• 02-04-2004, 10:05 PM
    Tony_Montana
    So is there no middle ground between yea and naysayers?
    Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

    The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D
  • 02-04-2004, 10:58 PM
    okiemax
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

    The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D

    What are you talking about, Tony? My audiophile powercord works real well with my coat hanger interconnects and my zip cord speaker wire held off the carpet with homemade risers. And I don't need a stinkin power conditioner messing up the sounds of my "perfect forever CD's." Seriously, there may be disagreement on what's extreme and what's not, with the middle being like, mmm .. say the middle of a circle or a jelly-filled donut. Excuse me, I'm hungry.
  • 02-05-2004, 01:08 AM
    happy ears
    Middle Ground, what's that
    No there is not much middle ground when it comes to cables just extremes. In my limited experience and I mean limited, I have heard some minor differences between cables, not always just sometimes. At least when I repeat the test I get the same results between the cables. Never heard any night or day differences that is for sure.

    When I listen for differences I tend to use music sections that only have one instrument playing with as much range as possible. Complicated, busy or music with much information makes it extremely difficult to hear any differences, just to much going on for me to tell. Like I said at times I have heard small differences. I do not even think about a blind test unless I can here some differences, why even go through extra trouble unless there is something to test.

    Now I have been told that my testing procedures are flawed and not up to the standards. I actually use a simple system, one CD player with “Y” adapters on the output and then two different cables from the adapters to my headphone amplifier which has volume control and three selectable inputs. Just sit there with the CD remote pick a section of music play it over and over and over again, while using the selector switch on the headphone amplifier to listen to differences between two sets of cables. I do realize that since I hooked it up I know what cable I am listening to, but the more expensive one has not always been better. Why would this be when people tell me that I am expecting the more exotic one to be better. If I can hear a difference I get my son to hook up the cables and cover the wires, all I then know is what positions to select. If I can still hear a difference I will try it with my stereo which I even hear less of a change, but this is due to the speakers, the weak link in my system. Like I said, at times at I can hear small changes and I do mean small. This is not a double blind test, it was conducted to prove or disprove are there any differences for myself.

    Reasons I have been told why my tests are flawed.
    1. I know which cable I am testing. True but the argument that I will favor the more expensive cable has failed in my tests. If there is no difference I feel there is no use doing a blind test.
    2. The louder system always sounds better. I do not agree with this general statement but it is irrelevant as I am only using one source. If there was any noticeable volume difference I sure didn’t notice it, outside a flawed cable the only other reason would be that one cable acts like an attenuator. Like I need one of those cables, better get the cables with the built in tone controls and they better be adjustable.
    3. The headphone amplifier uses tubes and everyone knows that tubes roll off the top end. First off it really doesn’t matter as I am using the same source and amp. If tubes are so bad give me tubes, for this little tube headphone amplifier has far surpassed any headphone outputs on any CD player or Integrated amplifier that I have owned or used. Again it is very limited amount of equipment that I have played with at my freedom.
    4. Your CD players has tube output. Same reasons as #3. Also can use a similar model with all solid state components. Odd get the same results, even with the radio but less noticeable.
    5. Best to use tape out to compare cables. This does not work with my integrated amplifier because the tape loop has a bigger affect on sound than any cable I have used. Buffer stage or what ever is going on inside affects the sound, the cable on the tape loop would always sound inferior. So much for making great copies off these outputs.

    There have been other reasons given but they just get silly. Twenty years ago I just laughed at people that said cables can make a difference. I bought all mine at Radio Shack, never checked Wal-Mart, to busy most of the time for me. All I can say that I have changed my beliefs. Where in priorities should you list cables, well first of course from the bottom of the list. When the list is done take a pencil and draw a line through the word “cables”, when everything else on the list has been done then go have a look. For those that want to buy the best so be it, but not all of use can afford the best. For those that do not hear any differences I would buy the cheaper ones at radio shack. Some people truly do not hear differences, saw this many years ago when I was young. Although the person liked listening to music he swore that he could not hear the difference between the cheapest and most expensive systems. He bought purely what was on sale and looked nice to him, gotta have some criteria when buying something.

    Just like CD versus Vinyl, I see positive and negatives with both formats. However, this is like comparing apples and oranges, I like both of them but apples are more convenient in my eyes and hands. Personally, I prefer vinyl it just does more for me even with the occasional pop, crackle and hiss. Oh yeah, just bought a used Michell turntable just slightly better than the Dual I had. Shouldn’t look at the nicer stuff, although it looks sharp the sound improvement in one word “WOW” and I even robbed the cartridge that I had on the dual. Give me that distortion. Shouldn’t the discussion between CD or Vinyl be compared to those big old tape machines for I believe the surpass both vinyl and CD.

    Well just finished listening to Dvorak, a selection of Slavonic Dances by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. What’s that I am feeling, yes it is, the big Z that’s Led Zeppelin for those Classical lovers. Bad news Skeptic Rock and Roll is here to stay, it just will not die, it changes for better or worse but it is here to stay. Even worse it could be around almost as long as classical music, the good news is that I believe classical music will be around hundreds of years after our deaths. You cannot force people to listen to the music you like, you can only show them what they have not heard. I just wish that I could remember some of the music I have heard in weird locations for my collection no matter how large it is will also be missing music that I will like.

    Have A Great Day and enjoy the music, life is to short
  • 02-05-2004, 03:35 AM
    skeptic
    "Bad news Skeptic Rock and Roll is here to stay, it just will not die"

    Do you think I would be grateful if it were dead?

    "No there is not much middle ground when it comes to cables just extremes"

    The middle ground lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. It's a region we call "The Twilight Zone."

    Is there a middle ground between the so called yea sayers and the so called nay sayers? Well there are the "may sayers." That's me. I remain to be convinced that cables make a difference. But I'm a hard one to sell. Maybe the hardest on this board. Because I not only demand to be shown objective evidence that some cables will make a sound system sound different than others, but that they will make it sound better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any cheaper or more effective way. I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash.

    Do different cables have different electrical properties? There can be no doubt of that. Even two random production samples of the same cable made by the same manufacturer will test differently. Will they sound different? Is the difference an improvement? Is there a better way to obtain the same improvement? Is it something I should want to buy? In more than twenty years since I've seen this category of products on the market, they have proliferated, the most expensive have gotten ever more expensive, the sales have soared, but I'm still waiting for some hard convincing evidence. And from what I expect, I will have a long time to wait if I ever expect to get a sensible answer.
  • 02-05-2004, 04:09 AM
    happy ears
    Yes the May Sayers
    "but that they will make it sound better and that the improvement cannot be obtained in any cheaper or more effective way"

    Making it sound better is subjective for each of us but that would be the goal. Yes I do agree that it should be cheaper by a lot, maybe if we could figure what causes this slight difference then we would also know how to do cheaply.

    "I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash. "

    Like I said way to much, it would be nice if the seller produced some tangable results. I do not think we will not see this for a long while. What and how something will sound we only really find out when we get it home and use, but with cables I can say this is very small compared to other components.

    "Do you think I would be grateful if it were dead?"

    Couldn't tell, do not really care. I just think that when it comes to what type of music is irrelevant, but music is the reason for all of this. The more I hear, the more I want and it just doesn't end. It's all related but it's all different to me, sort of like the more I learn the less I really know.

    Where and how does everyone store there ever increasing music collection? Use a seperate room?

    Enjoy the Music
  • 02-05-2004, 05:12 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    I also demand a way to know in advance whether and to what degree the difference will affect MY system. That's a tough one when someone is asking for hundreds or even thousands on blind faith and testimonial evidence alone. And the burden of proof rests squarely on the seller who wants my money, not on the nay sayer who says don't waste your time or your cash.

    Cables aside, do you find the seller of any component in an audio chain able to do that for you? And I gather you mean hard written scientifically proven fact. That which cannot be done with listening tests done in home trials at your abode.

    rw
  • 02-05-2004, 05:18 AM
    skeptic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Cables completely aside, do you find the seller of any component in an audio chain able to do that for you? Cartridges, arms, TTs, CDPs, tape units, tuners, preamps, power amps, speakers, surround gadgets whatever?

    rw

    The setup in many dealers' showrooms allows for reasonably rapid switching and comparison between one speaker and another, one receiver and another, one cd player or turntable and another. What do they offer in a way to compare these cables one against another?

    Equipment manufacturers publish specifications and most audiophiles have at least a rudimentary understanding of what those specifications mean. I'd say most audiophiles would be aware that you aren't going to drive an 83 db @1w/1m loudspeaker satisfactorily with a 7 watt class A amplifier or that you don't need a 200 wpc amplfier to drive high efficiency horn speakers. But what about cables? How do you know which one to buy? Let's assume you have decided that you definitely want to put some money into them because you are convinced you could hear an improvement. On what basis would you make your selection? Dealer recommendation? Price? A friend's recommendation? Certainly not on the recommendation of someone on an internet chat board. Oh you mean there aren't any shills out there posting? What specs to do you go on or even start with to narrow down the vast choices?

    If you are an electrical engineer and have a good working knowledge of network analysis, you could take LCR specifications for cables if they were available, and measurements for the complex impedence of your amplifier and loudspeakers, and calculate the minute difference from one cable to another in terms of overall frequency response of the system. Just about nobody does that and at least 99% of audiophiles couldn't if they wanted to. But what would that give you? A few tenths of a db difference at 20 Khz from one to another? Is that all there is to it? Just a little extra high end boost? Is that what I'm being asked to spend my money on? If there is more to it, what is it? And don't just give me testimonials about clearer sound, better sound stage, firmer bass, etc. Prove it.
  • 02-05-2004, 05:19 AM
    pctower
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    Some members here (PCtower) and at CA (Steve Eddy)-as I am sure there are others-don't believe firmly in either camps and repute views expressed in both extreme venues. They believe the truth lies some where in between.

    The question is if we cut away extremism on both camps (ie.. cable breakin or PowerCord on one side, or using $1 cable/coathanger for IC on the other), will there be more issues everybody can agree on, or are both camps are so polarized that even main stream issues-such as Power Conditioner or Digital Jitter-will be polarized??...as if it is not already :D

    I can't speak for Steve, but just to clarify, I really don't know where the truth lies. All I know with reasonable certainty is that nobody seems to have ever demonstrated publicly under blind conditions that they can distinguish between similar cables of similar gauge and length. The only possible exception to that may be Professor Philip Greenspun at MIT who published a report of tests yielding positives in an MIT journal called the Computer Music Journal. But he concedes that test was only single blind.
  • 02-05-2004, 07:47 AM
    rb122
    Ah, a question I can answer!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by happy ears
    "
    Where and how does everyone store there ever increasing music collection? Use a seperate room?

    Enjoy the Music

    The LP's have their own room - about 4000 of them. One of the things I like about the CD over the LP is its compact size. I have about 4000 CD's also and, except for LP-sized boxed sets, the rest take up a space of about 4' H, 8' W and 4' D. First I buy vinyl sleeves for the CD's and remove the discs and all paperwork from the plastic jewel cases. Then I bought two tupperware-like tubs normally used for storing tools or silverware or whatever. The CD's are then loaded, two rows per drawer, six drawers per tub. the sleeves cut my storage needs by about 2/3. No, I can't see the titles without flipping through the discs (they are loaded front cover towards me) but I do have them all alphabetized. No, it doesn't look nice but it is an effective way to maximize the number of discs in a minimum of space. The two tubs go into the closet of my spare bedroom, the room itself lined floor to ceiling with LP's. Anybody need spare jewel cases? I still have a box of them in the garage with a few thousand in the box. :)

    I appreciate good sound, but it pales in comparison to good music!
  • 02-05-2004, 08:21 AM
    kexodusc
    You've got 4000 CD's and 4000's LP's?
    Why? At 40 minutes an album you'd have to listen to music for something like 10 hours a day just to hear them all once a year!
    My local music store has a selection of about 2800 CD albums.
    That's nuts man, how would you one CD if you were looking for it? God forbid you ever put one in the wrong jewel case!!!

    Any plans for a yard sale soon??? :)
  • 02-05-2004, 08:26 AM
    Rockwell
    Not to mention that number of albums would cost roughly $100000.
  • 02-05-2004, 08:35 AM
    RobotCzar
    Tony,

    What would the "middle ground" look like? If the question is "Can people hear differences in cables" the answer is yes. But, if the question is "Do people hear differences in cables made for home audio systems in using their systems?" Then it seems to me that we should answer this question "no" until someone demonstrates that they can.

    "Middle ground" always seem like a nice idea, a compromise, not an "extreme". But, there are somethings that are either true or false or that are supported by the evidence or are not (e.g., evolution vs. creationism).

    From another perspective, it is more legitimate to ask "what matters most" or what factors are important for getting good (or excellent) sound reproduction in the home? It is a disservice to take a middle position on cables as there is no real evidence that they make ANY audible difference (even though mearsured differences exist).

    Finally, one must consider the status quo, which--in home audio-- is so full of misrepresentations and outright false information. Many things taken as "fact" by high end audiophiles are simply not true, and they won't admit it. Under these circumstances, it is better for those trying to bring so clarity to the field to take a more firm position than they would if condictions were different. Given current contiditons in the audio world, it is most helpful to beginners if we simply summarize by saying "Cables don't matter in regard to what you hear" and leave it at that.
  • 02-05-2004, 09:36 AM
    rb122
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    You've got 4000 CD's and 4000's LP's?
    Why? At 40 minutes an album you'd have to listen to music for something like 10 hours a day just to hear them all once a year!
    My local music store has a selection of about 2800 CD albums.
    That's nuts man, how would you one CD if you were looking for it? God forbid you ever put one in the wrong jewel case!!!

    Any plans for a yard sale soon??? :)

    True but if I wanted to listen to a particular disc or musician, I would only need to go to my bins and find it rather than have to do without. And I'm very anal about putting the discs back in the proper cases! VERY anal :). No, I don't listen to everything once a year - some I rarely listen to, but I never get rid of anything.

    As for the cost, yes it was high but I bought most of the stuff used. I just found a nice selection of about 400 LP's I bought from a neighbor lady for the princely sum of $100. It seems that they belonged to her son who was killed in a car wreck several years ago - and no, I didn't take advantage of her! She wanted to give them to me. The music is mostly rock with a dab of classical thrown in. And please excuse my misprint - I have 2000 CD's, not 4000. I must have had 4000 on the brain. I only buy CD's these days if I can't find the music on vinyl - which is sadly a common occurrence. And there are others on this board whose collection make me look like a piker. Lastly, my good friend, if I COULD listen to music 10 hours a day, I would, but I'm lucky if I can get in three.
  • 02-05-2004, 10:21 AM
    kexodusc
    Dang you :P
    Am I ever jealous...I have healthy collection of about 200LP's, 300 CD's, 12 8-tracks, and 100 cassettes give or take a few of each...
    4000 albums...I'd never be bored again. You are my new hero!!! :)
  • 02-05-2004, 11:05 AM
    rb122
    Hero?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by kexodusc
    Am I ever jealous...I have healthy collection of about 200LP's, 300 CD's, 12 8-tracks, and 100 cassettes give or take a few of each...
    4000 albums...I'd never be bored again. You are my new hero!!! :)

    ha ha! Thanks! Actually, I'm just highly motivated and poor so I seek out good stuff at the local Goodwill's and garage sales. Many of the LP's are somewhat worn but even many of the ones with a lot of noise still have that musical presence that I just can't find on CD. But I've made quite a few large purchases with very little money. There are plenty of used CD shops that help keep me up to date on a budget and I occasionally stretch out and, sweating profusely, buy that new disc at close to full retail. Check your local Goodwill for great deals on used vinyl. I still haven't made it through all the 400 LP's I just bought but the lady threw in her son's Discwasher so he was concerned about their playability. There is very little surface noise on these LP's. Just lucky - I'm certainly no hero. :)

    You have 8-tracks? Do you have a working player? I've heard so much about them but I postdate that era. Did they at least sound passable or were they mostly just the format for cars?
  • 02-05-2004, 11:29 AM
    kexodusc
    Well, I have 2 very crappy 8-track players...One by Technics that weighs a ton (and might be good for all I know) and one by Yorx.
    I'm not too impressed with the format compared to LP's and CD's, but it would give cassettes a run for their money. I haven't listened to them in probably 2 years now as I'm hoping they'll be worth something to the right moron someday.
  • 02-05-2004, 12:08 PM
    mtrycraft
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pctower
    The only possible exception to that may be Professor Philip Greenspun at MIT who published a report of tests yielding positives in an MIT journal called the Computer Music Journal. But he concedes that test was only single blind.

    Is this on line? Available another way? How long is it to scan and email?
  • 02-05-2004, 01:36 PM
    bturk667
    What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables. Let those who believe that cables are nothing more that audio bull$hit, believe it. Let those who believe they do make a difference, like me, go on doing so.

    I'm happy with the choices that I have made. I love my cables, long live Nordost!!!

    Lastly, for those who are on the fence or just don't know, let your own ears guide you. Trust them before you trust anyone from either camp. After all it is your money, spend it as you see fit.
  • 02-05-2004, 02:57 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    The setup in many dealers' showrooms allows for reasonably rapid switching and comparison between one speaker and another, one receiver and another, one cd player or turntable and another.

    Isn't that just flawed sighting testing subject to all the human foibles?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    But what about cables? How do you know which one to buy? Let's assume you have decided that you definitely want to put some money into them because you are convinced you could hear an improvement.

    I began with reviews from knowledgeable sources (I happen to know both of them and have heard theirs systems) and a dealer in whom I could trust. I did not, however, begin with the assumption that I would hear a difference. I have a deep love of music and some disposable income and if I found audible differences, then I would weigh that decision appropriately. I have no desire to spend money just to spend money. My comparisons were done in what I believe to be a better environment for me to discern what differences exist (or do not as the case may be): my own system. The "overpriced" cables in my system were only purchased after weeks of comparisons weighing what I heard. How is that worse than quick audio cowboy showroom switching on unfamiliar gear in an unfamiliar setting?


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    But what would that give you? A few tenths of a db difference at 20 Khz from one to another? Is that all there is to it? Just a little extra high end boost? Is that what I'm being asked to spend my money on?

    Your response assumes that such measurements fully describe the world in which they are asked to perform. There is more to the (subtle) differences I hear than a tipped up (or down) high end response. Perhaps my system is simply more sensitive to others based on the component mix. I use passive attenuators from CDP to amps because I find there to be a significant difference in clarity, definition, image width, and dynamic range with bypassing the otherwise superflous active preamp stage. The Audio Research unit is nice, but not perfect. I use tube power amps driving electrostatic speakers, another situation known to be more challenging than others.


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by skeptic
    If there is more to it, what is it?

    I honestly have no idea.

    rw
  • 02-05-2004, 04:10 PM
    Tony_Montana
    Middle road vs extremes.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables.


    I guess what I was saying is that if we get rid of views that don't have any objective/scientific backing (such as cable breakins or silver vs Copper) and concentrate on subjects that do have some type of scientific credentials (such as zip vs star quad speaker cables), then would there be still as much bickering over cable subject.

    It seem to me that cable flame wars really escalate when subject are on either extreme end and nobody seem to agree on anything. If cut out the extreme views (such as JR on one side or Mtry on the other..sorry Mtry, just trying to prove a point :D) and move it to middle ground, we may have more people on both sided agree with each other more.

    I think Jneutron might be a good example of "middle of road" approach views :)
  • 02-06-2004, 07:40 AM
    Lowdef
    To me there are only two groups of people on this site.

    1. People that can hear differences between cables and

    2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

    No middle ground needed, just honesty!
  • 02-06-2004, 07:48 AM
    skeptic
    You still have not said how you made your selection except to limit your choices to a few products someong else recommended.

    "Your response assumes that such measurements fully describe the world in which they are asked to perform."

    Much of my formal education was devoted to understanding the mathematical analysis of giants like Laplace and Fourier who built on the work of other mathematical giants Newton and Leibnitz. The notion that the electrical behavior of any electronic component including wire can't be fully explained by the electronic testing and mathematical waveform analysis of the results is a myth that flies in the face of the expertise of the very people who design them. This is a pure myth among non technical people. But if they must insist on the rediculous, why don't they at least have some evidence that if these differences can't be measured, they can be proven by listeners blindly selecting them by sound alone? The answer I've given many times before is that they have no need to. They sell their products without proof or even real and convincing evidence of any kind. In fact, they have an incentive not to perform such tests because the outcome could only hurt their sales, not help it and believe me, they know it all too well.
  • 02-06-2004, 10:47 AM
    Monstrous Mike
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lowdef
    1. People that can hear differences between cables...

    I think this should be rewritten to become: "1. People who claim to hear differences but cannot show it under controlled conditions. Aslo included in this group are people who do definitely perceive differences but cannot prove it is because of a cable change.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lowdef
    2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

    That is simply ridiculous. Besides all people have likely heard some differences, as I have, between cables. But this is because the cable was not proper for the intended function or signal or it was defective.

    Nice try....
  • 02-06-2004, 02:55 PM
    Beckman
    ?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Lowdef
    To me there are only two groups of people on this site.

    1. People that can hear differences between cables and

    2. People that will not admit to hearing differences between cables ( for whatever their reasons ).

    No middle ground needed, just honesty!

    Well that clears everthing up for me.;)
  • 02-06-2004, 03:15 PM
    Beckman
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bturk667
    What I don't understand is why must there be a middle ground. I mean, we are only talking about cables. Let those who believe that cables are nothing more that audio bull$hit, believe it. Let those who believe they do make a difference, like me, go on doing so.

    I'm happy with the choices that I have made. I love my cables, long live Nordost!!!

    Lastly, for those who are on the fence or just don't know, let your own ears guide you. Trust them before you trust anyone from either camp. After all it is your money, spend it as you see fit.

    I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

    I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.