Speaker wire for brighter sound?

[Keith C]

Hello markw,

Glad to see that you are still here. After all these years you still sound like the lone voice of reason calling out for people to think and use independant thought. Your gentle and unbashing approach got me to rethink a lot of beliefs that I had adopted that were not my own but really belonged to others. This has saved me a lot of time and money and for this I am very grateful.

Cheers! Keith C.

Bye the way, did eyespy every make his way back here or is he still out racing scooters?

[Woochifer]

Consider this... if you had a pair of elite level speakers, say Dynaudio Temptations, would you use the Radio Shack cable? Are you trying to say that room acoustics would give you the maximum possible performance from such wicked speakers using generic cable? And having great speakers like these, if room acoustics don't solve your problem, would you replace these speakers with ones more suited to your taste??? I sincerely doubt it. You don't need to buy insanely expensive cable either, only one good enough to bring out most of the detail of the speakers. And as I said before, your best component is only as good as your weakest link; you have to find a balance of equipment and interconnects which work optimally with each other, and this is something that can only be learned through experimentation and experience.

Above all else, I'm just trying to get to the bottom line about your original comment, how cable makes a marginal difference; I never once disagreed with you, only tried to say that from the generic stuff to a decent audiophile grade cable, there IS a very noticeable difference, and many things, like room acoustics, clean power and your speakers and source, all play a part in how your system sounds. It's all about finding the perfect balance, and as long as you're happy with your setup regardless, that's all that counts.

If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use. The bottom line is that the magnitude of variation and audible performance problems that a bad room can create are far greater than any differences that cabling can create. You talk about weakest links in an audio system, well, the room IS a part of the audio system because it directly interacts with the sound that gets created. How would a 14 gauge Radio Shack speaker cable be the weakest link in a room with multiple standing wave peaks and cancellations at the listening position, or audible time domain distortions? If you have those kinds of room problems, swapping out the cables will not overcome them, nor will they even be audible in the first place if your room is creating significant alterations to the tonal balance.

I disagree with the premise that it's about optimizing every link in the system. There are simply some parts of the system that have much greater range of variation than others, and those are the aspects that need to be prioritized. Devoting more of the system budget towards room treatments and going with rudimentary cabling will sound a helluva lot better than an untreated room and optimized cabling. That just reflects upon how huge an effect the room has on the sound quality. The cabling simply pales by comparison in the performance variation from one brand/model to another.

[Greekguy]

Wooch, you're right, but you're missing my point. I'm trying to merely state why cable makes a difference for sound quality and detail coming from a speaker, not that cable will solve the problem of room acoustics.

The base argument was that speaker cables make little to no difference, when in fact, depending on what type of cable you're upgrading from, they can, and this is the case I am trying to present. If speaker placement is already optimal, and your speakers still sound hissy and distorted because you're using generic cable, then it's time to consider a cable upgrade, because no amount of moving your speakers around will eliminate hiss and distortion. There's no way that generic braided cable can sound as good as a higher end solid core cable, because of both physics and the material used to make the cable.

As for balancing your system, I'm not saying that it's absolutely necessary to balance every component, but that other areas can be improved upon to get better overall sound quality. Instead of making one big upgrade, say your amplifier or your speakers, you can make small tweaks, like power cords and speaker cable, to enhance the detail of your setup.

[mystic]

If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use. The bottom line is that the magnitude of variation and audible performance problems that a bad room can create are far greater than any differences that cabling can create. You talk about weakest links in an audio system, well, the room IS a part of the audio system because it directly interacts with the sound that gets created. How would a 14 gauge Radio Shack speaker cable be the weakest link in a room with multiple standing wave peaks and cancellations at the listening position, or audible time domain distortions? If you have those kinds of room problems, swapping out the cables will not overcome them, nor will they even be audible in the first place if your room is creating significant alterations to the tonal balance.

I disagree with the premise that it's about optimizing every link in the system. There are simply some parts of the system that have much greater range of variation than others, and those are the aspects that need to be prioritized. Devoting more of the system budget towards room treatments and going with rudimentary cabling will sound a helluva lot better than an untreated room and optimized cabling. That just reflects upon how huge an effect the room has on the sound quality. The cabling simply pales by comparison in the performance variation from one brand/model to another.

I agree that the room is a very important component of a sound system. However, for many listeners making changes to that room to improve the performance of the system is not an option because the room may be a living or sleeping area, and the changes may require unaaceptable alterations to the way the room looks and is used. In these cases, a cable to change the sound might be a reasonable option.

If one is forunate enough to have a room dedicated to listening it makes sense to spend some money on trying to get the room right, rather than spending that money on other components. How much of the budget should go to the room? That's hard to answer. You could go overboard by, for example, by spending ten thousand dollars to optimize a room for five hundred dollars of electronics. However, my guess is most listeners with dedicated rooms don't spend enough on their rooms.

[markw]

If speaker placement is already optimal, and your speakers still sound hissy and distorted because you're using generic cable, then it's time to consider a cable upgrade, because no amount of moving your speakers around will eliminate hiss and distortion.

It's the first part I have problems with. Hiss is caused by an upstream component and distortion could be also, although it could also be a speaker issue. In either case, "hiss and distortion" are not caused by speaker cables.

..sorry...

[Greekguy]

Re-reading it, those weren't the terms I meant to use.... but in any event, one knowledgeable in these things will be able to hear the difference a proper cable change can provide. As I said a few posts up, we could argue about this all day, but the bottom line is that, depending on what kind of a cable change you're making, it can have a big impact, and bring out the most possible detail from your speakers.

As for the guy who took $10 cables and compared them to $1,000 cables and couldn't tell much of the difference, maybe this wasn't a particularly good high-end cable, because I've personally listened to many super high end cables and just absolutely couldn't stand to hear them, whereas my Bedrock cable brings out the full richness of my setup and I certainly noticed a much better improvement in sound quality over the generic stuff. This also proves my point of diminishing returns, and that some cable is better suited to certain setups than others. I've said all along throughout this topic that there's no need to go crazy in spending big bucks on speaker cables, only that if you can get good cable at a good price, it wouldn't hurt, and would certainly improve a system over generic cable.

Not once am I disagreeing with anything you say, with the exception that if speaker placement doesn't solve your woes, change the speakers as a final solution, and nor do I think that cables will solve the problem of room acoustics. You certainly make valid points and they would definitely help anyone in making informed decisions. The original question posted was "can speaker cable make my system brighter", and while it won't make it brighter, using a good cable when upgrading from the generic stuff will definitely make it sound more detailed and fuller.

[bappy]

You are to have a expensive tire Hyndai will not become BMW but to get the 100% performance out of Hyndai or any other in that matter you do need to get good tyre and good oil etc. Otherwise the car will remain to perform in it's optimal performance.
You do know what I mean.

bappy

[markw]

You are to have a expensive tire Hyndai will not become BMW but to get the 100% performance out of Hyndai or any other in that matter you do need to get good tyre and good oil etc. Otherwise the car will remain to perform in it's optimal performance.
You do know what I mean.

bappy

If so, then I respectfully disagree. My reasons were stated pretty plainly above, several times.

If not, then you, and greekguy are still discussing a different issue entirely that was not a part of this thread. It's like the only tool you have is a hammer so every solution looks like a nail. ...either that, or you're preaching on a streetcorner.

[E-Stat]

If you have issues with room acoustics (and the vast majority of people do), then it won't matter one iota what cables you use.

That simply isn't true. While room acoustics are certainly important, better cables of all sorts can improve resolution throughout the range.

A matter of priorities perhaps.

rw

[musicoverall]

musicoverall - this is what I've been trying to say all along, but it seems that very few understand what I'm trying to say. Everything has to be balanced overall, and even without taking room acoustics into consideration, going from braided 12 gauge to solid core cable will certainly make a difference. Refer back to my point about speaker cable upgrades being the equivalent of taking a BMW 3 Series and making it an M3 - it's taking what's already good and tweaking it to make it better.

The root I'm trying to get at is, what started the initial debate about all this was that cable upgrades would have little to no impact on sound - depending on just what kind of an upgrade you're making, this may or may not be true. Going from Future Shop's crappiest to, say, AQ Slate, will have a much bigger impact than going from Slate to Nordost Valhalla; in the latter case, diminishing returns. You also have to take into account that some cable will sound better with certain amp / speaker combos than others, and the only real way to tell is through experimentation. Saying that cable upgrades may have little to no impact is like saying that twin turbo in a car may have little to no difference over single turbo... depending on the engine of the car and how much extra horsepower it gets, it may or may not make a big difference, and it's the same for audio, it's contingent on what kind of amp and speakers you've got. The question is how much of an improvement and at what price is one willing to accept.

The only thing I don't agree with markw on is when speaker placement doesn't accomplish what you're out to accomplish, buy new speakers... if you have Dynaudio Temptations hooked up to crap cables, and room acoustics don't solve your problem, what do you do, go buy Evidence Masters??? No, you buy better cables.

This point can be debated until we all turn blue in the face, and there's tons of things one can do to improve overall sound, whether it be cable upgrades, power upgrades, speaker placement, new amplifier, putting your speakers on spikes or whatever else. What it comes down to is that the average person doesn't have the time or money to investigate all the possibilities, so whether cable upgrades should be considered as a starting point or not all depends on the type of cable and equipment and whether or not the speakers are already in their ideal placement. Bottom line, if you've readily got the money and can score good cables at a bargain price, it's certainly not going to hurt. When you then ensure that your setup is balanced and all things, such as room acoustics have been accounted for, and you can't squeeze anything further out of your system, it's then you invest in upgrades.

...that we agree much more than we disagree.

First, I think room acoustics need to be in order, once you've got your main system in place. Unfortunately, room acoustics need to be maximized to a particular system, IME. Changing speakers, for example, caused me to have to tweak my room - which I did first before considering cable changes.

My point was that cables should not make one's system sound "brighter". Quite honestly, I've not heard much in the way of FR changes from cable. When I have, I've discarded that cable from my short list. I do not use cables as tone controls. At least with the cables I've used most, I've found the changes more in the midrange... and with better coherency, blacker backgrounds, more precise imaging and wider, deeper soundstaging. The Cardas cables I use are incredible in these parameters.

I completely agree with your final statement. That is when I auditioned higher definition cables... once all else was accounted for. I wouldn't have maximized my investment in cables had I not taken care of the rest first.

[musicoverall]

That simply isn't true. While room acoustics are certainly important, better cables of all sorts can improve resolution throughout the range.

A matter of priorities perhaps.

rw

A friend of mine bought new speakers and before readjusting his room acoustics, also bought new cables, which he had intended to do a year or so before the new speakers. He never could get the sound he wanted... the sound he heard while auditioning the speaker at the salon, try as he might.

He then tweaked his room, using all sorts of meters and measurements. The sound improved but still wasn't quite right.

A few months later, I stopped by and listened and said "Wow! You really fixed that room problem. What was it?"

His fix was a third set of cables. He said "If I had only tweaked the room before I bought the Audioquest, I would have passed them over and bought the Nordost in the first place!"

The cables didn't fix the room problem but once the room acoustics were fixed, the original cable simply didn't do the job he wanted. Expensive boo-boo!