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  1. #1
    Forum Regular Arch's Avatar
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    Van Den Hul Cables

    I have a entry level system consisting of Yamaha RX-V440 reciever with a pair of Paradigm Esprit v3 and a Pioneer DVD-353 player. A couple of weeks ago I decided to look into replacing my "freebie" speaker cables. My local shop recommanded a pair of Van Der Hul Clearwater cables for $4 canadian per foot. Total for the set came to under $30.

    The VDH really did make a difference on my system, to my great surprise. Vocals are clearer and more detail. Mid bass seemed a little tighter. I started to think now that if these inexpensive cables can make such a difference, can anyone think of another relatively cheap cable (roughly $10 - $12 canadian per foot) that sound even better than my pair of VDH?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I have a entry level system consisting of Yamaha RX-V440 reciever with a pair of Paradigm Esprit v3 and a Pioneer DVD-353 player. A couple of weeks ago I decided to look into replacing my "freebie" speaker cables. My local shop recommanded a pair of Van Der Hul Clearwater cables for $4 canadian per foot. Total for the set came to under $30.

    The VDH really did make a difference on my system, to my great surprise. Vocals are clearer and more detail. Mid bass seemed a little tighter. I started to think now that if these inexpensive cables can make such a difference, can anyone think of another relatively cheap cable (roughly $10 - $12 canadian per foot) that sound even better than my pair of VDH?
    No, I can't recommend anything, but you may not find another audiophile cable near that price that you will like better than the VDH Clearwater. You are using very short runs(3ft to 4ft), which is good if you have enough space between the speakers for stereo seperation. However, if you want to experiment with other cables, it may be hard to find anything other than a standard length (8ft may be the minimum) ) with a money-back guarantee.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I have a entry level system consisting of Yamaha RX-V440 reciever with a pair of Paradigm Esprit v3 and a Pioneer DVD-353 player. A couple of weeks ago I decided to look into replacing my "freebie" speaker cables. My local shop recommanded a pair of Van Der Hul Clearwater cables for $4 canadian per foot. Total for the set came to under $30.

    The VDH really did make a difference on my system, to my great surprise. Vocals are clearer and more detail. Mid bass seemed a little tighter. I started to think now that if these inexpensive cables can make such a difference, can anyone think of another relatively cheap cable (roughly $10 - $12 canadian per foot) that sound even better than my pair of VDH?

    I am sure a generic 12ga costing $.30/ft would have performes just as well a sthe $4/ft cables.
    Do you know the gage of these expensive cables? Or the ones that came with the system?
    mtrycrafts

  4. #4
    Forum Regular Arch's Avatar
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    The VDH Clearwater is rated at 14 ga. (1.97mm), according to the website. The freebie "made in china" cable I got from the store is quite a bit thicker, my guess is probably 12 ga. or more. I use the cables straight with no connectors.

    Another observation I have is that the wire strands of the freebie cable is quite loose, while the VDH appears much more densely packed.

  5. #5
    DIY Dude poneal's Avatar
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    Did they make it a pretty blue color too?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I have a entry level system consisting of Yamaha RX-V440 reciever with a pair of Paradigm Esprit v3 and a Pioneer DVD-353 player. A couple of weeks ago I decided to look into replacing my "freebie" speaker cables. My local shop recommanded a pair of Van Der Hul Clearwater cables for $4 canadian per foot. Total for the set came to under $30.

    The VDH really did make a difference on my system, to my great surprise. Vocals are clearer and more detail. Mid bass seemed a little tighter. I started to think now that if these inexpensive cables can make such a difference, can anyone think of another relatively cheap cable (roughly $10 - $12 canadian per foot) that sound even better than my pair of VDH?
    You'll just get ridiculed here for reporting your personal experience with cables. Why bother?

    Guys like you are about as welcome here as a gay athiest is at a Southern Baptist church.

  7. #7
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You'll just get ridiculed here for reporting your personal experience with cables. ...

    ...or for not having a "high rez" enough system.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  8. #8
    Forum Regular Arch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You'll just get ridiculed here for reporting your personal experience with cables. Why bother?

    Guys like you are about as welcome here as a gay athiest is at a Southern Baptist church.

    I've seen some pretty nasty and bias debate on this forum before, but I am particularly disappointed in what you have said Pctower.

    I will be the first to admit that I am a newbie to the world of audio gears. I hope that I have been clear in expressing my thrust for knowledge, and generally trying to become a more informed enthusiast as a result of my participation in the dicussions. Isn't that why we have such a forum in the first place?

    Whether you "welcome" guys like me or not is irrelevant; We're all here anyway!

    Please try to be more constructive for the sake of everyone who tries to learn something from all this.

  9. #9
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    Don't sweat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I've seen some pretty nasty and bias debate on this forum before, but I am particularly disappointed in what you have said Pctower.

    I will be the first to admit that I am a newbie to the world of audio gears. I hope that I have been clear in expressing my thrust for knowledge, and generally trying to become a more informed enthusiast as a result of my participation in the dicussions. Isn't that why we have such a forum in the first place?

    Whether you "welcome" guys like me or not is irrelevant; We're all here anyway!

    Please try to be more constructive for the sake of everyone who tries to learn something from all this.
    As a person WHO KNOWS CABLES CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, I welcome you!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  10. #10
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    Get ridiculed by whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You'll just get ridiculed here for reporting your personal experience with cables. Why bother?

    Guys like you are about as welcome here as a gay athiest is at a Southern Baptist church.
    A bunch of meter readers, most of whom have never personally tried to compare cables. Big $hit, who cares. Like they have anything useful to say, other that the same old song and dance; blah blah blah, yada yada yada!
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I've seen some pretty nasty and bias debate on this forum before, but I am particularly disappointed in what you have said Pctower.

    I will be the first to admit that I am a newbie to the world of audio gears. I hope that I have been clear in expressing my thrust for knowledge, and generally trying to become a more informed enthusiast as a result of my participation in the dicussions. Isn't that why we have such a forum in the first place?

    Whether you "welcome" guys like me or not is irrelevant; We're all here anyway!

    Please try to be more constructive for the sake of everyone who tries to learn something from all this.
    Sorry Arch. My comment about "not being welcome" was not intended by you to be taken seriously. It was my facious way of saying that most here don't believe that cables make a difference and will generally challenge any statement about experiences to the contrary.

    While they are correct that there is little if any valid scientific proof that similar cables of similar gauge and length make a difference, they will insist on druming that into you head over and over again.

    I have found it pointless to discuss subjective experiences with cables here. I was once severely taken to task for even publicly disclosing that I used after-market cables - apparently I might somehow lead some innocent newcomer down the primrose path with such revelations.

    Most people who have tried to discuss subjective experiences regarding cables have given up and gone elsewhere. Just not worth the hassle for them.

    As far as I'm concerned you're more than welcome here. But be prepared for the fact that sooner or later you will in all liklihood be ridiculed for statements of personal experience as you provided in your initial post. In fact, poneal already has done so in his post.

  12. #12
    Forum Regular Arch's Avatar
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    I appreciate your reply Pctower.

    I have been a long time viewer on this forum, and I am aware of the eternal battle between those who can hear the difference, and those who don’t.

    I myself am very skeptical of the difference an “high-end” cable can make to an audio system. Personally I tend to believe in the placebo theory when it comes to very expensive wires. I am curious though of the difference between a cable that is essentially put together with the least amount of cost and care, and those which is designed and constructed with intent.

    I thought the VDH cable is a pretty good starting point. It is a very reasonably priced cable that is designed and constructed for audio use – no more, no less. Yes, I own a pretty low-end, “low rez” system. And yes, I DID hear a difference in Tori Amos’ vocal after I installed the cables. No, the difference isn’t day and night, but it was enough to make her voice sound BETTER.

    So I follow this observation with a thought: if I compare this cable with other cables that are supposingly “better” designed and “better” constructed, at which point will it’s improvement effect tapers off to insignificance, at least to the limit of our senses?

    And will this…. No, CAN this cable cost $15 per foot?

    And no, the Clearwater speaker wire does not come in blue. Please refer to the cable’s name for its colour.

  13. #13
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bturk667
    A bunch of meter readers, most of whom have never personally tried to compare cables. Big $hit, who cares. Like they have anything useful to say, other that the same old song and dance; blah blah blah, yada yada yada!
    So, are you going to give the guy some advice from your infinite wisdom, or just talk smack? Do you have anything "useful to say?"
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  14. #14
    Forum Regular Arch's Avatar
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    I don't know shi$, Rockwell, I think I made that quite clear. That's why I'm asking questions.

    Do you have anything useful to say?

  15. #15
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I don't know shi$, Rockwell, I think I made that quite clear. That's why I'm asking questions.

    Do you have anything useful to say?
    My advice would be to head down to Walmart and buy some well made but inexpensive cables. However, if I say this, I am somehow ridiculing you or I am a meter reader. I sense that isn't the advice you were requesting.

    This is the subjectivists chance to give all the advice they accuse us of squelching, but you see how much you have gotten from them.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I have a entry level system consisting of Yamaha RX-V440 reciever with a pair of Paradigm Esprit v3 and a Pioneer DVD-353 player. A couple of weeks ago I decided to look into replacing my "freebie" speaker cables. My local shop recommanded a pair of Van Der Hul Clearwater cables for $4 canadian per foot. Total for the set came to under $30.

    The VDH really did make a difference on my system, to my great surprise. Vocals are clearer and more detail. Mid bass seemed a little tighter. I started to think now that if these inexpensive cables can make such a difference, can anyone think of another relatively cheap cable (roughly $10 - $12 canadian per foot) that sound even better than my pair of VDH?
    I have tried and liked SignalCable's single run speaker cable, available direct for $69 for a 6ft terminated pair, and Zu Cable's Julian, frequently auctioned new on eBay (8ft terminated pair recently went for $67). If my information is up to date, the money-back guarantee is 30 days on the former and 60 days on the latter. If you are interested in experimenting with different speaker cables, one of these might be a good start. I hope you have fun.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    The VDH Clearwater is rated at 14 ga. (1.97mm), according to the website. The freebie "made in china" cable I got from the store is quite a bit thicker, my guess is probably 12 ga. or more. I use the cables straight with no connectors.

    Another observation I have is that the wire strands of the freebie cable is quite loose, while the VDH appears much more densely packed.

    Well, in that case, you should just stick with the freebie. Don't worry about the ends being loose. Use a connector, it won't be loose.
    mtrycrafts

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    I have tried and liked SignalCable's single run speaker cable, .

    Now that is difficult to comment on. Your preference is just that. Great post.
    mtrycrafts

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch
    I appreciate your reply Pctower.

    I have been a long time viewer on this forum, and I am aware of the eternal battle between those who can hear the difference, and those who don’t.

    I myself am very skeptical of the difference an “high-end” cable can make to an audio system. Personally I tend to believe in the placebo theory when it comes to very expensive wires. I am curious though of the difference between a cable that is essentially put together with the least amount of cost and care, and those which is designed and constructed with intent.

    I thought the VDH cable is a pretty good starting point. It is a very reasonably priced cable that is designed and constructed for audio use – no more, no less. Yes, I own a pretty low-end, “low rez” system. And yes, I DID hear a difference in Tori Amos’ vocal after I installed the cables. No, the difference isn’t day and night, but it was enough to make her voice sound BETTER.

    So I follow this observation with a thought: if I compare this cable with other cables that are supposingly “better” designed and “better” constructed, at which point will it’s improvement effect tapers off to insignificance, at least to the limit of our senses?

    And will this…. No, CAN this cable cost $15 per foot?

    And no, the Clearwater speaker wire does not come in blue. Please refer to the cable’s name for its colour.
    Ok Arch. You’ve shamed me into getting serious about this.

    I normally avoid trying to give advice, but I’ll give it a shot.

    First, I don’t think I or anyone can really answer your questions. Let’s start with the basics. About the only thing one can say about cables with any degree of certainty, in my opinion, is that no one has ever demonstrated publicly under blind conditions that he is able to distinction between similar cables of similar gauge and length.

    Does that necessarily mean cables don’t matter? I don’t think it does. After all, I personally use after-market cables and have a lot of money invested in my cables.

    However, the inability of anyone to have demonstrated that they can distinguish under blind conditions is profound when viewed in the context of the claims many cable companies make and the statements that people make daily on the web about cables. If someone can’t even demonstrate he can distinguish between two different cables, how can he possible say that X cable sounds better than Y cable, that stranded sounds better than solid, that silver sounds better than copper, etc? In virtually all cases those statements will be based on sighted auditions so that bias has not been eliminated. Moreover, even if he is perceiving real, audible differences, who can say that such differences aren’t due primarily or entirely to the synergy of those particular cables with that particular system?

    So having said all that, my advice to you is to take it slow and make your decisions solely and exclusively on what works for you. I’m perfectly happy with the choices of cables I’ve made based on sighted comparisons. I’ve been at this for over 30 years. Several years ago I built a house in which I gained a dedicated sound-room for the first time. I spent the first year with the new room focusing primarily on room acoustics. The next year was dedicated primarily to equipment changes in the system.

    Then came the year of hell. I tried 20 to 30 different cables in my system and drove myself nuts in the process. Every cable I tried seemed to have it strengths and weaknesses. Where one cable might have extended highs, it would have a truncated sound stage, etc. etc. etc. People here will assure you that any differences I perceived were due entirely to placebo. I personally have a difficult time believing that. I tried cables that ranged widely in price, type and appearance. I tried numerous cables that I had high expectations for based on what others had said, only to be sorely disappointed.

    My final choice was a relatively unknown brand that few people discuss on the web, that was in the middle of the pack price-wise and was far from the prettiest. I had no preconception about that particular cable, nor any great expectations. But to me it was the most neutral, non-obtrusive cable I tried, by a considerable margin. I equipped my system with that company’s middle-of-the-line XLR interconnects and speaker cables (bi-wire – just to stir up some additional trouble here) and have been perfectly happy ever since.

    However, I also use a relatively inexpensive RCA set of cables from a different company between my Marantz 8260 and pre-amp and that combination seriously rivals my much more expensive transport/separate-DAC redbook front end playing through XLR cables to the pre-amp that cost 30 times as much as the RCA interconnects.

    I have three separate digital cables for my redbook front end. One retails for $400, one for $200 and the third for $60. As far as I’m concerned the $60 one walks all over the other two. For the life of me, I have been unable to imagine what factors could be causing me to just imagine the differences between those three cables.

    Of course, many here are rolling on the floor laughing right now because they are sure than I’m as loony as Miss Cleo. I’m sure that some will castigate me severely for contaminating this “pure” board with such subjective talk. They certainly have in the past.

    But all I’m trying to say is that if a particular cable makes an improvement for you, then what should you care what anyone else says? But, I don’t think you can ever predict ahead of time, and I don’t believe anyone call tell you with any certainty that one cable will sound better than another because it costs more or because it has a certain type of construction, or because it is blue rather than red. Nor can anyone with any degree of certainty advise you on price-points and points where you reach a diminishing point of return. For all anyone really knows, you may have already reached that point with you original cables and no real improvement beyond is possible regardless of what you spent.

    However, for you, you found cables costing more did cause a perceived improvement and presumably the new cables have added to your enjoyment of your system, so I would assume you consider the expenditure to have been worthwhile.

    And I assume you will continue to try other cables. But because no one can give you good advice as to what you should or should not be trying and what you should spend, you’ll either have to do cheap DIY and hope for the best, or obtain trial cables from dealers or companies that will either lend them out or who have a liberal return policy.

    Good luck.

  20. #20
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I have found it pointless to discuss subjective experiences with cables here.

    Most people who have tried to discuss subjective experiences regarding cables have given up and gone elsewhere. Just not worth the hassle for them.
    .
    I too find it pointless. The difference between you and me is that I find in pointless here and everywhere else.

    Just think how people discuss their cables. The subjective opinions vary wildly from person to person from system to system. There are groups that may hold one type of cable in high regard while another group may hail another brand. It is admitted by yeasaysers that cables are system dependent along with a host of other factors, personal preferences and listening capabilities included.

    Even if this forum was filled only with people who do believe that great cable improvements are possible, could there be some sort of consensus on anything in particular?

    Or are discussions like this simply a social occasion, a place to find like-minded people and express the enjoyment of this hobby? It seems to me that this is the case seeing as we have no real hard evidence of any cables being better than another other than these subjective anecdotal reports.

    And now for my ridiculous analogy version 44. I see a room full of guys who are sitting at a bar. There are ten different beer taps with different labels but they all connect to the same keg of beer. The beer from each tap is served in its corresponding mug. The guys pass around these ten different mugs and comment on the beer they are tasting. This would appear fairly amusing to the person on the other side of the bar who knows that all the beer is the same. Now one day, we use only the same mug and all of a sudden, the comparisons are confusing. Nobody can tell which beer from which tap they were drinking because their taste buds now don't have the help of the label on the mug.

    Please feel free to come up with an equally ridiculous analogy for naysayers.

    P.S. In relation to my ridiculous analogy, as a naysayer I would say that I don't actually know what is going on behind the bar only that, in my humble opinion, there is only one keg. Differences in taste could be due to temperature differences, dirty mugs, too much head, you get the idea.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I too find it pointless. The difference between you and me is that I find in pointless here and everywhere else.

    Just think how people discuss their cables. The subjective opinions vary wildly from person to person from system to system. There are groups that may hold one type of cable in high regard while another group may hail another brand. It is admitted by yeasaysers that cables are system dependent along with a host of other factors, personal preferences and listening capabilities included.

    Even if this forum was filled only with people who do believe that great cable improvements are possible, could there be some sort of consensus on anything in particular?

    Or are discussions like this simply a social occasion, a place to find like-minded people and express the enjoyment of this hobby? It seems to me that this is the case seeing as we have no real hard evidence of any cables being better than another other than these subjective anecdotal reports.

    And now for my ridiculous analogy version 44. I see a room full of guys who are sitting at a bar. There are ten different beer taps with different labels but they all connect to the same keg of beer. The beer from each tap is served in its corresponding mug. The guys pass around these ten different mugs and comment on the beer they are tasting. This would appear fairly amusing to the person on the other side of the bar who knows that all the beer is the same. Now one day, we use only the same mug and all of a sudden, the comparisons are confusing. Nobody can tell which beer from which tap they were drinking because their taste buds now don't have the help of the label on the mug.

    Please feel free to come up with an equally ridiculous analogy for naysayers.

    P.S. In relation to my ridiculous analogy, as a naysayer I would say that I don't actually know what is going on behind the bar only that, in my humble opinion, there is only one keg. Differences in taste could be due to temperature differences, dirty mugs, too much head, you get the idea.
    There are so many problems with your analogy I wouldn't know where to begin. Suffice it to say that it is based on anecdotal reports of people being fooled, thinking cables or equipment was being changed when it wasn't. There has been much discussed about why that might happen, but virtually no scholarly treatment of the subject as far as I'm aware.

    And I feel no need to come up with a responding analogy for naysayers. I have not enlisted in their army and will let them fight their own battles. I simply try to call it as I see it, regardless of which side may get all huffy.

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    Yeah here, let your own ears guide you. Don't listen to anyone over them!!!
    How's that?
    Remember, different isn't always better, but it is different.
    Keep things as simple as possible, but not too simple.
    Let your ears decide for you!

  23. #23
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    Van Den Hul

    .......Hey Arch.......Can you put me on to their web site? I'd like to take a look at their cables......Zapr

  24. #24
    DIY Dude poneal's Avatar
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    I was thinking of purchasing 3 of these. Would it be a good investment and will it make my system sound better? Thanks.

    http://www.bettercables.com/bltrtauinstp.html

  25. #25
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by poneal
    I was thinking of purchasing 3 of these. Would it be a good investment and will it make my system sound better? Thanks.

    http://www.bettercables.com/bltrtauinstp.html
    .....You got to be kidding me. Not quite what I had in mind. You're not kidding,are you.....Zapr

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