of one's words, but the badgering by the 'rats' has been a big turnoff. Nobody minds a challenge, but relentless hammering at every turn becomes just a drag. I for one welcome the change and maybe now that you 'rats' are gone others will return and bring this place back to where it was before you all showed up (M. excepted) back in the late '90s.

This site should be for hobbyists who enjoy trying new gear and listening to music, and not for lab rats. Not all of the differences are based in hard core A/B DBT comparisons and most of the hobby is subjective in nature. Finally, the correlation between perfect measurements and what is subjectively pleasing to one's ear, don't seem to be absolute anyhow.

As they're fond of saying, don't let the door...

Chris

PS: Since you're officially gone, don't feel the need to reply to this message.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

It's always better, if you're gonna run off into the sunset, to just leave silently. If makes you looks less like a crybaby.

Personally, this site has sucked eggs for years and namely because of the 'prove it' lab rat camp, who seems to be too lazy to go out and listen to this stuff themselves and who want everything handed to them on a silver platter. I agree with somebody above who said that there should be some prefacing of one's words, but the badgering by the 'rats' has been a big turnoff. Nobody minds a challenge, but relentless hammering at every turn becomes just a drag. I for one welcome the change and maybe now that you 'rats' are gone others will return and bring this place back to where it was before you all showed up (M. excepted) back in the late '90s.

This site should be for hobbyists who enjoy trying new gear and listening to music, and not for lab rats. Not all of the differences are based in hard core A/B DBT comparisons and most of the hobby is subjective in nature. Finally, the correlation between perfect measurements and what is subjectively pleasing to one's ear, don't seem to be absolute anyhow.

As they're fond of saying, don't let the door...

Chris

PS: Since you're officially gone, don't feel the need to reply to this message.

---

Chris,

There isn't a single word in your post that I don't agree 100% with. I however think this cuts both ways. The yeasayers ruined things by using VERY overbloating adjectives to describe everything under the sun. The naysayers ruined things by requiring information from people that they knew they couldn't provide(AES papers, controlled studies, DBT results). They turned something that you listen to, into something you study and read about. Pretty retarded IMO

I found that most of the naysayers never even heard or touched the things they debated against. I have debated with a couple of guys like this. They had my respect until that information was found out, then it was lost totally. How do you argue about something you have never touched or heard????

I remember the day when registration wasn't even required. Back then there were people like Vandy and others who were extremely helpful to me in getting into this hobby and that's why I've stayed around (even though I didn't post much for a long time) through at least 3 major overhauls that I recall. Each change was a little uncomfortable at first, but even as I got used to new formats and having to register and even having to change my moniker because the new formats wouldn't accept my original one (it had punctuation in it), the helpful and friendly attitude began to deteriorate. THEN came the big troll problem which made it almost impossible to join in or start any discussion. Even that tight nit bunch in Rave Recs lost folks (like DBI who gave me my first and only AR comp). After a hiatus, I came back and found that the trolls had been removed. That was an improvement, but the overall attitude of the discussion boards is still not quite as friendly as it used to be. Fewer people are willing to agree to disagree and more people are willing to argue for the sake of arguing. But, this segregating certain discussions into extremely narrow categories may not be the way to go. I remember when the General board was not General Audio, but was just General. You could catch our Canadian friends discussing hockey, etc. Anyways, I'll stick around and see where this leads, but I really have no interest in going into the Science/Audio Lab. I do like the often intelligent and different discussions in the Off Topic area, but not enough people venture in there to express differeing view points. I think it's rather interesting to learn that I have more in common with folks here than just an interest in music, audio/video gear, etc. For example, I have a better appreciation of Skeptic, ResidentLoser, and Piece-it-Pete's audio related comments based on what they've said on matters other than audio.

...perhaps someone will give you a nice, plump turkey for Thanksgiving so you can stuff it!

I never made any consistent outcry for any controlled testing(come to think of it, few actually did so), but all the evidence I have ever seen, at any of the sites for the more "questionable" products that come under fire, do little to change my opinion of things. Usually, they reinforce my opinion, as they try to dazzle with footwork and impress those who are easily impressed, while providing little or no factual information. IMO, this type of fluff and bluster begs to be questioned.

I(as is the case with many others) HAVE listened...I have found negligible "differences"...and my "anecdotal" experiences are just as valid as anyone else's...

And for anyone who might be contemplating using the "delete" key on my post because it might be considered "confrontational", I'd suggest you take a look at the incendiary piece of ...er, prose, that sparked it!

jimHJJ(...as previously stated, I give as good as I get...and since it feels like I'm the only one still left...voila!...)

...your bias is showing...your attempt at even handedness fails miserably when you use words like "retarded"...A moderator is supposed to moderate in moderation...leave the gas at home...

Again, we DO and HAVE listened...we just tend to question the observed and seek the reason why...I know I'll have no problem jumping the fence should we ultimately be proven wrong, can the same be said for the subjectivists?

jimHJJ(...Hmmmm?...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

I give as good as I get...and since it feels like I'm the only one still left...voila!...)

---

There's tons of us "neutral" party members that highly appreciate both sides. When I get advice from people here that own gear 6 times as expensive as mine and are all snotty about how great their system sounds and how crappy mine sounds because I have inferior equipment, I always enjoyed it when the link to the infamous "coat hanger" experiment made the guy with the $600 cables choke!!!

Hey, when I pay $1500 for a new integrated, I want to know exactly why it sounds better than $400 integrated beside it...brand name and price aren't good enough...there's got to be some solid technical fundamentals employed somewhere!

If it wasn't for the so-called "naysayers" being freely permitted to post their thoughts everywhere, I'd probably be a hell of a lot less discriminating and critical in my listening tests. I dare say the naysayers have saved me more money and done more good for me than not, so I'm willing to put up with the minor annoyances (which by the way nobody forces anyone to read).

I honestly can only think of one poster who really went overboard with the whole "DBT/ you didn't hear this/ you didn't hear that behavior" to the point that it became rediculous and you could predict what they'd post before they posted. And I feel all the proponents of scientific evidence have been wrongly treated and pre-judged because of the actions of one or two members.

Just my 2 cents!!!

Don't leave us RL!!!

...While I don't condone a constant harangue, I don't suffer fools easily either...all too often the point is missed because the poster is dismissed...done because it's "easy"...that's what ticks ME off...

A simple reminder of our sensory fallibility is more than some can cope with...

jimHJJ(...there's nothing wrong with being wrong, some folks see it as a shortcoming...I have found it to be the best teacher, you rarely forget those lessons...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

It's always better, if you're gonna run off into the sunset, to just leave silently. If makes you looks less like a crybaby.

---

Let's see..where to start..

First, I have not run off into the sunset..period..I stated, and I repeat here:
<font color="blue">Any forum which supports a "naysayer lab" is one which does not deserve my technical input.. </font>

AND, you are quite aware that the name was changed first to science lab, and then to audio lab..if you read the posts, you would clearly see that the name was changed after I stated such opposition to the name..which, removes the immediate concern I had...thanks to eric.

AND, I stated: <font color="blue">Perhaps, in 3 or 4 months, it will settle down here....and at that time, I'll decide if it is an environment I wish to post in again.""</font>

It is clear from the stupidity you have just displayed, that the environment here has yet to settle down..it is, in point of fact, a waste of time for me to post this response to someone like you, who shows every intention of demonstrating that he is a clown..Hence, my stated desire to wait until this place settles down. I prefer not to waste my time addressing the bs of a clown..

Now, you have the friggen nerve to call me a crybaby??? I have stated a desire to wait until the dust settles..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

Personally, this site has sucked eggs for years and namely because of the 'prove it' lab rat camp,

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It has sucked for years as a result of both camps, dude..and you are part of the problem with this attitude of yours..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

the correlation between perfect measurements and what is subjectively pleasing to one's ear, don't seem to be absolute anyhow.

---

Hmmmm...where have I heard that before????

I know...why don't you get your lazy butt off your chair, and do a search...I'll even give you some hints..

combine the term jneutron with any or all of the following key words..

Lateralization.
Skin effect
Slew rate
microsecond
inductance
correlation
propagation speed

And, go over to Prophead, and search "jneutron and Double braid coax" You will find that I have demonstrated the ability to design a cable with any inductance I so choose, any capacitance, any resistance, any prop speed, as defined by equations I worked....and, had a real "yaysayer" (for lack of a better word) test the cables( he is a moderator at AA cables)...he provided excellent feedback, and from that feedback, I have delved into the equations required for virtual 3-d lateralization effects, the timing requirements for imaging and soundstage, and how cable RCL can affect the imaging..

You will find (although it is actually in english, which you have not demonstrated even a rudimentary ability to understand) that I seem to stand alone in attempting to apply current physics, scientific, and e/m understanding to the quest to figure out what is being heard w/r to cables..

I have never said ""your imagining it, prove it, provide evidence, it can't be, your delusional, your a troll, an idiot,

I have, countless times, posted that the equations DO NOT RULE OUT the possibility that the wires can be heard..just do some friggen research...It's on this site, this forum...do it!!

I do not expect you to understand even one iota of what I speak about..the bulk of it is way over your head...I do not even want you to try to understand it..it would take you years...and your understanding is not necessary for your subjective input.

What is necessary, is a good dialogue between the subjective and objective experiences to arrive at a solution..separating the two, one at a cable forum, one at a lab forum, in my opinion, is not a method of fostering communication. It is an un-natural separation of the parts necessary for understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

PS: Since you're officially gone, don't feel the need to reply to this message.

---

Big talk, from one who expected that I would not hear it...hmmm?

I have devoted in excess of a man year to deriving the e/m theory, testing skin effect, lateralization, current slew rate tests, modelling audio systems, in an effort to understand how cables can affect the audio system..

And I have to put up with clowns who state:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chris Garrett

As they're fond of saying, don't let the door...

---

Has this forum settled down?...from your piss poor attitude, clearly not.

I await rational, informed dialogue from you...can you actually do so?

To all: I apologize for the strength of my post...but the response to stupidity is warranted..

Cheers, John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Chris,
There isn't a single word in your post that I don't agree 100% with.

---

Then perhaps you should read my response to chris..as his characterization of me is quite a ways out in fantasy land..I challenge you to find any of his characterization accurate w/r to me..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I however think this cuts both ways. The yeasayers ruined things by using VERY overbloating adjectives to describe everything under the sun. The naysayers ruined things by requiring information from people that they knew they couldn't provide(AES papers, controlled studies, DBT results). They turned something that you listen to, into something you study and read about. Pretty retarded IMO

I found that most of the naysayers never even heard or touched the things they debated against. I have debated with a couple of guys like this. They had my respect until that information was found out, then it was lost totally. How do you argue about something you have never touched or heard????

---

I agree fully with this...but have to add that a lot of yay's have never heard or touched e/m or physics..and that entire branch of science is totally lost..

It is my intent to bridge that gap..and, the biggest hindrance is the attitude of both camps..

Congrats to being moderator..good luck..

Cheers, John

jneutron: That was some spankin'...remind me to tread lightly around you! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kexodusc

jneutron: That was some spankin'...remind me to tread lightly around you! :)

---

Aw geeze, your killin me..

To coin a Steve Eddy phrase..."my panties get all bunched up" when flat out erroneous characterizations of my character, my intent, and my motives are posted..

I have absolutely no problem with anyone having a difference of opinion with me...none.

But, geeze....he's gotta get it straight..

My world is difficult enough, trying to explain to the scientifically minded people that they are not measuring it all, and providing analysis to show that, and to the unscientific ones that their pseudo-scientific explanations are incorrect...I don't need people telling the world that I am a closed minded individual...especially when I have demonstrated time and time again....the exact opposite..

Cheers, John

PS...Bangor maine??? I'm gonna be in Bar Harbour next week. on vaca..

This was at least a forum where you could freely discuss both sides without any censorship or the "gag order" in place. Granted there was a lot of flames but in the end it was OK. Couldn't you guy's The Moderators" have been more original and not made this another AA and taken the, This is a forum about cables where differences can only be determined by DBT??? Well not too much to talk about then. Hey John I know someone you can spank!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...your bias is showing...your attempt at even handedness fails miserably when you use words like "retarded"...A moderator is supposed to moderate in moderation...leave the gas at home...

---

Resident, I am a moderator, but I have not given up my participant papers in the process. I have a right just like any participant(like yourself) to state my opinion. If you carefully read my post, I knocked both sides which makes me indeed VERY even handed. When someone comes to a amatuer audio website demanding things that only professionals can provide, that IMO is retarded. As for the gas part, I put that in my hybrid car, its alot more useful there.

Quote:

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Again, we DO and HAVE listened...we just tend to question the observed and seek the reason why...I know I'll have no problem jumping the fence should we ultimately be proven wrong, can the same be said for the subjectivists?

jimHJJ(...Hmmmm?...)

---

I don't speak for subjectivist, I am firmly in the camp of the neutralist. That has been my position since I started mixing audio. I have no problem questioning or seeking the reason why, my problem lies in the fact that naysayers will ignore any, and everything that is presented to them if it doesn't support the naysayer position. So jumping the fence(as you so aptly put it) is never part of the equation. Only the information THEY deem important is supposed to be considered. That is neither a fair nor balanced perspective. Secondly, this is not the place for those types of arguments. When I post on recording.org, then I probably should present white papers, ABX and DBT study results. But to ask that of a person that is a hobbiest(sp) to present that kind of evidence to support their contention that X sounds better than Y, is out of scope for THIS kind of audio website. That is neither a naysayer, or a subjectivist position, its an APPROPRIATE position

Keep in mind, you are here to participate in discussions regarding audio, not to tell moderators how to behave. If you handle your part, I assure you I will handle mine. Agreed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobby Blacklight

This was at least a forum where you could freely discuss both sides without any censorship or the "gag order" in place. Granted there was a lot of flames but in the end it was OK. Couldn't you guy's The Moderators" have been more original and not made this another AA and taken the, This is a forum about cables where differences can only be determined by DBT??? Well not too much to talk about then. Hey John I know someone you can spank!

---

BB,
The problem is there was no balance, and the personal attacks are just too much for newbies, and people who just want some simple information. I am personally open to returning the cable forum back to the way it was since no newbie in their right mind would venture in there without body armour. I will suggest that to Eric.

The main problem I have with the old format was there were more exchanges of the personal matter than of the subject matter. Just as you see above people seem to be more inclined to attack each other, than the issue at hand. Civil discourse(very rare these days) is always welcome, but too often it turns into reckless discourse, and that is not helpful to anyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

BB,
The problem is there was no balance, and the personal attacks are just too much for newbies, and people who just want some simple information.

---

Certainly agree with you there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I am personally open to returning the cable forum back to the way it was since no newbie in their right mind would venture in there without body armour. I will suggest that to Eric.

---

You confused me there. Did you mean "except" no newbie would venture in there? I can't see how Eric can go back, unless other steps are taken to assure that there is no return to an undesireable environment..I'm afraid I can't give you any recommendations in that regard (after all, I'm just a lab rat).:-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

The main problem I have with the old format was there were more exchanges of the personal matter than of the subject matter.

---

Certainly agree there..most, most, certainly agree. to the point that I avoided quite a few threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Just as you see above people seem to be more inclined to attack each other, than the issue at hand.

---

Hmmm...In reviewing the thread above, I must note that the very first poster to "attack" another was Chris..where he said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris garrett

It's always better, if you're gonna run off into the sunset, to just leave silently. If makes you looks less like a crybaby

---

And then:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chris garrett

lab rat camp, who seems to be too lazy to go out and listen to this stuff themselves and who want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

---

And then, as a parting shot:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chris garrett

As they're fond of saying, don't let the door...

---

And then, the VERY NEXT POST:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

There isn't a single word in your post that I don't agree 100% with

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Hmmmm..it would appear you missed the verbage that was directed at me..

I hope that in the future, attacks of that nature are not tolerated by the moderators..EVEN if they are by people on the "yaysayer" side of the fence..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

Civil discourse(very rare these days) is always welcome, but too often it turns into reckless discourse, and that is not helpful to anyone.

---

So far, I really really like what it is you are saying...I hope that the hiccup that happended here, in allowing Chris to attack me, actually, in agreeing 100% with his attack, was indeed a hiccup..perhaps you were simply addressing some of the intent, and ignoring the "unacceptable" content.

Cheers, John..

PS...you in the city? or on longuyland?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jneutron

Then perhaps you should read my response to chris..as his characterization of me is quite a ways out in fantasy land..I challenge you to find any of his characterization accurate w/r to me..

---

You know Mr. Neutron, I had no clue he was talking about you until you mentioned it. I am sure no one knew who he was talking about before you mentioned it. Is this about something that happened BEFORE the change? I didn't know you two guys were digging each other eyeballs out! I would probably have a different charactization than Chris because I have had different interactions with you than he does.

Quote:

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I agree fully with this...but have to add that a lot of yay's have never heard or touched e/m or physics..and that entire branch of science is totally lost..

It is my intent to bridge that gap..and, the biggest hindrance is the attitude of both camps..

Congrats to being moderator..good luck..

Cheers, John

---

So both sides are arguing out of total ignorance! Not surprising. This whole thing reminds me of the differences between liberals and conservatives. Both are too emotional, both are too fringe, and both are so busy yelling at each other they know nothing each others agenda. This is why it is so hard to have forums with such opposing opinions. If it was kept civil and on the issue, everyone wins and learns. But usually it turns into pissing contests, and nobody wins in that situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

You know Mr. Neutron, I had no clue he was talking about you until you mentioned it.

---

Hmmm.perhaps you should switch viewing modes..then you would have seen clearly that he responded directly under me, in direct response to statements I have made..and please, John will do, thanks..don't go all formal on me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I am sure no one knew who he was talking about before you mentioned it. Is this about something that happened BEFORE the change?

---

OH, sigh...go back to the beginning of this thread...read it, please..I've no idea who chris is, I have no idea who you are..I've no history with either of you, to the best of my knowledge..

Please just read this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I didn't know you two guys were digging each other eyeballs out!

---

Again...please read the thread..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence the Terrible

I would probably have a different charactization than Chris because I have had different interactions with you than he does.

---

To the best of my recollection, I have never had an interaction with chris..of course, he has only posted here 11 times..the 11th being his ridiculous, cheap shots at me.

I also do not recollect any interaction whatsoever with you..although, given my longer history here, you probably are more aware of my inclinations, and the facts than chris.

My apologies..I had thought that you had read the entire thread.
Cheers, John

John,
I went to the top and read this entire thread, I didn't see your name anywhere where it looks like he attacked you directly. I thought his swan song comment was directed to all of the guys that decided to leave as a result of the changes, and left threads behind to announce it(which I DO think is in poor taste). You should just leave quietly because why should somebody visiting this site have to share your dissatisfaction with the rules?

Chris's comments seem so general(they could apply to several folks I know of here) that it is difficult for me to extend them directly to you. If he posts his comments after you posted yours, he will definately be under your post whether its on issue, or not. I am having a terrible(scuse the pun) time finding a personal attack here.

Quote:

---

I also do not recollect any interaction whatsoever with you..although, given my longer history here, you probably are more aware of my inclinations, and the facts than chris.

---

Well, I rarely come to the cable forum. When it comes to audio, there are quite a few more issues than cable one could worry about. I have also been posting on AR since 1997, have definately seen your name, but I don't believe we have had any interaction.

Quote:

---

You confused me there. Did you mean "except" no newbie would venture in there? I can't see how Eric can go back, unless other steps are taken to assure that there is no return to an undesireable environment..I'm afraid I can't give you any recommendations in that regard (after all, I'm just a lab rat).:-)

---

What I am saying is the bar fights in the cable forum can get so ugly that only a crazy person would enter without being covered with steel body armour.
All joking aside, the cable forum is a little esoteric for the average person, and doubly esoteric for the newbie, so it's not likely you will find them venturing in there often. I know I only have been in their(covered of course) three of four times since I joined AR. I believe room acoustics and quality components are just more important, and wires and cables fall below that.

The only alternative I can think of is to do exactly what Eric has asked, you can challenge a persons opinion, but you just have to keep it civil, and not personal. The very moment it becomes personal, the person who took it there should be banned.

I do not want to squelch a good debate(I have been in some doosey's lately)but I really have a VERY low tolerance for obvious personal attacks.

Hello Terrence


"The problem is there was no balance, and the personal attacks are just too much for newbies, and people who just want some simple information. I am personally open to returning the cable forum back to the way it was since no newbie in their right mind would venture in there without body armour. I will suggest that to Eric."

Yeah your right. But there is no balance at the AA Cable forum either because of the rather aggresive moderation there. If you go into PropHeads where there is no gag order in place you see the same shenanigins as went on here. Frankly with such a polarizing subject I don't think you can avoid butting heads. And yes expecting a hobbiest to do a DBT is as rediculous as some of the miraculous claims made by the other side. Balance would be nice.

" The main problem I have with the old format was there were more exchanges of the personal matter than of the subject matter. Just as you see above people seem to be more inclined to attack each other, than the issue at hand. Civil discourse(very rare these days) is always welcome, but too often it turns into reckless discourse, and that is not helpful to anyone."

Yes you have guys who have been arguing the same point and positions for years and just no longer respect each other. PropHeads again fits this description. The only way to deal with it is with some rather aggressive moderation. Well I am curious to see what happens and what the Moderators decide is best for the site.Thank's for the response.

Rob