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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckman
    I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

    I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.
    "I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow."

    Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement.

    "They can only here (sic) no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics."

    POLL: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

    STRIKE THAT: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE CAN EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT SENTENCE WHICH HAS BEEN SO CAREFULLY CONSTRUCTED BY THIS MAN WHO THINKS "WITH REASON"?

    "Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords."

    I have. YUK!

    "Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason."

    I highly recommend that you consider joining the latter group.

    "I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty."

    That's priceless. Now in addition to believing the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth, yeasayers are dishonest?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckman
    I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow. Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords. They can only here no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics. Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason.

    I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty.
    Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.
    Last edited by okiemax; 02-06-2004 at 08:12 PM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I think this should be rewritten to become: "1. People who claim to hear differences but cannot show it under controlled conditions. Aslo included in this group are people who do definitely perceive differences but cannot prove it is because of a cable change.


    All the proving I need is to myself, if I perfer one cable over another, it's for a reason. (might be because I like the sound from one over the other). Why do I have to prove it to anyone else. Your not the one listening to my system, I am!

    That is simply ridiculous. Besides all people have likely heard some differences, as I have, between cables. But this is because the cable was not proper for the intended function or signal or it was defective.

    Nice try....
    Well least you admit to hearing some differences, I guess every cable dosn't sound the same after all. ( Hmm, I hope all my cables are not defective then and maybe I shouldn't have them connected to the microwave)

  4. #29
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    You still have not said how you made your selection except to limit your choices to a few products someong else recommended.
    If a cable, or for that matter, any component brings me closer to what I perceive to be a live performance, then I choose that component. You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. I disagree with the degree of your pessimism, but overall agree with the sentiment. So, what is the cause of the difference? Cables are perfect. 70's SS electronics are perfect. 80's box speakers are perfect. The RBCD standard is perfect. If everything is perfect, then where is the missing 100% of the live experience?


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The notion that the electrical behavior of any electronic component including wire can't be fully explained by the electronic testing and mathematical waveform analysis of the results is a myth that flies in the face of the expertise of the very people who design them
    I didn't say cannot. I said has not. For a long time, there were those who actually believed that one could evaluate the musical performance of an amplifier simply by looking at it's (averaged) THD performance. Then they learned better with better measurements.

    rw

  5. #30
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    Now it is you who misquoted me. You quoted me as saying; "You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. "

    This is what I actually said. If the accuracy of a sound system is judged by its ability to reproduce a convincing facsimile of the auditory experience of hearing a live performance in a concert hall, then on a scale of 0 to 100 where 100 means that even experienced listeners who are frequent concert goers would be convinced practically every single time and where 0 means that practically all musically disinterested people with normal hearing would identify that they were hearing the reproduction of a recording by a machine immediately, then the best the current state of the art has to offer are sound systems which would rate 0. In other words, after more than 100 year of sound reproduction technology, the goal of recreating the experience of a live concert is well beyond what can be achieved today. The culprit is the inability to reproduce or even understand the crucial and overwhelming role the acoustics of the location of the performance plays in the experience. This does not mean that individual instruments or even groups of instruments or singers cannot be accurately reproduced when the reproducing equipment is located in the same venue as the performance. In other words, when it comes to hearing a musical performance in your home, the technology can do a good job of "they are here" but fails completely when it come to "you are there." And unfortunately the experience of having a symphony orchestra in your listening room if it were physically possible is not satisfactory.

    The more you delve into the problem, the more you see the difficulty. I'm not going into the technical reasons now but it is sufficient form me to say that 30 years ago this month, I solved the mathematical and electrical aspects surrounding this problem, have patented the solution, found nobody interested in it, realize that it is utterly impractical for use in most homes, and have played with it as an idle curiousity on and off ever since. When put in this context, consideration of whatever miniscule improvement might be available from expensive audio cables is laughable.

  6. #31
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    Wow

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    "I think the cable discussion on this forum is driven more by peoples egos than anything else. Knowing that you wasted hundreds of dollars on a piece of audio equipment that is a fluke is a hard pill to swallow."

    Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement.

    "They can only here (sic) no difference or an improvement according to the laws of physics."

    POLL: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT?

    STRIKE THAT: HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE CAN EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT SENTENCE WHICH HAS BEEN SO CAREFULLY CONSTRUCTED BY THIS MAN WHO THINKS "WITH REASON"?

    "Anyone that owns high end cables should try using 12 AWG zip cords."

    I have. YUK!

    "Then again some people think with their emotions and some think with reason."

    I highly recommend that you consider joining the latter group.

    "I started off as a Yeasayer, but turned into a naysayer through experiance and honesty."

    That's priceless. Now in addition to believing the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around the earth, yeasayers are dishonest?
    I appologize for my statements. In the future I will try to be less offensive when voicing my opinions.

  7. #32
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    Good Point

    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.
    Good point. Who am I to say cables make no differance. People should read up on cables from people that know what they are talking about. Then judge for themselves what cables to use.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckman
    I appologize for my statements. In the future I will try to be less offensive when voicing my opinions.
    Oh no. You're the second guy this week on this board who had made me look bad by posting a civil response to my rantings.

    I was just trying to have some fun, probably at your expense. I apologize if I went too far. I have a difficult time taking most of this stuff seriously, yet I've gotten hooked on watching the never-ending, never-changing Cable Wars unfold year after year.

    BTW, I agree with you that there's a lot of ego wrapped up in all of this. It's not just consumers, it's also the designers and manufacturers. But, from what I have observed, ego problems are not the exclusive province of that side of the argument. Some of the naysayers seem to get a little too wedded to their positions from what I've seen.

    Why, some might even contend that those who merely observe the Cable Wars and are constantly commenting on the foibles of both sides have the worst ego problem of all.

  9. #34
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    "Other than me and possibly E-stat (who only started posting here recently), can you name any other person who posts here who has "hundreds of dollars" invested in cable? I didn't realize that I alone had the power to be the main person driving the conversation here. Thank you for the huge boost to my EGO. It was in sore need of reinforcement."

    Before you get too smug PC, I would remind you that prior to Woodman revealing him as a racist and his subsequent departure, Jameson Davenport Briggs III likely had more money tied up in cables at the Caribou Compound in Maine than you have invested in your entire sound system. A thirty thousand dollar turntable didn't mean spit to him. As America's number one audiophile, money was no object and only the finest would do. People with that much money and that much interest eat Vandersteen V speakers and Rolland amplifiers for lunch. To them those are the equivalent of a table radio to the average person. So beware. No matter what you own, how much you've invested in it, or how great you think it is, there is always someone out there who makes your prized possessions look and feel like Salvation Army Store rejects.

  10. #35
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    "Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?"

    There are guarantees and guarantees. Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use. Then there is "your money cheerfully refunded if for any reason you are dissatisfied with your purchase within the first thirty days." Now that's a guarantee you can feel safe with assuming it isn't from a guy who stands on the corner with a pile of audio cables hanging in one side of his coat and a pile of fake Rollex watches in the other.

    Where do you go to read up on cables? Do you read about them in magazines who count their manufacturers among their advertisers? Do you take out a text in electrical engineering and learn how to solve second order differential equations? Do you read the manufacturers' advertising literature?

    Since everyone is an expert, which expert should you choose? Well perhaps you should choose John Curl who claims that the greatest difference he could find was between minus 120 and minus 135 db of the seventh harmonic of 5 khz for noise and distortion. Or perhaps you should read Jon Risch who says you can't hear any difference unless you own a "high resolution" sound system (guess that lets me out) and even then you should "roll your own." Of course, even to understand the advertising propaganda, you need special knowledge. One guy talks about strand jumping of electrons, another about the "Fermi Velocity" of electrons, and another about having no crystal boundaries in the metal.) You can read about the number and size of strands, the configuration of strands, whether the conductors should be oxygen free copper or sliver, how many twists there should or shouldn't be, what kind of insulation is ok and what kind isn't because of "dielcteric memory." Each guy who sells this stuff has his own angle on it. So if you read every single one of them you will be so busy you will never get to buy anything because by the time you get done, new people will come along with a whole new set of ideas and reasons why theirs is the best and all of the others are no good. See? Reading does pay off after all.

  11. #36
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Here is the problem, E-Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    If a cable, or for that matter, any component brings me closer to what I perceive to be a live performance, then I choose that component. You commented sometime back that as compared with the live performance of a symphony, the best systems today get about zero percent of the way there. I disagree with the degree of your pessimism, but overall agree with the sentiment. So, what is the cause of the difference? Cables are perfect. 70's SS electronics are perfect. 80's box speakers are perfect. The RBCD standard is perfect. If everything is perfect, then where is the missing 100% of the live experience?



    I didn't say cannot. I said has not. For a long time, there were those who actually believed that one could evaluate the musical performance of an amplifier simply by looking at it's (averaged) THD performance. Then they learned better with better measurements.

    rw
    I have several points for you. The first part of your post is quite correct. You buy what you want, what you can afford, what sounds best to you, etc. Nobody can argue against that. That is your personal right and your personal taste.

    The problem begins when we start analyzing these components, like cables. There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord. It is just an ad copy. As well, since there is currently no valid scientific testing for conclusive evidence of cables sonics, it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables. That has always been true and will continue to be true forever. The hard part is figuring out where the mistakes, errors and omissions are and neither you nor I can conclude that there are unknown parameters in cable physics. It may or may not be so.

    So we are fine if we stick to our basic positions. Yours is that you have bought components, brought them home and enjoyed them from your perspective. I have not seen any proof that specific cables are better than one and another but that also does not mean it is not so. The problems begin when we try to extend our position. For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?

    And with regard to your comment about the missing percentage that our current sound systems cannot produce, I offer these ideas. I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes. And the reason (well the main reason) would be the room acoustics. If you want true reproduction, you would have to duplicate the acoustics of the venue the material was recorded in.

    So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.

    In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.
    Friends help friends move,
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I have several points for you. The first part of your post is quite correct. You buy what you want, what you can afford, what sounds best to you, etc. Nobody can argue against that. That is your personal right and your personal taste.

    The problem begins when we start analyzing these components, like cables. There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord. It is just an ad copy. As well, since there is currently no valid scientific testing for conclusive evidence of cables sonics, it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables. That has always been true and will continue to be true forever. The hard part is figuring out where the mistakes, errors and omissions are and neither you nor I can conclude that there are unknown parameters in cable physics. It may or may not be so.

    So we are fine if we stick to our basic positions. Yours is that you have bought components, brought them home and enjoyed them from your perspective. I have not seen any proof that specific cables are better than one and another but that also does not mean it is not so. The problems begin when we try to extend our position. For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?

    And with regard to your comment about the missing percentage that our current sound systems cannot produce, I offer these ideas. I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes. And the reason (well the main reason) would be the room acoustics. If you want true reproduction, you would have to duplicate the acoustics of the venue the material was recorded in.

    So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.

    In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.
    I'm with you all the way. However, I would prefer to paste skeptic's last post on the end of yours and combine the two.

    Skeptic continues where you left off to put cables in the context of what we should really be talking about if our goal is to make significant stides in audio reproduction in the home. The issues that usually get argued about in audio, such as cables, tubes v. solid state, formats, etc. are really meaningless when compared to trying to make real progress in areas that deal with fundamental deficiencies in our current reproduction methods.

    Before skeptic decided I was the Anti-Christ, he shared a lot of detail with me about the system he developed, and it seems to me that he was attempting to deal with issues far more fundamental and important than just about anything that has been tried in the last 20 years. He may be right when he says his system might not be practical for home use, but I suspect it has never received a fair trial.

    Because I know a little about the work he has done in this area, I can understand his frustrations over the usual subjects, such as cables, that take up so much time on the web, but which he knows pale in comparison to the type of issues he has taken on.

    From what I understand, skeptic has a lot of experience with performance venues, and has combined his technical knowledge with that experience in an effort to reproduce in a home setting many of the sonic clues that exist at a live performance but which any current commercial system, no matter how good, cannot hope to reproduce in the home.

  13. #38
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    No matter what you own, how much you've invested in it, or how great you think it is, there is always someone out there who makes your prized possessions look and feel like Salvation Army Store rejects.
    Absolutely. My friend HP's system is worth more in cables than the entirety of my comparatively modest system. You will not find me fauning over it with refrains of Gollum's "my precious". It is a sad statement that there are many folks who treat their systems as status symbols or otherwise materialistic totem poles.

    Mine is there solely for the love of music for which I cannot imagine a life without.

    rw

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I have several points for you... There is a lot of ad copy that explains why one cable sounds better than another or better than plain zip cord. You simply cannot use these as justification for why you think your new cable sounds better than zip cord.
    I was totally unaware of the ad copy for the JPS Labs cables I purchased before I purchased them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    ...it is a logical fallacy to simply state that since there have been other instances in science, and even audio, where something was incorrectly assessed then the same must be happening for audio cables.
    I merely suggest that errors have been made in the past and will likely occur again. We are not as yet omniscient.
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    For example you say I heard differences therefore you engineers are not testing for the right parameters yet and I say there is no evidence of cables sonics therefore they do not exist. Is this making any sense?
    When large numbers of perceptive listeners hear something that defy measurements, then the measurement are incomplete. I am still waiting for a SINGLE report of ANY DBT with null results that uses something more than receivers and bookshelf speakers as the testing medium. Mtry provided a link to a test by TagMclaren that did use high quality gear (he obviously didn't read the details) but all it did was assert that their $300/meter ICs sounded the same as some midrange Nordost cables in the same price range.


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    I don't think that the sounds that are produced in the studio, in the concert hall, in the arena, in the outdoors venue can ever be properly duplicated in our homes...So in an untentionally pessemistic way, I believe that we will never achieve that 100% reproduction of sound.
    No disagreement there. HP's system, however, makes all the walls disappear and transforms one into a very large acoustic space far beyond the boundaries of Music Room 3. Close your eyes (see I like blind experiences) and a forty foot wide and thirty foot deep stage appears before you (with better recordings, naturally)


    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    In the end, I believe what we should be arguing (discussing rather) about it the proper way to determine if cable sonics do exist and how prominent they are given all the factors like the other components, the source material, etc.
    I see two distinctly different contexts in which such an analysis would be ascertained. The first is what I believe has been the prevalent one where every single report I have heard using DBT has been conducted: are there audible differences between zip and exotic cables using average audio equipment? The second would be far more stringent: can experienced listeners hear differences in the finest audio systems available today when using the finest cables?

    The answer to the first question is easy. No. It is in the best economic interest of large commercial audio equipment companies to determine what makes the most sense in terms of delivering the most bang for one's buck with equipment that is commonly found. Would anyone disagree with that assertion?

    The second one, in my mind, has yet to be determined with scientific testing. We are talking here of $250k+ systems that are (understandably) totally absent in any of the large scale mass market testing venues.

    rw

  15. #40
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    There is always something to drool over that you just gotta have. Then, one day you wake up (if you're me) and you realize that it's just another machine. How many countless thousands of machines have I seen, worked on, worried over, wanted, hated, repaired, installed, uninstalled, until eventually they become little more than a blur. That brand new car you just couldn't wait to get behind the wheel of becomes a familiar friend, then an old shoe to be taken for granted, and finally a clunker to be ditched for the next new gee whiz car. My current car was a rocket ship when I got it. Fastest thing I ever drove. Now with about 105,000 miles on it, it just gets me around. Maybe that last $500 speeding ticket cooled me down. Same with audio equipment, camera gear, tv sets, and everything else. All except my house. Next month it will be 4 years since I owned it. It still doesn't feel like home. Maybe it never will. Every day I get up, look at it and wonder what the hell I've done.

    PS, if you own a house, you need a truck. Nothing like a truck. Maybe my next car will be a truck.

  16. #41
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Because I know a little about the work he (Skeptic) has done in this area, I can understand his frustrations over the usual subjects, such as cables, that take up so much time on the web, but which he knows pale in comparison to the type of issues he has taken on.
    Which is why I marvel at the amount of time these guys spend discussing what they believe to be a non issue. Call me crazy but I expend a sum total of zero time whatsoever discussing any topic that I find insignificant. You'd think he'd pen far more posts in the area of multichannel recording and reproduction than a topic that for him is virtually nonexistent.

    rw

  17. #42
    Forum Regular Rockwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Which is why I marvel at the amount of time these guys spend discussing what they believe to be a non issue. Call me crazy but I expend a sum total of zero time whatsoever discussing any topic that I find insignificant. You'd think he'd pen far more posts in the area of multichannel recording and reproduction than a topic that for him is virtually nonexistent.

    rw
    Cable sonics are a non-issue, but the fraudulent use of them as a selling point isn't.
    "You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers."

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockwell
    Cable sonics are a non-issue, but the fraudulent use of them as a selling point isn't.
    Ok Lone Ranger, then why are you wasting time here and not testifying or litigating in court with the defendants?

    rw

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiemax
    Can you say MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?

    If so, STOP doing that, and you may not have to defend any more purchasing mistakes to protect your ego. A 30-day guarantee should give you enough time to decide on the wisdom of your purchase.

    Yes, restocking fees, shipping costs and how many just give in and forget it, not worth returning.
    mtrycrafts

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    "Do you buy "new" without a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE ?"

    There are guarantees and guarantees. Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use. Then there is "your money cheerfully refunded if for any reason you are dissatisfied with your purchase within the first thirty days." Now that's a guarantee you can feel safe with assuming it isn't from a guy who stands on the corner with a pile of audio cables hanging in one side of his coat and a pile of fake Rollex watches in the other.

    Where do you go to read up on cables? Do you read about them in magazines who count their manufacturers among their advertisers? Do you take out a text in electrical engineering and learn how to solve second order differential equations? Do you read the manufacturers' advertising literature?

    Since everyone is an expert, which expert should you choose? Well perhaps you should choose John Curl who claims that the greatest difference he could find was between minus 120 and minus 135 db of the seventh harmonic of 5 khz for noise and distortion. Or perhaps you should read Jon Risch who says you can't hear any difference unless you own a "high resolution" sound system (guess that lets me out) and even then you should "roll your own." Of course, even to understand the advertising propaganda, you need special knowledge. One guy talks about strand jumping of electrons, another about the "Fermi Velocity" of electrons, and another about having no crystal boundaries in the metal.) You can read about the number and size of strands, the configuration of strands, whether the conductors should be oxygen free copper or sliver, how many twists there should or shouldn't be, what kind of insulation is ok and what kind isn't because of "dielcteric memory." Each guy who sells this stuff has his own angle on it. So if you read every single one of them you will be so busy you will never get to buy anything because by the time you get done, new people will come along with a whole new set of ideas and reasons why theirs is the best and all of the others are no good. See? Reading does pay off after all.
    You said "Most guarantees only cover the repair or replacement of equipment which is defective or fails in reasonable use." That certainly hasn't been my experience, although there was one exception. A Radio Shack once told me that lenghts of their speaker cable cut from spools was not returnable. But I have never bought an audiophile cable that didn't have a 30-day or a 60-day money back guarantee which allowed return of the cable for any reason.

    I agree that being an armchair audiophile is relatively inexpensive. But it's no substitute for the real thing. Of course you can double the fun by reading about cables and listening to them at the same time.
    Last edited by okiemax; 02-08-2004 at 11:58 AM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtrycraft
    Yes, restocking fees, shipping costs and how many just give in and forget it, not worth returning.
    Interesting speculation. My dealer charges no restocking fees and since they are a ten minute drive away, there are no shipping costs.

    rw

  22. #47
    Forum Regular Tony_Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    My dealer charges no restocking fees and since they are a ten minute drive away, there are no shipping costs.
    How about gas money cost
    "Say Hello To My Little Friend."

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Montana
    How about gas money cost
    You're right. Ten miles roundtrip at the nominal IRS 36.5 cents per mile would add up to....well $3.65.

    rw

  24. #49
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    Hi guys


    (so...Phil...your still here, eh?)


    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    In other words, after more than 100 year of sound reproduction technology, the goal of recreating the experience of a live concert is well beyond what can be achieved today.

    Skeptic...nice post above.

    While I do agree with much of what you said...to some degree. I do differ in the way I view some of what you describe.

    I think past...and current technology does a fine job at reproducing the recording.


    again...nice post!



    take care>>>>>>>
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    enjoy the music!

  25. #50
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    Is that a Tice clock?
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