Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    AR Newbie Registered Member
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    1

    Ways to Biwire???

    Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
    When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible. Should I take my two sets of pureav Belkin cables, plug them into the same receiver outputs, then put them separately into the two sets of speaker terminals, or is it actually impotant to purchase biwire speaker wire (one set of + & - on one end, and two sets on other end)? Also, since my receiver (like most) has a speaker A and speaker B output, if I should use two sets of non-specialized-bi-wires, how would it compare to use the above described method vs. putting each separate cable from the receiver into the A and B slots? (Note: Denon AVR-2807 has Audyssey setup, which I hope will not get confused if I were to use the A and B slots to actually do biwiring into a total of 2 speakers.)

    Banana plugs/clips/etc.: What is the advantage & disadvantage of using these?

    Lastly, if you'd like to answer a general wire question: Some of the non-cheap wires have very thick insulation around the + and - wires contained within, and the + and - which then have their own independent insulation. Is that very thick (looks like a cable wire) insulation, in addition to the other insulation, actually helpful to the sound quality?

    THANK YOU!

  2. #2
    Forum Regular DEVO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    89
    1. Easy way is to use 14/4 and connect the +'s together then the -'s together at the receiver and connect to A. Then on the speaker side take the connecting spades off, and connect one set to the Highpass then the other to the Lowpass.

    2. Banana's and spades make it easy for maintenence and if the speaker wire is too thick to get inside to terminal. Beyond that I would use bare speaker wire.

    3. I don't know if bi-wiring your speakers will improve performance. You have very nice speakers! (Take a listen and it's your decision).

    Happy Listening!

  3. #3
    _ Luvin Da Blues's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    _
    Posts
    1,951
    Check out the manual for that receiver. You can assign the surround back channels as a second set of front amps so that you can actually bi-amp your speaker like I have my speakers set up. Of course this not true bi-amping but will feed the mains with 220 watts instead of 110 watts.

    I initially set them up this way so I can't comment on how much difference it makes.
    Back in my day, we had nine planets.

  4. #4
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by omray
    Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
    When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.

    THANK YOU!
    Bi-wiring benifits are a total crap-shoot, there are a handful of variables that affect the results.

    Someone else suggested probably the best approach - using regular 14 AWG wire, etc.

    -Bruce

  5. #5
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    The other...

    Quote Originally Posted by omray
    Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
    When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.
    THANK YOU!
    ...side of the coin is that bi-wiring will be of little or no significance...that it's most salient result is to effectively increase the gauge of wire, which also affects the capacitance, inductance and susceptibility to RFI/EMI in the circuit...Generally speaking, none of these resultant things seem to be of any real sonic benefit under controlled tests.

    The results, if there actually are any, will not be night and day dramatic...there might be some subtle differences observed over the course of time, but the counter to that argument is that you are simply listening "better" and might notice things you never took the time to listen for before your "buy-wire"-ing. Added to the mix is that even the most ardent supporters of such wiring schemes usually claim small, but noticeable, differences and usually only with more SOTA level equipment. They reults may also be software dependent.

    To disabuse you of one particular fallacy, speakers with the jumpers connecting the woofers and tweeters were "created" for bi-amplification which, if done correctly, can actually improve your sound...Bi-wiring, and the notion that it makes any difference, is simply a by-product of tinkering or tweaking with those newly available connections...Some claim to have heard a difference and thus bi-wiring was born.

    As a point of reference, and of similar scope, is the aftermarket power cord business. Starting as a manufacturing economy, equipment companies began using IEC connectors as opposed to hard-wired cords, a tweaker here, a tweaker there...next thing you know...bada-bing, bada-boom...$1000 power cords with reptillian designations...The psychology is simple: create a void and someone will fill it. With the advent of CDs and the general loss of TTs and cartridges to futz with, what's the average tinkering sort of audiophool to do?

    To get the best sound your system is capable of requires no wires and probably no expenditure whatsoever. Simply find positions within your listening area where your loudspeakers do their best and experiment with room acoustics...it's that synergy which will have an impact far greater than any wire ever will...

    jimHJJ(...some food for thought...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  6. #6
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Bi-wiring, and the notion that it makes any difference, is simply a by-product of tinkering or tweaking with those newly available connections...Some claim to have heard a difference and thus bi-wiring was born.
    With which speaker designers did you arrive at this conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    The psychology is simple: create a void and someone will fill it. With the advent of CDs and the general loss of TTs and cartridges to futz with, what's the average tinkering sort of audiophool to do?
    Address audible problems caused by RFI.

    rw

  7. #7
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    On the first...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    With which speaker designers did you arrive at this conclusion?


    Address audible problems caused by RFI.

    rw
    ...provide a logical counter...I don't think I need to hob-nob with any speaker designers to arrive at my scenario...Bi-amplification has been widely used in professional applications going back to the advent of talkies...it has been a part of hi-fi since it's nascent stages...Pro-gear has filtered into the hobby since day one...particularly since there was no, non-pro stuff as we know it today...the earliest loudspeakers equipped with jumpers to facilitate either passive or active bi-amping were studio monitors and/or those designed for sound reinforcement applications...Such items found their way into the hobby of hi-fi...As far as I can see, bi-wiring is the proverbial johnny-come-lately...

    BTW, were hybrid electrostatics designed for bi-amping or bi-wring?

    Now apply Occam's razor to the dilemma...Did hi-freq/lo-freq binding posts appear to facilitate bi-amping (a known and acknowledged improvement) or bi-wiring (as FLZ pointed out, a crap-shoot at best)...also a phenomenon that most likely didn't even exist until the advent of after-market wiring made all flights of fancy possible? From that point on it seems like a market-driven, "jump-on-the-bandwagon" sort of scramble. Simplest answer is active bi-amping begat passive bi-amping begat bi-wiring...

    On point two: haven't we been there already?

    jimHJJ(...and do we get frequent flier miles?...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  8. #8
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...provide a logical counter.
    S-p-e-a-k-e-r---d-e-s-i-g-n-e-r-s---p-r-o-v-i-d-e---t-h-e---c-a-p-a-b-i-l-i-ty---b-e-c-a-u-s-e---i-t---s-o-u-n-d-s---b-e-t-t-e-r. While not all agree, a preponderance of those who make high performance speakers do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ..I don't think I need to hob-nob with any speaker designers to arrive at my scenario..
    I just love conspiracy theories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    BTW, were hybrid electrostatics designed for bi-amping or bi-wring?
    Both - and for the same reasons why any speaker could benefit. Perhaps even more so given the reactive nature of ES panels. Naturally, I prefer the full range flavor that obviate the issue though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Simplest answer is active bi-amping begat passive bi-amping begat bi-wiring.
    That's more like it. No villainous schemes or black helicopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    On point two: haven't we been there already?
    Indeed. This is another one of your unsupported conspiracy theories. I will continue to voice the benefits to addressing this problem.

    rw

  9. #9
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Howzabout...

    ...this: Speaker designers provide it because the marketing departments have given it flavor-of-the-moment status...and those are the fellows who control the purse-strings...and many speaker companies market their own branded wiring or have reciprocal arrangements with wire purveyors...How else could they say Brand X speakers endorse Y wires or vice-versa...no conspiracies, just good old American business flim-flammery...I know it exists...you know it exists...anyone with an intelligence level above that of a bowl of fruit knows it exists...

    Like 9 out of 10 doctors rec **** ointment...or better yet smoke Camels...

    Or NASCAR uses **** oil...

    Or etc, etc, etc...

    Problem is I'm way too skeptical, a POV only age can provide and you are way too enamored of all things bright, beautiful and seemingly altruistic...

    And again, apply Occam's Razor...how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

    jimHJJ(...always a hole that someone is eager to fill...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  10. #10
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    What I do ...

    Quote Originally Posted by omray
    Bi-Wiring (I want to do this for the sound quality for my B&W 705 speakers connected to my Denon 2807):
    When using speakers set up & created for bi-wiring [the separate drivers], please advise me for what truly will give the best sound possible.
    ...
    Banana plugs/clips/etc.: What is the advantage & disadvantage of using these?
    ...
    THANK YOU!
    See my previous post ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor
    What I use is Monster 14 ga. 4 conductor cable to bi-wire my MG 1.6's. I got the wire and the Dayton banana plugs I use from Parts Express. My cables are only 3 foot in length because I use monoblocks with longer, balanced interconnects (from Blue Jeans Cable). See the wire and bananas here ...
    On the speaker end, each of the four wires has its own banana plug; on the amp end, each pair of positive and negative wires is inserted into one banana plug. Possibly the biggest advantage of banana plugs vs. other connectors of bare wire is that they aret he easiest to connect and disconnect.

  11. #11
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...this: Speaker designers provide it because the marketing departments have given it flavor-of-the-moment status.
    That's why I asked you to whom you've spoken. That is not the case if you speak with Carl Marchisotto of Nola (formerly worked for Dahlquist). That is not the case if you speak with Jim Winey of Magnepan. That is not the case if you speak with Neil Patel of Avalon. And so on and so on. There are, of course, exceptions. Like Roger Russell. He uses Cardas cable with his IDS speakers and will tell you he did that just to sell more speakers. As I acknowledged earlier, there are some guys who just want to make a buck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...no conspiracies, just good old American business flim-flammery...I know it exists...you know it exists...anyone with an intelligence level above that of a bowl of fruit knows it exists.
    Lots of hand waving going on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?
    I confess you lost me there. All audio components today that are worth a damn use IEC sockets - and some, like my CD player, didn't even supply a cord (although they would happily provide a POS if requested. They told me no one does because their customers choose to benefit from using an aftermarket one) My $59 Toshiba DVD player has a removable cord. My NAD receiver uses a removable cord. Even a $200 Panasonic HT receiver uses a removable cord.

    rw

  12. #12
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    So...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    That's why I asked you to whom you've spoken. That is not the case if you speak with Carl Marchisotto of Nola (formerly worked for Dahlquist). That is not the case if you speak with Jim Winey of Magnepan. That is not the case if you speak with Neil Patel of Avalon. And so on and so on. There are, of course, exceptions. Like Roger Russell. He uses Cardas cable with his IDS speakers and will tell you he did that just to sell more speakers. As I acknowledged earlier, there are some guys who just want to make a buck
    ...you mean to tell me these designers allow for whatever changes to the overall circuit parameters Joe Audio might be capable of in a bi-wiring scenario...or do they assume everyone is bi-wiring, leaving those who don't the odd-man-out? Actually I'd say Roger Russell is the honest one and your POV is bass-ackwards...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Lots of hand waving going on here.
    No, just calls 'em like I sees 'em...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I confess you lost me there. All audio components today that are worth a damn use IEC sockets - and some, like my CD player, didn't even supply a cord (although they would happily provide a POS if requested. They told me no one does because their customers choose to benefit from using an aftermarket one) My $59 Toshiba DVD player has a removable cord. My NAD receiver uses a removable cord. Even a $200 Panasonic HT receiver uses a removable cord.

    rw
    As I said, a manufacturing economy...or do you actually think Toshiba or Panasonic expect folks to replace the OEM PCs with a Shunyata offering?

    And while I cant be certain, are they actually IEC configured or just removable? I know my new Panny dvd recorder is the latter.

    "Choose to benefit"? Man, I am in stitches on that one, gettin' really deep around here...

    Point was, if they were still hardwired and things hadn't gone IEC would there even be such a market?

    jimHJJ(...I'd venture no...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  13. #13
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...you mean to tell me these designers allow for whatever changes to the overall circuit parameters Joe Audio might be capable of in a bi-wiring scenario...or do they assume everyone is bi-wiring, leaving those who don't the odd-man-out?
    There are always clueless users of products who miss the boat. You design the product for optimum use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    As I said, a manufacturing economy...
    It is these comments to which I responded, "how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

    Actually, quite a few folks have used aftermarket power cords with their Tosh units over at AA. There are adapters for the various IEC plugs such as this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    And while I cant be certain, are they actually IEC configured or just removable? I know my new Panny dvd recorder is the latter.
    Both. My Tosh DVD uses the SPT-2 flavor which is likely what is on your Panny.



    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Point was, if they were still hardwired and things hadn't gone IEC would there even be such a market?
    Only for those interested in high performance audio.

    rw
    Last edited by E-Stat; 05-15-2007 at 12:49 PM.

  14. #14
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    So anyway...

    ...where were we...oh yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    There are always clueless users of products who miss the boat. You design the product for optimum use.
    So they design the loudspeakers specifically with bi-wiring in mind nowadays? I dunno', with all the possible permutations available, the last thing I'd do would be to allow some tweak-O-phile to futz with my crossover design (which is exactly what they are doing BTW)...I mean how does one account for the average Joe who runs two pairs of lampcord vs. the guy who spends $xxx/ft on the latest and greatest...It goes back to the levels of offerings from these wire companies, which infers that increased price is indicative of better performance...Caveat emptor as the saying goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It is these comments to which I responded, "how many folks would dig into their brand new, under-warranty gear to replace a hard-wired power cord?

    Actually, quite a few folks have used aftermarket power cords with their Tosh units over at AA. There are adapters for the various IEC plugs such as this.
    Well, other than the porn and bad recipes, the interweb is a grand old place...Always something new to learn about...Sometimes these threads prompt me to investigate things I am not familiar with; other times the resultant surfing only reinforces my POV...and yup, there are such adapters...from about $25 bucks on up, depending on configuration...In fact one site claims all their stuff is "cryogenically treated in cold fusion" ?????? I won't even touch that one, I'm nearly dizzy from shaking my head...

    Another site has you replacing the female, panel-mount, IEC connector, claiming it will provide a "warmer" sound...Zip-a-dee-doo-dah...and we are supposed to take this stuff seriously? That's the reinforcing stuff, onward and upward...Let's not even go to the folks at AA...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Both. My Tosh DVD uses the SPT-2 flavor which is likely what is on your Panny.

    Actually, I thought something was amiss re: your SPT-2 designation, something rang a bell, reminding me of a previous exchange...The IEC connectors usually have a "C" prefix and the ones I deal with are usually of the C13/C14 type...the three conductor, ground-pin type.

    The SPT label is simply Service Parallel Thermoplastic, a wire-type identifier. The numerical suffix -1, -2, -3 indicates the thickness of the insulation...none of which seems to have any particular IEC connotation...However, and here's the learning part, your photo is of an IEC non-polarized C7 connector,,,you can tell it's non-pol'd due to the fact that the connector is not "keyed", both conductor surrounds are round, My Panny uses the polarized version; one surround is round, the other squared-off...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Only for those interested in high performance audio.
    The nub of my gist being, without the manufacturing economy afforded by the IEC connector, there would be no market, except for the fringe-O-philes who may have some talent with tools and a soldering gun...I say knock yerself out...However, with the IEC standardization accidentally creating that "void", any schmoe can buy into the dream, think they hear a night and day difference or patiently wait for the "burn-in" epiphany to happen and the word-of-mouth, anecdotal accolades build and round and round it goes and it comes out here!

    So now I know I can run right out and purchase a 3/4" thick power cord with a C13 connector, which weighs in at about 1.16lbs per linear foot...spend another $25-55 for a C13 to C7 adapter and stick it in the backside of a device that probably doesn't weigh in at half the weight of the line cord itself...ahhh progress...

    jimHJJ(...is this a great country or what?...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  15. #15
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462

    Curious response

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I dunno', with all the possible permutations available, the last thing I'd do would be to allow some tweak-O-phile to futz with my crossover design (which is exactly what they are doing BTW)...I mean how does one account for the average Joe who runs two pairs of lampcord vs. the guy who spends $xxx/ft on the latest and greatest.
    So...if "wire is wire" as you frequently opine, then how does Joe "futz" with the crossover by selecting your favorite, lampcord?

    rw

  16. #16
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Earlier...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    So...if "wire is wire" as you frequently opine, then how does Joe "futz" with the crossover by selecting your favorite, lampcord?

    rw
    ...you had posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by E-S
    ...You design the product for optimum use...
    Do keep in mind the requisite qualifier "...of similar length and gauge"...

    What do the designers suggest for optimum results?

    Do they specify length?

    Gauge?

    Anything?

    Again, given the extremes of everything that might get wired-up, from parallel lengths of 20ga. bell wire...to DIY CAT5...to networked inclusions, there will be wide latitude in resistance, impedance, capacitance, inductance, reluctance, reactance and all the other -ance in yer pants, not to mention the potential for RFI/EMI issues...and it does become part of the Xover...way different from a coupla' inches of jumper with fixed parameters...As a designer you have surrendered control.

    With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet...

    jimHJJ(...yeah, I know, more conspiracy...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  17. #17
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    What do the designers suggest for optimum results?
    Ask. Most manufacturers and dealers don't bite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet.
    I confess that I don't share your paranoia. I had the good fortune of spending some time with Dr. Roger West of SoundLAB last spring at an audio meeting. He is a soft spoken gentleman who is not in the wire or electronics business and provided honest, unvarnished opinions.

    You need to find a better manufacturer or dealer.

    rw

  18. #18
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Ask. Most manufacturers and dealers don't bite.


    I confess that I don't share your paranoia. I had the good fortune of spending some time with Dr. Roger West of SoundLAB last spring at an audio meeting. He is a soft spoken gentleman who is not in the wire or electronics business and provided honest, unvarnished opinions.

    You need to find a better manufacturer or dealer.

    rw
    I would be interested to know what Dr Roger West had to say. Can you share?
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  19. #19
    Shostakovich fan Feanor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    London, Ontario
    Posts
    8,127

    Yeah, ones dealer

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...

    With these near-ubiquitous, marketeering weasel-words "Contact your dealer for wiring suggestions"...the consumer has surrendered his wallet...

    jimHJJ(...yeah, I know, more conspiracy...)
    For example my wishes-he-were dealer recommends spending 30+% of the cost of the speaker on wiring. Let me see: 40% markup on the speakers, 80% on the wires -- makes for an "expert opinion" no doubt.

  20. #20
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by GMichael
    I would be interested to know what Dr Roger West had to say.
    Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,



    he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

    Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

    Power cords from an engineering perspective

    rw

  21. #21
    Class of the clown GMichael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Anywhere but here...
    Posts
    13,243
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,



    he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

    Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

    Power cords from an engineering perspective

    rw
    Thanks E,

    I'll read up, but wire upgrades will have to wait until I have speakers that can tell the difference. Wouldn't want to spend too much on a supercharger to install on my Pinto.
    WARNING! - The Surgeon General has determined that, time spent listening to music is not deducted from one's lifespan.

  22. #22
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Meanwhile...

    ...the learning experience continues...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Well, this particular topic of bi-wiring never came up because he primarily makes full range electrostats. There's nothing to bi-wire! His recommendation is to find a speaker cable with particularly low inductance given their low impedance drop at the top. Contrary to the feelings of these folks,



    he never made any brand recommendations to support Big Cable.

    Like most engineers, his background on the effects of cabling and other passive parts was limited. His development work was clearly focused on improving the panel technology. It was his dealers who suggested he offer a factory "hod rod" backplate using Vishay resistors, Jensen caps, and Sledgehammer chokes after some users had already done this. (this is where RL will step in to cry foul). Initially, he resisted until he found out the incremental improvement such changes made to his otherwise excellent product. My U-1s are so equipped. A similar story exists with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly of GamuT).

    Power cords from an engineering perspective

    rw
    Somewhere between one extreme and the other dwells the truth...or at least something closely resembling it...

    While I'm fairly certain that if I searched long and hard enough I'd find some endorsements or more egregious examples of one hand washing the other, so the good Doctor is not among them...which means what prezackly? That the practice doesn't exist? It does, but sometimes it's subtle and done in most covert and non-committal manner...

    So the tweakier Soundlab customers told the dealers, who told the mfr., "Hey, you should do this and this, cuz it will appeal to that niche group"...OK, well given the fact that their products seem to be virtually hand-built and commensurately priced it's not a stretch IMO...If you decide to use components that conform to tighter tolerances and have better quality control, I'd expect to see (or more accurately hear) a difference, and the pricing difference at that level isn't going to present a problem...I mean they are selling a pair of show demo models for nearly $19K, that MSRP @ $26K...in that rarefied atmosphere what's a few hunnert more for Vishays et al?...If you take a look at the description of the U-1s, they claim to welcome the customer's input, and I quote:

    "Some of the suggestions have been of a nature that would not appeal to the majority. Nevertheless, for those few who must "go all the way" we have devised the Ultimate series. The customer is invited to assist in choosing some of the critical parts, such as the type of internal conductors and speaker posts. The color of the framework and the type of grille treatment are other areas in which the customer may participate. In other words, the Ultimate is a specialized, customized product that bears the trademark of the owner."

    I'll take a guess that whatever you would like to pay for, as long as it doesn't sully the brand's image or sonics, is OK...

    Then, of course, there is GamuT...who states:

    "For further improvements to the level of sound quality, various types of mains cable type may be tested. Like the importance of any other cable in the system, the quality and refinement of the mains cable has influence on the total balance of the sound. Please feel free to experiment with the various brands available in your country. Please note that GamuT cannot accept responsibility for damage incurred due to improper usage, connection, or manufacture of other cables than the enclosed."

    Both quotes, IMO, are of a most onerous type; neither is a ringing endorsement nor do they upset the applecart...much like the use of aftermarket wiring, it's subject to interpretation. BTW, by their own admission, GamuT uses some components and semi-conductors from those esoteric manufacturers Motorola and Philips...

    And just to show that my POV is not all that one sided, another quote from GamuT:

    "The current in the mains power cable is a very distorted version of the signal, and it contains very high frequencies.

    A special power cable can reduce radiation of interference, and it can improve your sound quality."


    Note that these last two lines are not from the manual proper, but from subject matter contained therein with the heading of Interesting Trivial Facts...Wiggle room?

    My argument: If the PC can be seen as a signal generator and that "special power cable" can attenuate it's effects, what happens at the outlet? In the wiring to said outlet? Back at the circuit junction? Isn't that "distorted version of the signal" everywhere, all down the line?

    jimHJJ(...just some info and a question...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  23. #23
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,462
    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    so the good Doctor is not among them...which means what prezackly?
    Find manufacturers in whom you can replace your paranoia with trust. (Don't think Bose is going to qualify there) Of the components I own, I have met Dr. West, Luke Manley, Bill Johnson, and through a reviewer friend have communicated with Harry Weisfeld and Ole Lund Christensen. These are all nice guys who are in the business because they share a common passion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    So the tweakier Soundlab customers told the dealers, who told the mfr., "Hey, you should do this and this, cuz it will appeal to that niche group".
    I'll restate your cynical comment. The more passionate customers told the dealers who told the mfr there are audible benefits to adding these improvements to your find product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...in that rarefied atmosphere what's a few hunnert more for Vishays et al?.
    Indeed, a $950 enhancement to a $32k speaker is relatively insignificant. That does NOT mean, however, that it is merely a fashion statement. On the contrary, the only way to visibly know the difference is to take the backplates apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    And just to show that my POV is not all that one sided...
    It is merely speculation from the bench. The experience is far more rewarding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    My argument: If the PC can be seen as a signal generator and that "special power cable" can attenuate it's effects, what happens at the outlet? In the wiring to said outlet? Back at the circuit junction? Isn't that "distorted version of the signal" everywhere, all down the line?
    Perhaps now you are really beginning to understand the question. Power line villains are found in every modern house. Since you are averse to such devices as cable boxes and cell phones, your case is likely not as bad as most others.

    rw

  24. #24
    Color me gone... Resident Loser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Nueva Jork
    Posts
    2,148

    Not quite sure...

    ...why you have done it, but this is the second time...that is, to link Bose with my supposed "paranoia and/or mistrust"...generally speaking I'm certainly not a victim of the former and insofar as the latter is concerned, any mistrust (of the suits in general) is simply a product of my overall misanthropic philosophy of "expect the worst and you'll never be disappointed"...

    In any event, my relationship (for lack of better words) with Bose is IME beyond reproach...I've owned my 901-lls for well over 35 yrs. now and they have provided me with what I'd term as excellent performance...So much so, that when I decided to go four-channel (actually ambiance recovery) back in the late 70s/early 80s, I purchased a pair of 301-lls for my rears/surrounds...and when I opted for some extension speakers in my bedroom I installed a pair of 101s with their optional brackets...and when I won my WaveRadio in a local retailers promotional contest, I thought "how cool is that"...I certainly wouldn't pay that much for a clock-radio, but it does surprisingly well for it's small footprint.

    Insofar as customer service is concerned they have been first-rate IMHO...When I requested a schematic and wiring diagram for the 901s Active Equalizer they mailed the freebie right out...when the surrounds on my 301s began to deteriorate, they offered to sell me the latest vintage models as replacements for the price I'd paid 12 or so years earlier...

    Other than applying contact cleaner, replacing a burned-out neon indicator and the left and right output caps in the EQ, I've had no other problem with any Bose product...not bad for the time frame, eh? Fortunately, most of my gear has given me years of continued service.

    In fact, in all my audio experience the only thing that has left a bad taste in my mouth, has been my encounter with "esoteric" after-market speaker wires in the form of those oft-mentioned Polk Cobras...How's that for a hoot? And in hindsight, it's just a live-and-learn experience...an object lesson in electrical engineering, no real animosity felt...

    Anywho, now that we've sufficiently addressed my guilt-by-association and resultant character flaw...

    Of the gentlemen you mentioned, we know one does speakers, another electronics, any of them in the wire business?...just curious...

    And I never said those components were a fashion statement, just that if you hold your hardware to closer tolerances and higher QC levels you should reap some sonic benefit...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-S
    ...Perhaps now you are really beginning to understand the question. Power line villains are found in every modern house. Since you are averse to such devices as cable boxes and cell phones, your case is likely not as bad as most others...
    Now back to a discussion we've had before...for sake of argument, the power cords act as a transmission source of "...a very distorted version of the signal (that) contains very high frequencies..."

    You install a shielded, IEC-configured replacement or some variation thereof. Thus, you have attenuated said radiated hash, but you haven't drained it off, you have simply reduced the range of the proximity effect. An effect, which as per the laws of physics, has a finite axial range...But, it's only diverted, you've simply blocked it's radiation longitudinally and essentially "walled it off" until it gets to the outlet and the wiring that feeds it...at that point it's free to run amuck, this "distorted version" is still there, dancing around in your electrical service, the common link to all your gear...

    jimHJJ(...explain again how shielded power cords are the answer ...)
    Hello, I'm a misanthrope...don't ask me why, just take a good look around.

    "Men would rather believe than know" -Sociobiology: The New Synthesis by Edward O. Wilson

    "The great masses of the people...will more easily fall victims to a great lie than to a small one" -Adolph Hitler

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves" -Goethe

    If you repeat a lie often enough, some will believe it to be the truth...

  25. #25
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    740
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    S-p-e-a-k-e-r---d-e-s-i-g-n-e-r-s---p-r-o-v-i-d-e---t-h-e---c-a-p-a-b-i-l-i-ty---b-e-c-a-u-s-e---i-t---s-o-u-n-d-s---b-e-t-t-e-r.

    rw

    Speaker designers do it because the marketing department tells them to.

    -Bruce

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •