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  • 01-09-2006, 04:15 AM
    Bernd
    Upgrade opinion
    This is just for fun.Maybe.

    Here is the scene. You have a decent cable loom, all from the same manufacturer.
    You are now in a position to upgrade.

    Either you buy one IC which is the top of the line from same manufacturer, or for the same cost, you go for one or two notches up with your whole cable loom (again same manufacturer).

    What would you do?


    The power of music gives you wings.

    Bernd
  • 01-09-2006, 09:08 AM
    Resident Loser
    The first thought...
    ...being a proponent of the "wire-is-wire" school of thought is: WHY?

    Is there something wrong with the current stuff? Or is it merely the notion that it could be somehow "improved" upon?

    That being said, from what I've read, part of the current "wisdom" would seem to indicate that a wholesale upgrading is in order, to realize any significantly noticeable "improvement"; a variant of the old weakest-link theory. On the other hand, any valid A/B listening tests would be difficult, if not entirely impossible, if not done on a piece-part basis.

    If one eschews a complete re-wire using the "lesser" of a particular manufacturers offerings and opts instead for one umbilical that is their "best", following the piece-by-piece practice(as dictated by said cash availability) AND the aforementioned "weakest-link" theory is a valid one, we may not be able to do any "reliable" comparison, since by all reports, cable differences are reportedly (even by most of the ardent of wire proponents) "subtle at best"...wife in the driveway anecdotes not withstanding.

    Then, of course, there are other problems further exacerbated by budgetary considerations. While most hobbyists use this sort of building-block approach in gear upgrades, the timeframe involved in accumulating a complete rewire in this manner(if that is in fact the long-term goal), will, in all probability, preclude any refund from your dealer(assuming such is their practice) should the product(s) not be to your liking...and then of course there's the "break-in" period...so basically you're stuck E-baying your mistake.

    'Tis a vexing problem indeed, luckily it's not mine.

    I only wish I had purchased enough DiscWasher Gold-ens (of the JR vintage) to outfit my entire rig...they'd all match and look so-o-o-o purty...as it happens, the only time I am confronted by this non-sonic shortcoming is when I have occasion to get behind my rack...

    jimHJJ(...which doesn't happen on a regular basis...)
  • 01-09-2006, 10:57 AM
    Bernd
    [QUOTE=Resident Loser]...being a proponent of the "wire-is-wire" school of thought is: WHY?

    Is there something wrong with the current stuff? Or is it merely the notion that it could be somehow "improved" upon?

    That being said, from what I've read, part of the current "wisdom" would seem to indicate that a wholesale upgrading is in order, to realize any significantly noticeable "improvement"; a variant of the old weakest-link theory. On the other hand, any valid A/B listening tests would be difficult, if not entirely impossible, if not done on a piece-part basis.

    If one eschews a complete re-wire using the "lesser" of a particular manufacturers offerings and opts instead for one umbilical that is their "best", following the piece-by-piece practice(as dictated by said cash availability) AND the aforementioned "weakest-link" theory is a valid one, we may not be able to do any "reliable" comparison, since by all reports, cable differences are reportedly (even by most of the ardent of wire proponents) "subtle at best"...wife in the driveway anecdotes not withstanding.

    Then, of course, there are other problems further exacerbated by budgetary considerations. While most hobbyists use this sort of building-block approach in gear upgrades, the timeframe involved in accumulating a complete rewire in this manner(if that is in fact the long-term goal), will, in all probability, preclude any refund from your dealer(assuming such is their practice) should the product(s) not be to your liking...and then of course there's the "break-in" period...so basically you're stuck E-baying your mistake.

    'Tis a vexing problem indeed, luckily it's not mine.

    I only wish I had purchased enough DiscWasher Gold-ens (of the JR vintage) to outfit my entire rig...they'd all match and look so-o-o-o purty...as it happens, the only time I am confronted by this non-sonic shortcoming is when I have occasion to get behind my rack...

    jimHJJ(...which doesn't happen on a regular basis...)[/QUOT

    To me wire is not wire and here is why.
    I did rewire, some years back though, my Rega RB600 with the Incognito (Cardas) wire. It changed the arm beyond belief.Day and night.

    I started with QED Silver Spiral IC and Speakercable which is ok for the price, but as the electronics improved it was found wanting. I borrowed some Audioquest and liked it very much.
    So I went through the range with Audioquest upgrading the whole lot once in a while and could hear improvements.
    I got to Anaconda IC and Mount Blanc Speakerwire and got offered a SKY IC. I bought it and the improvement was not as great as upgrading the whole loom.
    So I bit the bullet and sold the whole Audioquest gear (I am not really taken by Silver cables) and went for a complete Cardas Golden Reference IC and Speakercable investment. I think it was pure Luxury indulgence but boy does it sound sweet.
    Wasn't to keen on the Cardas mains cable, so went with Kimber PK10 + PK14 Palladian. That works great.
    So in a nutshell my experience is it was better to upgrade the lot a small bit rather then one item to the top.
    It could all be about synergy here too.

    Bernd
  • 01-09-2006, 01:14 PM
    JohnMichael
    Bernd, I agree that wire is not just wire. I have IC's and SC's from the following manufacturers. For IC's I own Monster Cable, Alpha Core, Nordost, Audioquest and AR. My SC's consist of Alpha Core, Nordost, Audioquest, Tara Labs and Dayton. As you can see most of my wiring is solid core. Having all that wire around I have tried many combinations and this is what has ended up sounding best to me. My Sony ES cd player is connected to my Int. amp by the Nordost Black Knight. My Rotel outboard phono pre-amp is connected with Alpha Core MicroPurls to the int. amp. I should mention that my RB 250 was rewired with Cardas cable from the Incognito rewire to the pre-amp. Speaker cables at this moment are the Dayton SC's from Parts Express. The Dayton cables are to me similar in sound to the Alpha Core MI1. The MI1 cables develop the soundstage a little behind the plane of the speakers. The Daytons move the soundstage a little more forward. I am more sensitive to the distortion of strand interaction with IC's than I am with SC's. The Dayton's tend to have a little more depth but I wonder of that is not a distortion of stranded cable but it sounds good with that combination. So to get to my point if you are just starting out I would suggest buying all cables from one manufacturer but if you have a collection as I do it might pay to mix and match and make magic.

    If you want to upgrade your cables I would upgrade a preamp to amp cable and your primary source cable first. I have really thrown off my systems balance and synergy by changing too much at once. Then try a speaker cable upgrade. I find it can take as long as a week or two to get to know if a cable is right for your system. If I find myself listening to music while doing something in another room I figure I have selected the wrong cable. When I have the cables right I have a hard time going to another room. If you can hear a difference cables are a good way to balance your system for the best.
  • 01-09-2006, 01:35 PM
    musicoverall
    I agree "wire is wire"
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    So to get to my point if you are just starting out I would suggest buying all cables from one manufacturer but if you have a collection as I do it might pay to mix and match and make magic.

    Wire is wire. Wire is not, for example, an amp or a CD player. :D

    I agree with your premise above, although I just happen to be using Cardas throughout. I don't worry too much about the cable for my tape deck or CD recorder so I use my old Audioquest Coral for those.
  • 01-10-2006, 12:42 AM
    Bernd
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JohnMichael
    Bernd, I agree that wire is not just wire. I have IC's and SC's from the following manufacturers. For IC's I own Monster Cable, Alpha Core, Nordost, Audioquest and AR. My SC's consist of Alpha Core, Nordost, Audioquest, Tara Labs and Dayton. As you can see most of my wiring is solid core. Having all that wire around I have tried many combinations and this is what has ended up sounding best to me. My Sony ES cd player is connected to my Int. amp by the Nordost Black Knight. My Rotel outboard phono pre-amp is connected with Alpha Core MicroPurls to the int. amp. I should mention that my RB 250 was rewired with Cardas cable from the Incognito rewire to the pre-amp. Speaker cables at this moment are the Dayton SC's from Parts Express. The Dayton cables are to me similar in sound to the Alpha Core MI1. The MI1 cables develop the soundstage a little behind the plane of the speakers. The Daytons move the soundstage a little more forward. I am more sensitive to the distortion of strand interaction with IC's than I am with SC's. The Dayton's tend to have a little more depth but I wonder of that is not a distortion of stranded cable but it sounds good with that combination. So to get to my point if you are just starting out I would suggest buying all cables from one manufacturer but if you have a collection as I do it might pay to mix and match and make magic.

    If you want to upgrade your cables I would upgrade a preamp to amp cable and your primary source cable first. I have really thrown off my systems balance and synergy by changing too much at once. Then try a speaker cable upgrade. I find it can take as long as a week or two to get to know if a cable is right for your system. If I find myself listening to music while doing something in another room I figure I have selected the wrong cable. When I have the cables right I have a hard time going to another room. If you can hear a difference cables are a good way to balance your system for the best.

    Hi John,

    Really well put. IYou are right it can take some time to find out if a certain conection works.I also had my Rega RB 600 rewired with the Incognito. And if anybody needed proof that wire does matter this was it. It sounded like a completely different arm after the mod. The new owner of this still has it and feels no need to change. It is an amazing upgrade.
    I always found the Nordost range very well made but a touch on the bright side for my liking. But I can see why that will appeal to many.

    Bernd