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Power Cords.
Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults? All of my gear goes through a power conditioner so would it make and sense to get better external power cords?
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults?
frenchmon
Yep, I bought an Acoustic Research AC cord for an old CDP. It was supposed to help with regulating power. I can honestly say the results were that I had a nice purple cord on the end of my CDP. It was grounded which was good I suppose, but no sonic improvements, that's for sure.
Here it is except mine was purple... http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Resea...p_ob_e_title_0
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I use high end power cords in my 2-channel system, and have had improvements. With my HT systems I use plain-Jane cords. I don't see any reason to waste time using aftermarket power cords with mid-fi equipment which may not have the resolving ability to reveal any differences. BTW, check out the following post on power cords by Ralph Karsten, the designer/owner of Atma-Sphere high end electronics.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...enflup&36&4#36
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I use an upgraded audioquest power cord and I cant tell the difference. I've tried it on various pieces of equipment and it all sounds the same.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Has anybody ever used external replacement power cords for their gear? If so what where the reults? All of my gear goes through a power conditioner so would it make and sense to get better external power cords?
I would never source a power amp through a conditioner, especially the 10 amp per monoblock VTL tube amps. With few very expensive exceptions (Nordost, Audience, Shunyata, etc.), they limit current and thus dynamic range. I run all my power amps and the speaker power supplies through JPS Labs, Harmonic Technology and some DIY after market cords. Result? Better bass punch and low level resolution through better RFI rejection. I run the sources through conditioners.
The usual canard is that after miles and miles of wire, how can the last three feet make any difference? The problem with that myopic view is that the cords represent the first three feet in an environment most likely polluted with any number of digital switching power supplies. There was an old TV repairman here by the name of Woodman who staunchly asserted that there was no possible way that any power cord could ever make a difference. Naturally, he had zero actual experience with any aftermarket cord and relied entirely upon his speculation and imagination. The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend. I can think of some others here today who will likely share that same view. :)
rw
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I myself would say with power amps it could make a difference seeing that they are higher current drawing components that relly on the input power to amplify. With preamps and cdp's and lower current drawing components I would say the difference would be small at best, most likely it would not make a differnce.
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Actually, Harley, it's just the opposite in my experience. Lower level components benefit the most.
Several years ago the guys at Music For Pleasure threw me a Transparent power cord to try. I went in to borrow a 6 outlet power conditioner. I tried the conditioner by itself and did not like it. As E-stat referred to the conditioner, I suspect, limited the current to my Krell and the result was a weaker presentation. So with that set aside I remembered the power cord. I honestly didn't think a power cord could make a difference. After trying it first on my CD player I was amazed at the improvement. I began to rotate the power cord to each of my components. Each demonstrated an improvement. The largest, most noticeable was in the CD player and phono preamp. So I when I took the outlet device back I bought a power cord for every component in my system that allowed a replacement. Remind me to show you behind the sceens you will see the Quintessence with several after market Transparent power cords coming from it. I do have one MIT Z-cord I bought for my Linn amp. It worked beautifully on it. I have not compared the Transparent against the MIT, too much trouble. I highly recommend trying one of the Transparent and MFP will allow you to audition one before you buy.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend.
rw
You really have to look at PC in an opposite view.
Power cords are probably the biggest source of low frequency noise interference (EMI) in an audio system due to its high current. And shielding it to reduce its EMI emission to its surrounding (or to protect it from outside EMI) at low frequency is useless since you will need a really thick shielding (2 inches copper at 60 Hz) to be any useful at lower frequency protection.
The best way to combat this situation is to use cable geometry to fight low noise interference. Cable such as Canare 4S11 that have four wire “Star Quad” configuration. Such a configuration not only have advantage of reducing EM field around the cable (to reduce emiision), it reduces susceptibility to electro-magnetically (EM) induced noise from outside sources too.
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I should add the improvement won't be like when you swiched CD players. I hate to say more subtle but I think to most it will be. What you will notice is a quieter background, easier to hear fine detail and I noticed less of what I can only call glare on digital playback. When I refer to "noise", you'll say, "well I don't hear noise now." It's not apparent until you hear it gone. The noise floor dropped significantly on my phono stage. The one I use is not cheap, I was surprised at what a difference it made.
At the time I added the power cables my system amplification and CDP was all Krell. I noticed what I mentioned above but I didn't note any improvement to frequency response like when changing to high quality speaker cables or RCA's. To me the improvement was well worth the expense but I can see how maybe to others it might not be.
I'll have to pick one up and try it on the ERC to see what happens.
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Well I stand corrected. I would think the highest current drawing component would benifit the most with upgraded power cables. But I trust your judgement as you have been a realiable source before for info, and the fact that you have worked with a lot of different brands of high end stuff helps.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
Yep, I bought an Acoustic Research AC cord for an old CDP. It was supposed to help with regulating power. I can honestly say the results were that I had a nice purple cord on the end of my CDP. It was grounded which was good I suppose, but no sonic improvements, that's for sure.
Here it is except mine was purple... http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Resea...p_ob_e_title_0
Thanks pappaC. Is there suppose to be sonic improvement or a better feed to the gear? You think it nothing but snake oil?
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glen B
I use high end power cords in my 2-channel system, and have had improvements. With my HT systems I use plain-Jane cords. I don't see any reason to waste time using aftermarket power cords with mid-fi equipment which may not have the resolving ability to reveal any differences. BTW, check out the following post on power cords by Ralph Karsten, the designer/owner of Atma-Sphere high end electronics.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...enflup&36&4#36
HI Glen B....dont know where but I know you from another forum. Thanks for the article...I guess its not all snake oil. But from reading the post, I'm better off without them.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackraven
I use an upgraded audioquest power cord and I cant tell the difference. I've tried it on various pieces of equipment and it all sounds the same.
It seems it depends on what grade of gear your fall in...does that make sense?
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Thanks pappaC. Is there suppose to be sonic improvement or a better feed to the gear? You think it nothing but snake oil?
frenchmon
No, not at all. I think E-Stat hit it on the head. Read his post. I also agree with him that messing with an amps intake could prove troublesome. The CDP I used it for wasn't of the highest quality, perhaps this was the problem.
I think coupled with the right unit, this could serve as a nice upgrade. My thoughts are that it would lower the noise floor that crumby, unpolarized cords are know for adding to. This in turn should bring some of the music to the forefront. Really for the cost, try it out. Best to see for yourself. The AR cord I linked you probably isn't the greatest either, check and see for others.
I am in the process of adding an extra breaker line for my equipment. I will have one for analog and one for digital. This will serve as an alternative to power conditioning, at a much cheaper cost for me. I will be sure to let you know how it goes Frenchy, I plan to photograph and make a thread. Is this an option for you?
What exactly are you looking to do? Replace an existing cord on a source?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I would never source a power amp through a conditioner, especially the 10 amp per monoblock VTL tube amps. With few very expensive exceptions (Nordost, Audience, Shunyata, etc.), they limit current and thus dynamic range. I run all my power amps and the speaker power supplies through JPS Labs, Harmonic Technology and some DIY after market cords. Result? Better bass punch and low level resolution through better RFI rejection. I run the sources through conditioners.
The usual canard is that after miles and miles of wire, how can the last three feet make any difference? The problem with that myopic view is that the cords represent the first three feet in an environment most likely polluted with any number of digital switching power supplies. There was an old TV repairman here by the name of Woodman who staunchly asserted that there was no possible way that any power cord could ever make a difference. Naturally, he had zero actual experience with any aftermarket cord and relied entirely upon his speculation and imagination. The concept of cords actually having active RFI filter networks and shielding was beyond his ability to comprehend. I can think of some others here today who will likely share that same view. :)
rw
So are you recommending that I should not run my amp through the power console? Its only a Rotel RB 1080 @ 200 per channel. Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?
I have a Belkin power console PF31 and its very convenient. I hit one botton and everything turns on or off with the amp on a delay and I know I have some sorta protection.
frenchmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?
frenchmon
I don't want to speak for E-Stat, however I just had this conversation with him not too long ago. In essence yes, he's telling you to plug into the wall. However, there can be alot of issues with digital and analog devices when they are plugged in series together. Essentially the digital stuff throws alot of interference back into the wall, this creates havoc for your analog gear.
This is why I have chosen to have an additional line put in. I have one extra slot in my breaker box. My buddy who is an electrician will run a line for me and hook up 2 or 3 plugs in series. I will use the existing plugs for digital and the new ones for analog.
My suggestion is, if possible of course, try to run either your analog or digital to a different line and see what happens. Another good test of this would be to completely disconnect either one entirely from the chain and see how the other sounds. E-Stat has told me the results are subtle.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I should add the improvement won't be like when you swiched CD players. I hate to say more subtle but I think to most it will be. What you will notice is a quieter background, easier to hear fine detail and I noticed less of what I can only call glare on digital playback. When I refer to "noise", you'll say, "well I don't hear noise now." It's not apparent until you hear it gone. The noise floor dropped significantly on my phono stage. The one I use is not cheap, I was surprised at what a difference it made.
At the time I added the power cables my system amplification and CDP was all Krell. I noticed what I mentioned above but I didn't note any improvement to frequency response like when changing to high quality speaker cables or RCA's. To me the improvement was well worth the expense but I can see how maybe to others it might not be.
I'll have to pick one up and try it on the ERC to see what happens.
Yeah....I was under the understanding that midfi was not worth it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
Power cords are probably the biggest source of low frequency noise interference (EMI) in an audio system due to its high current. And shielding it to reduce its EMI emission to its surrounding (or to protect it from outside EMI) at low frequency is useless since you will need a really thick shielding (2 inches copper at 60 Hz) to be any useful at lower frequency protection.
Who said anything about shielding against 60 hz? Useless? Only to those who have never used them and have trouble imagining the improvements. Especially when you are incapable of speculating about what's important. Great straw man argument!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey
The best way to combat this situation is to use cable geometry to fight low noise interference.
Why do you incorrectly assume this is not being done with aftermarket cords? I can tell you that both the JPS Labs Power AC+ and the Harmonic Tech use multiple sets of conductors.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
So are you recommending that I should not run my amp through the power console? Its only a Rotel RB 1080 @ 200 per channel. Would I benefit by going directly into the wall?
My experience says yes when it comes to dynamics and bass punch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
I have a Belkin power console PF31 and its very convenient. I hit one botton and everything turns on or off with the amp on a delay and I know I have some sorta protection.
As for me, I've never in decades had trouble running amps directly to the wall.
rw
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I liken Acoustic Research cables to Monoprice. You can't compare either to what a decent quality cable will do.
Poppa is correct that dedicated line for audio is supposed to make a great deal of difference.
It's not the improvement in juice received by the amp with an aftermarket cord as much as it is cleaning the power coming in.
Definitely try plugging the power amp directly into the wall. Many of the smaller power conditioners can actually limit the current flow. Unless the unit specifically says no current limiting or the rated amperage is higher than what your amp is rated to draw.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
I liken Acoustic Research cables to Monoprice. .
Ouch! Please Mr. Peabody, let me have my disillusioned fantasy. I do think that AR would rank a little better than Monoprice, but that's not here or there really.
Oh BTW, in my fantasy, the producers of fine, high quality cables are all in a row, on their knees with hands tied behind their backs. As I slowly walk along behind them, I am using my Pro Series II cables to whip their exposed backs. As I forcefully ask them "Who's your daddy?!?", they reply "AR is....AR is my (sobbing) daddddyyyy...."
Twisted? Oh no, not at all?!? MMMMMMmmwhahahahhahaha........
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poppachubby
I do think that AR would rank a little better than Monoprice, but that's not here or there really.
I can recommend a couple of DIY recipes (also available pre-assembled) using shielded Belden cable and high quality connectors that don't break the bank. The least expensive option uses 19364 SJT cord and is available from DIY Cable. I use a pair of these on the speaker power supplies. A step up uses 83803 which is both larger gauge and is double shielded. I made one of these which I use either with my preamp or CDP. The recipe can be found here.
Both are also available either in components or finished form at Zebra cables.
You'll note these don't have to be terribly expensive and I've found them to be a step above low end commercial stuff which is more of a cosmetic enhancement than anything else. The 83803 cable, however, is pretty stiff!
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I can recommend a couple of DIY recipes rw
I am deep into research of DIY cables E-Stat. JoeSP9 already tipped me off. I am partial to Belden 89529 using Furutech supplies. I will also be making some silver core with the arrival of my Golden Tube.
Thanks for the tip though "dubbya", I will check out your links. I am really excited about this project. Joe emailed me a Risch recipe that I'm pretty pumped about.
Here's my main source right now, although I'm sure you've been: http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/power.htm
Also I am getting supplies from PartConnexion, a Canadian store. What can you recommend for plugs? Are Cardas really the best? I think I'll try the Furutech for now, the pair I'm looking at is mid-range, approx. $40 CDN.
Perhaps my fantasy will extend to me wacking these cable guys with my very own DIY cable. Ooooooo sexy!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchmon
HI Glen B....dont know where but I know you from another forum.
AVS Forum ?
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My power amp draws 1800watts and any cable I use must be 12g or heavier or rated to handle 1800watts and greater than 15 amps.
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