Power cords

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  • 04-12-2007, 06:47 AM
    Resident Loser
    Ah...er...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat

    (1)Sufficient for what?

    (2)I'm referring to switching power supply hash. Easily seen on scopes.

    (3)That is your viewpoint. I don't use arguments as the basis for mine. I find listening far more valuable. :)

    rw

    ...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...

    ...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?

    ...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening? Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem? If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...Sounds like drug company logic..."Gee boss, we came across this compound that happens to make folks pee less...maybe we can take this plain old everyday annoyance, call it a disease, give it a name and make oodles of cash...we can advertise it, and tell folks to ask their doctors about it and then give the doctors pre-printed 'scrip pads..." or maybe you could drink a little less than the governmet recommended gallon and certainly avoid drinking copious amounts before bed...really ain't no problem but they sure can convince everyone there is...but, as is my penchant, I digress

    Geez I coulda' sworn there was mention made of some specific sources of all this sonic hash and why they need to be quelled...the argument being (a) these things exist, (b) they come via the mains from washers and dryers and...(c) they come from adjacent components, and (d) they come from all these post-yuppie-riffic electronic annoyances that festoon the average homestead...

    And we all know what my counter-arguments are...

    jimHJJ(...Sooooo...)
  • 04-12-2007, 08:12 AM
    jneutron
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    You do know that I'm just playing with you right?

    No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh

    Sigh,

    Cheers, john aka dunderhead..

    ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...
  • 04-12-2007, 08:13 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...(1)Obviating the need for extree-speshul power cords...

    How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...(2)What is that power supply doing to the signal passing through the component which contains said switching power supply?

    I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...(3)So you use no supportive arguments other than strictly the results of trial-and-error experimentation as a result of long-term listening?

    The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Seems a bit bass-ackwards to me...We've got a fix before we actually identify a problem?

    Why on earth do you make that assumption?

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    If the IEC connectors weren't used as a manufacturing expedient, there would be no "cottage-industry" spawned...no one would have looked to AC cords as a "problem" if a simple swap wasn't so...so...expedient...

    Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...but, as is my penchant, I digress

    Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 08:20 AM
    Resident Loser
    Eclipse?...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jneutron
    ...gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...

    ...there was an eclipse? Where? D@mn, I like them things, where was I?

    jimHJJ(...probably not enough light to see it...)
  • 04-12-2007, 08:28 AM
    GMichael
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jneutron
    No..it did not occur to me..ya got me big time..hook, line, sinker, boat, ocean, planet..arrghgh

    Sigh,

    Cheers, john aka dunderhead..

    ps..gona crawl back into that hole till the next eclipse...

    So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.
  • 04-12-2007, 08:34 AM
    jneutron
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GMichael
    So sorry. I'm a baaaaaaaaaad poster.

    bully.. meanie..


    Sounds like Mae..."when I'm good I'm good, when I'm bad...........I'm really good.":ihih:

    Keep up the good work..

    John
  • 04-12-2007, 08:45 AM
    Resident Loser
    The word...
    ...convoluted springs to the fore yet again......

    [QUOTE=E-Stat]How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems?

    Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?

    I really don't care what is happening to the "signal" going through my washing machine or microwave oven.

    I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...

    The "argument" remains the audibility of untrapped RFI that gets amplified downstream.

    Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...

    Why on earth do you make that assumption?

    No assumption...it's a "fix" looking for a problem

    Nonsense. Power conditioning products have been available for decades.

    A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...

    Yep, I'll have to agree with you here. :)

    Nice to be able to agree on something

    jimHJJ(...and with that brick wall...)
  • 04-12-2007, 09:23 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Here it comes, straight outta' left field...MEDICAL COMPANIES...This is Audio Review and we were talkin' audio components and the power cords that connect them weren't we?...from whence come the vital signs monitors?

    Gee thatís funny. That is exactly what I was thinkiní when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I thought the power conditioner trapped all that stuff...besides you know perfectly well to what I'm referring...

    Honestly, I donít. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Again...untrapped RFI...how do sheilded power cords eliminate wire-borne hash a power conditioner missed...

    Same answer as above. See post # 33 for more details. In my experience, traditional conditioners limit the dynamic range of large power amplifiers. My VTLs draw 10 amps each at maximum output. I have four conditioners that I use primarily on the video systems.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    A...um...the subject was IEC connectors and the "cottage industry" of power cords...or so I thought...besides aren't power conditioners further back upstream...at least according to my Silva compass...your Garvin GPS must be runnin' low on batts...

    The topic remains power conditioning. There are different ways to achieve that goal. Shielded power cords with RC networks qualify as such. As for me, I put the solution nearest to the affected device. How did you know I have a Garvin GPS? Yes, the Quest 2 is a nifty portable unit. Has all of the US, Canada, and even Puerto Rico mapped. In í05, my wife attended a medical conference in PR and I tagged along. Got in some good scuba diving (which does wonders for clearing the ears) and the trusty Quest led me through a circuitous mountain path to the Arecibo Observatory for a tour.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    Nice to be able to agree on something

    I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 10:08 AM
    Resident Loser
    Why do I...
    [QUOTE=E-Stat]Gee thatís funny. That is exactly what I was thinkiní when you brought up the topic in post # 71!

    ...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission...

    Honestly, I donít. RL, the cord is the power conditioner.

    OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...

    How did you know I have a Garvin GPS?

    I know a great...many...things...Bach's Toccata and Fugue would seem appropriate at this point

    I suspect we agree on many things, just not this one. Like the joy we experience while listening to music. :)

    jimHJJ(...something else we agree on...)
  • 04-12-2007, 11:34 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...suspect you know precisely the point I was trying to make re: cell phones and other electronics vis a' vis RFI transmission.

    I gather that you assume that if other digital devices don't disturb medical instrumentation (re: post #71), then why would they be of concern to audio enthusiasts? I'll repeat my answer. How would medical companies have any idea (or more importantly, care) what is audible for audio systems? Especially when those offending digital devices are plugged into the AC (unlike your portable device example).

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    OK...I'll bite...link please, preferably one with a schematic or at least some technical details re: these filtering ntwks...always willing to learn...

    I don't know of any links that provide that kind of proprietary information. They're not necessarily exotic in their design.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...something else we agree on.

    Good!

    rw
  • 04-12-2007, 12:27 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    my head hurts...
    I simply can't keep reading this stuff anymore...it's making my head hurt in anguish over the very nature of the entire thing. No side is willing to give in on this issue, it's a waste of time and energy. I'd much rather enjoy my system w/ power cords and whether they are helping or not, I could care less cuz it sounds too damn good to matter at this point.
  • 04-12-2007, 03:09 PM
    dmoes
    My humble Thoughts on Power Cords
    I doubt that spending Hundreds of dollars on a single chord is worth it but there are a few things that I do to clean up the power a bit before it gets the component.
    For the amp a heavy guage powercord is a good Idea nothing more that 14 guage though since thats what is in your walls so anyting thicker unless your outlet is at the other end of the house is a waste of copper. components like DVDs and cable/satalite boxes that draw less than a max of 50 to 100 watts realy don.t need the thick stuff.
    You should use good connectors and outlets . Hospital grade is good but any high quallity grade will do fine. Try when possible to keep the power chords away from the rest of the wiring. Use a good power strip that not only has surge protection but EMI and trainsient filers you can get something like theTripplite Isobar ultra for under $80 that has EMI/transient filtering with multiple Capacitors and chokes on the incomming power plus additional emi filtering between outlet banks that can reduce transfer of noise generated in one components power supply from effecting another device.

    last I wrap the chords a few times through a ferrite core keeping close to the component. I am not sure where to get these Ferite cores I managed to salvage a bunch when they discarded a bunch at work. they are a ferite ring assembles in two halves that can be opened to wrap the wire then clamped closed again. I can't say for sure how much of a difference in the general sound is but it eliminated the pops clicks and visble interference on the TV that I had prior to the rewiring.

    as for residual Floobydust? This comes from a loose nut on the remote control.
  • 04-13-2007, 04:47 PM
    PeruvianSkies
    looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.
  • 04-14-2007, 09:57 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    looks like we have a cease fire on this thread.

    It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

    Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

    rw
  • 04-14-2007, 11:30 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    It is unfortunate that many of these debates in the past deteriorated into personal attacks, challenges and the like.

    Because my opinion is based upon years of direct experience with numerous cords and conditioners on different systems (not limited to my own), there is nothing for me to "give into". My experience is, well my experience. I don't find speculation to be especially valuable in this matter.

    rw

    Well, I am total agreement with you about cords and conditioners and likewise have seen the results, which I don't need to be proved different from. I can't just suddently NOT believe what I have witnessed to be true. So maybe a cease fire is the best as neither side has more to offer and no ones opinion will be changed through text, only ears.
  • 04-14-2007, 02:05 PM
    MikeyBC
    WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

    :)
  • 04-16-2007, 05:07 AM
    Resident Loser
    That's cuz...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MikeyBC
    WOW a peaceful ending...yay !

    :)

    ...and...WARNING! WARNING!...here comes the incendiary part...I have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...

    But anyway...de facto cessation aborted...my attempt at an analogy re: cell phones. medical devices, etc. was that there are devices that broadcast RFI...there are other devices that don't (or at least shouldn't AND if they do are subject to limitations of the proximity effect)...and not that anyone in the medical devices industry gives de-friggin'-fibrillator about audio and vice-versa...

    As I see it:

    (1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

    (2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...

    What else is there? And I'm [really tryin' to understand the POV...As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.

    I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...and somehow a further removing of the sonic lint from the black fabric, with something above and beyond a shielded power cord, simply makes no sense IMO...Or are we simply talkin' belt AND suspenders?

    jimHJJ(...happy Monday!...)
  • 04-16-2007, 06:37 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    You know that part...
    of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....
  • 04-16-2007, 07:16 AM
    Resident Loser
    Be quiet...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    of the horror movie where you think the bad guys dead...and then he just keeps getting back up again and again and again....

    ...the adults are trying to talk...

    jimHJJ(...capiche?...)
  • 04-16-2007, 07:31 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...the adults are trying to talk...

    jimHJJ(...capiche?...)

    Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.
  • 04-16-2007, 07:50 AM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    (1)You clean up the mains feed to your audio gear with a power conditioner...

    (2)You thwart non-AC-line-sourced RFI, as in radio waves, CBs, processor hash (which for some reasons defies the physical limits of said proximity effect, etc.) with a shielded cord...

    First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    As stated previously, any digital/processor artifacts within a component should be segregated from the audio signal by design and as a by-product should also be incapable of contaminating adjacent components, wiring, etc.

    Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    I don't see and cannot quite comprehend what could possibly remain from an EMI/RFI POV...

    Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

    rw
  • 04-16-2007, 08:53 AM
    Resident Loser
    I have...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    Did you think I was talking to you? I never directed that statement towards anyone, but since you had a comeback you must have felt that it was...I wonder why. hmmmm.

    ...no idea, nor do I care, as to whom you were talking to...the simple fact is you were and since by your own admission this thread has caused your head to hurt, you should probably sit this out...

    jimHJJ(...now please, I have an intelligent adult to whom I need reply...)
  • 04-16-2007, 09:16 AM
    Resident Loser
    Tell ya...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by E-Stat
    First of all conventional power conditioners are not ideal for high powered receivers and power amps because they limit current. Aftermarket cords work better for them. As for your second point, you're still confusing the villains. Go back to post #72 regarding the noise that switching power supplies throw back into the AC. The nearby problem is your CD/DVD player that generates a strong RF field which may be amplified downstream.


    Unfortunately, there is a difference between should and do.


    Once you adequately filter the noise generated by said, then nothing does remain. Other than an unveiled signal. :)

    rw

    ...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

    jimHJJ(...I'm game...)
  • 04-16-2007, 10:00 AM
    PeruvianSkies
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Resident Loser
    ...what I'm gonna' do...when time allows, I'll bring a test device home with me to help gauge the radiated hash fields...I have no idea what this will prove, but what the hey...

    jimHJJ(...I'm game...)

    How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.

    Quote:

    have a life, need time to listen to music, and don't do weekends 'round these parts...
    so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...
  • 04-16-2007, 11:00 AM
    Resident Loser
    Actually...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PeruvianSkies
    How about the radiated hash fields coming from your mouth? That would be off the charts as you say so much, yet say so little. The only reason my head hurts is from your psychobabble. You just can't let things be. This thread was at a standstill, but then out-of-retirement you have to come back with more useless ramblings. Blah blah blah. What are you trying to prove exactly? I think that E-stat and I have already made up our minds as it would seem you have as well, so this is never going to get resolved. You believe what you want and we'll believe what we want.



    so that explains why it's so nice and quiet around here on the weekends...

    ...I don't give a fiddler's fornication what goes on in your "mind"...although I'm disposed to give E-Stat the benefit of doubt and actually do some testing...And again, and I realize how difficult this is for you to cope with, it's more for the noobs than anything else...so like it or not TFB...

    Nice and quiet? You mean another boring meeting of the mutual admiration society, where never is heard a discouraging word? A nice warm and fuzzy place where your brain won't hurt?

    jimHJJ(...bite me...and better buy Bayer...)