• 04-27-2009, 03:55 PM
    angelgz
    I found a very interesting article on expensive cables....
    http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-resonance

    I am still a skeptical to spend $400 on cables. I got some good advice from people here but I have to say this article above makes a lot of sense too.

    Thanks guys. I'll keep my eyes out.
  • 04-27-2009, 06:31 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by angelgz
    I am still a skeptical to spend $400 on cables. I got some good advice from people here but I have to say this article above makes a lot of sense too.

    I'll take both sides. The article is essentially useless as all it does is address the concept of resonance. And? There's more to cable performance than that. On the other hand, I would start with modest Blue Jeans stuff and focus on improving the rest of your system first.

    rw
  • 04-27-2009, 09:09 PM
    OzzieAudiophile
    The 10% theory
    I have been advised by many "experts", and even those on this forum that you should
    spend about 10% of your total budget (of your hifi), on cables.

    I.e. if your total cost for your system is $10,000 , then $1,000 should go to cabling.

    If this is not true, then why would you spend $20 on cables to pipe through your
    audio/video signal from $9,000 worth of equipment ?

    Even the most skeptical person must agree that a really exceptional $20 cable would not
    out perform a majority of $1,000 cables ? for example.

    If one really believes that there is no loss of signal, or what eventually comes out of
    your speakers by using the cheapest cable possible, then that is your choice, but
    it would not be a bad idea to audition the more expensive brands to at least compare.
    Tests, and your own ears should be able to tell you surely.

    I'm not saying all expensive cables are cost-effective, there are some which are not
    worth the money, but at the same time I wouldn't neglect the higher quality/priced
    ones without at least auditioning them first and compare those to the monster cables
    I have currently in my system.
  • 04-27-2009, 11:37 PM
    RoadRunner6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile
    If this is not true, then why would you spend $20 on cables to pipe through your audio/video signal from $9,000 worth of equipment ? Even the most skeptical person must agree that a really exceptional $20 cable would not
    out perform a majority of $1,000 cables ? for example.

    You would spend $20 because then you would be able to pipe it through $9980 worth of equipment at the same total cost without any change in sound whatsoever. I am about as skeptical as one can get and for good reason. I am also very objective and only buy more expensive connectors when I can hear or see the difference in a blind test. That is one reason I buy quality cable leads to my TV, I can see the difference. Speaker wire is speaker wire if using heavy enough gauge (zip cord is fine unless you need thin flat wire). Well constructed audio cables all sound the same. Don't listen to anyone but yourself in a blind test. It is very simple to do with help from a friend or your wife.

    That is the reason I continue to buy Monoprice cable unless I need very pliable cable. Expensive power cables and power conditioners are in the same category, snake oil. It has nothing to do with who has the most descriminating ears and the most expensive equipment. It has to do with who is most gullible. Audio/Home Theater accessories are a multi-billion dollar industry (you can fool most of the people most of the time).

    RR6
  • 04-28-2009, 04:24 AM
    markw
    Well now...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile
    I have been advised by many "experts", and even those on this forum that you should
    spend about 10% of your total budget (of your hifi), on cables.

    I.e. if your total cost for your system is $10,000 , then $1,000 should go to cabling.

    If this is not true, then why would you spend $20 on cables to pipe through your
    audio/video signal from $9,000 worth of equipment ?

    Funny, I drive a lowly Hyundai and fill up at the same gas stations as Mercedes, BMW, Corvettes, and the occasional Italian super cars. Owing to the price differences involved, and excluding that they might use high octane, shouldn't they need a more expensive gasoline?

    To put it another way: If I pay $2.00/gallon to fill my $14,000 Elantra, shouldn't a BMW that cost $70,000 need gas that costs $10.00/gallon?
  • 04-28-2009, 06:33 AM
    Hyfi
    It just keeps coming back to diminishing returns. My $1200 Synergistic speaker cables do sound better than my $300 Tara Labs but I would not say 4X better. Same goes with ICs, $350 Synergistic cables do sound better than $90 Tara "S" cables but not 4X better.

    No difference with gear either, My $6500 VAC pre sounds way better than my $550 Sound Valves pre, but not 10X better.

    Your best bet is to go with the very good suggestions here and try ICs between $50 and $100. When you get the opportunity to try better cables (ie: more expensive) for a reasonable price, or trial, give it a shot. There are differences. Whether they sound better or worse in your system is gonna be up to you.

    I believe the Cable Company allows trials and also sells plenty of used cables. Unless very porrly treated, there is not much to go wrong, they don't wear out.
  • 04-28-2009, 08:15 AM
    OzzieAudiophile
    I already advised to "audition" them, you can be blind or not blind, deaf or not deaf, who
    cares ? it is really your money. If one should buy the cheapest possible, might as well
    get fishing lines for cables.

    Besides it's your equipment the cables must perform on, so audition what you can, and
    as many as you can. If you cannot hear the difference in any brand, then there's no
    need to change.

    The fact one would pay even as little as $20 for a cable RoadRunner6, means that's $18
    worth more than the cable that came with a component. That means a $2 one cannot be
    satisfactory otherwise why change it ? I am willing to bet you didn't double blind your $2
    cable with the $20 one you got. By implying that the $2 is not up to the job, but a $20 one
    is implies you have double-standards.

    If you took time to actually read what I said instead of misquoting me, I said that

    I have been advised by many "experts"

    Meaning I am not saying... I have been told, big difference.

    Then there's no need to upgrade any cabling at all, we'd all be using $2 composite cable.
    Let's take it one step further and say, why bother with balanced cabling, optical, HDMI for
    sound ? no need to spend anything beyond $20.

    That also implies that you would never upgrade your cables RoadRunner6 because
    you see no value in anything that would cost more. It's funny how many out there
    have invested a little more than $20 towards their cables. So they also must all be
    wrong also.

    If $20 for an audio cable will do a job just as good if not better than anything than money
    can buy RoadRunner6, then you're basically implying it's irrelevant on the material
    being used to make the cable. That also implies that sheilding, what the connectors or
    terminators are made out of, will also make absolutely no difference either.

    You can try your "double-blind", "double-deaf" or whatever tests you wish, your point only
    holds out if you add as many elements to cause electrical, and magnetic interference,
    within the listening environment, having your $20 cables, or any other cable, and you
    will "never" notice any difference.

    Perhaps RoadRunner6 you may go even as far as for anyone who's ever purchased
    more expensive cables and found any improvement in the sound, or a reduction of
    interference, must all also be wrong.

    I'm not having a go at you RoadRunner6 personally, I am hoping that I would not need to
    upgrade my cables, because DURRR.... I'd be saving money. You wouldn't learn anything
    beyond reading this forum if you didn't go out that and find out for yourself. Whether it's
    auditioning for cables, amps or speakers. You gotta know what you like, and it helps to
    go out there and audition what you can. At least you know what components or brands
    to stay away from. Say if 100 people tell you not to buy this brand, but if you like it, then
    that's all that matters.

    Do you believe the majority of millionaires that visit these hi-end hifi stores would be
    looking to buy $100 all in one hifi systems ? Those shops would sell cable that's
    even more expensive than that.

    The analogy with the fuel is different in the sense that the vehicles have a "recommended"
    type in the manual, and it is your choice if you wish to put in a higher grade. However
    the fuel may run too hot for a specific engine, but then again it is your choice, put in
    any fuel you want. The most expensive vehicle owners on average pay more for servicing,
    parts, insurance as it is. However it's a personal preference on how much money and time
    one wants to spend maintaining their car, it can be as costly if not more than you can
    imagine. The analogy works more often in practice with insurance than fuel.
  • 04-28-2009, 09:23 AM
    markw
    Or, could it be...
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by OzzieAudiophile
    The analogy with the fuel is different in the sense that the vehicles have a "recommended"
    type in the manual, and it is your choice if you wish to put in a higher grade. However
    the fuel may run too hot for a specific engine, but then again it is your choice, put in
    any fuel you want. The most expensive vehicle owners on average pay more for servicing,
    parts, insurance as it is. However it's a personal preference on how much money and time
    one wants to spend maintaining their car, it can be as costly if not more than you can
    imagine. The analogy works more often in practice with insurance than fuel.

    ...that any claims of superiority could be put to rest by scientific testing and accurate measurments? Oh wait, that same rules apply to cables as well but some claim to have better hearing than the most sensitive measuring devices.
  • 04-28-2009, 06:35 PM
    E-Stat
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    ...that any claims of superiority could be put to rest by scientific testing and accurate measurments? Oh wait, that same rules apply to cables as well but some claim to have better hearing than the most sensitive measuring devices.

    If cables were products that were used by themselves then I would agree with you. Unfortunately, they are measured in a vacuum as though they were. In the real world, however, they become part of the a complex system with numerous interactions that three sets of numbers are incapable of quantifying. The sound of source components, amplifiers and speakers can vary depending upon the load presented by the cables used.

    rw
  • 04-28-2009, 07:52 PM
    RoadRunner6
    Gee OzzieAudiophile, I didn't realize your comment about $20 cables was so deep with multiple meanings. I'll be sure and read your posts much more carefully in the future.

    I mistakingly thought you were saying why waste money on a cable that only costs $20 and I was simply responding that fine quality cables are available for $20. Not all products come with included cables you know. For example, my Emotiva amp did not come with RCA or balanced cables. I purchased 6' RCA cables from Monoprice, 3 pair for a total of $8.94. I guess I saved myself $11.06 under the $20.00. When my Emotiva XMC-1 pre/pro arrives later this year I will buy XLR cables for the combo at $7.65 each. Many members of multiple forums here in the States buy from Monoprice and are very happy with the quality and "sound" if you will.

    http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2

    There is difference between being advised and told? Wow OzzieAudiophile. Now we are rally getting deep into semantics.

    Oh yes Ozzie, to quote you," If you took time to actually read what I said instead of misquoting me, I said that" "only buy more expensive connectors when I can hear or see the difference in a blind test. That is one reason I buy quality cable leads to my TV, I can see the difference." (due to interference) BTW, quality doesn't mean $300/meter!

    Yes, I'm very aware Ozzie that many spend lots on conncectors. I only pass on my opinion that there is another side to this and many people including many pros feel there is no audible difference. I don't waste my money on snake oil. Sorry if you don't like it when someone offers an opinion different from yours.

    RR6 :ciappa:
  • 04-28-2009, 09:05 PM
    Mr Peabody
    The fuel analogy is not even an analogy that can apply to cables. Cables are more like the tweaks those higher end cars use under the hood to gain performance. Or, maybe the tires. Some might buy $40.00 tires, where some might buy $400.00. Same job, just some do it better, same can be said for cables. If one had a Porsche it could benefit from Perelli's or Michelen where that might be considered overkill on a Hyundi. Same with hi fi a Krell Levinson or whatever would benefit or be able to reveal the benefit of a better cable where a $300.00 cable is a bit overkill for a HT receiver.

    RR6, it would stand to reason that if you can see a difference in cables effect on a video display that there is at least, a difference in cables. So if there is a difference for video, how can you believe audio would be that much different? I also believe there are posts here where you have recommended people to buy Blue Jeans. Although those are comparatively budget they are a far cry from monoprice. Monoprice is on par with what is given by manufacturer's for free.

    The thing is any one can try most any cable with no risk but some would rather sit back and cast doubts based on basically nothing except their imagination.
  • 04-29-2009, 02:06 AM
    OzzieAudiophile
    Hi RR6. That's cool.

    I have no particular problem with Blue Jeans cable, Monoprice, or any other particular
    brand cable.

    I value the importance of trying out various brands of anything, and being able to make
    an informed decision, also letting one's own ears decide.

    I'd rather not spend any more money than I need to for future upgrades, but I value
    my listening experience above most of my other interests. So upgrading some parts
    is something I will keep on doing. Technology improves.
  • 04-29-2009, 03:24 AM
    RoadRunner6
    Mr. Peabody, I have indeed recommended Blue Jeans cables especially since they are a local Seattle company. I recommended Monoprice after I became aware of them and tried them out. They are extremely well built. If I have only one complaint, it is that they tend to be a little on the stiff side.

    I do in fact own more expensive cables. I own a 25' Monster sub cable. I bought it because of the perfect color match to my wall paint and the fact that it is very pliable and it needed to twist and squeeze into some tight places in its run to the sub (I did get it for 50% off online). I have other even more expensive cables, but not for reasons I can see or hear.

    Have you ever bought Monpirce cables, probably not? Since they are so low priced why not give them a try just once and check them out. I think you will be surprised and not make the "far cry" comment which I presume you are obviously basing only on price. The price is simply amazing, sort of like Emotiva. After awhile many buyers, with some knowledge in product distribution, realize it is more to do with profit stucture than quality difference, either physical or performance wise. I try to let others know about them because they are such an amazing value. If others were aware of the different profit structure by a dealer on components versus accessories perhaps they would understand the emphasis and introduction of new profit centers cleverly diguised as performance inhancers.

    Your presumptions about exterior interference on video antenna cable don't logically lead to your conclusions about all video and audio cables.

    We both know this is a never ending discussion about connections including speaker wire and whether anyone can detect any difference. I obviously am on the objective side and can quote all day long from people with many years in the business who disagree with your side. You can also give lots of arguments for your side.

    Whenever this comes up I try if I have time to let others know that there are cheaper cable choices that are just as good quality wise with no difference in performance IMO. I am glad others turned me on to Monprice as they have with Emotiva. I in turn pass on the word to others. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in our hobby and I don't buy a bit of it unless I see objective proof.

    You will, I'm sure, continue to give your side of this controversy with your own experiences in having heard and seen differences.

    My motivation is simply to help other out who like me are on limited budgets and want the best bang for the buck.

    RR6 :biggrin5:
  • 04-29-2009, 05:26 AM
    Mr Peabody
    RR6, your original post did not say anything about "antenna" cable.

    High profit margin has nothing to do at all whether a product can perform or not. Have you seen the astronomical profit on phono cartridges? Are you going to say there's no difference between them as well?

    It is true we should agree to disagree but it should be on the fact that you say you haven't heard or saw difference and I certainly have. As I state over and over, no one has to take my word for it but they should at least try for themselves, both cheap like monoprice and more expensive quality cables. Only one can determine truly for themselves. And, as you state your skepticism I must state I have benefited from better cables in case the next person may be able to as well.
  • 05-01-2009, 06:54 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr Peabody
    As I state over and over, no one has to take my word for it but they should at least try for themselves, both cheap like monoprice and more expensive quality cables. Only one can determine truly for themselves. And, as you state your skepticism I must state I have benefited from better cables in case the next person may be able to as well.

    AMEN!
  • 05-01-2009, 07:44 PM
    RoadRunner6
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    That is one reason I buy quality cable leads to my TV, I can see the difference.

    ("cable leads" here refers to the signal from my cable wall outlet to the TV cable input)

    Peabody said in the above post: "RR6, your original post did not say anything about "antenna" cable."

    Perhaps you didn't understand I was using cable leads and antenna cable to be the same thing.

    Mr. Peabody you continue to misquote and misconstrue my comments. I didn't say high profit margins affect performance. I implied that it is a reason that dealers push the sales of these items so hard and make outrageous claims for them.

    No I didn't in any way say there were no differences in phone cartridges. You like to put words in the mouths of others.

    You seem to imply that others should try for themselves to see if they can hear any differences. However, your commenbts only seem to apply to expensive cables. I have not seen you encourage anyone to try Monoprice cables or even Emotiva amps for that matter. Isn't it interesting that you apparently have not even tried them for yourself. I would think most people would prefer to start at the bottom, price wise, and work up.
  • 05-01-2009, 10:04 PM
    Mr Peabody
    RR6, you assume to much. Of course, I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I am not one who could afford to walk in and buy the type of gear I have now to start with. I have had something that played music since I was old enough to turn the knob. I started in grade school with a fold up turntable and bought records from yard sales. Going to all-in-one stereos to eventually my dad bought me my first receiver when I graduated high school. I will spare you the middle, I know how much better my gear and accessories are now. If there weren't any benefit I wouldn't be using them. I do not recommend Emotiva because I have not heard one. I do not recommend Monoprice because I do not recommend crap. I would recommend Monoprice for any one who needed the absolute cheapest cable on the market. If anyone pays attention to my posts I stick to what I have had experience with and when not I will preface my statement with "I heard" or "I read" etc.

    You know the same can be said about you and Emotiva, because you spent what you did and it's so heavy you were placeboed to think it sounds good. I mean, aside from everything else the first thing you hear is, "it's heavy, a back breaker", so an amp that heavy has to sound good, right? It's built like a tank!

    It's actually some of the reviews that makes me so skeptical of Emotiva. The claims are too wild. As good as my Threshold, replacing my Mac, etc. That guy could sell that Threshold replace it with a two channel Emotiva and come out with a profit but I didn't read that in the review or no hint of replacing the Threshold. Look, the Adcom 5500 sold for around $1k and I know what it can do. So if Emotiva can find cheap labor, cut out middle men and distribution, have true intentions and sell an amp at $800.00, there is certainly possibility of it being a great performer for the money. Maybe even a "giant killer" but let's keep, some, perspective.

    One other quick point, whether lead, cable, wire, or what ever you want to call it next, you still said you saw a difference. So if you can see a difference in just that wire, there, by reason could be differences in other wire products. If you are going from cable wall outlet to TV I don't see much you can upgrade there. It's all RF and as long as using RG59 you should be good. So if you saw a difference there you should be excited to try cables in other areas of your system where there is plentiful variety of prices and quality
  • 05-02-2009, 05:47 AM
    RoadRunner6
    Mr. Peabody, how do you know Monprice is "crap." Because it is cheap? You like to recommend that people try different cables and "listen" to them. You keep harping on the fact that why would so many people buy expensive cables if they didn't sound so good. Isn't the same true of Monprice. We are talking about people with high quality equipment that I first heard about Monoprice from.

    Mr. Peabody said: "So if Emotiva can find cheap labor, cut out middle men and distribution, have true intentions and sell an amp at $800.00, there is certainly possibility of it being a great performer for the money. Maybe even a "giant killer" (Maybe you are starting to see the light Mr. Peabody, except it is a great performer for 1/3 the money). BTW, weight is just one indication of quality in AB amps. All other specs being equal I'll take the amp that wieghs 70 lbs over the one that weighs 40 lbs every time. If you can't figure that out you need to go back and start over with audio/HT 101.

    "It's all RF and as long as using RG59 you should be good." (bingo! you are starting to catch on)

    "If anyone pays attention to my posts I stick to what I have had experience with and when not I will preface my statement with "I heard" or "I read" etc" (doesn't sound like that's the case with Monprice or Emotiva)

    "It's actually some of the reviews that makes me so skeptical of Emotiva. The claims are too wild." (Oh, what reviews from what sources do you pay attention to then, can you name some of them?)

    "I do not recommend Emotiva because I have not heard one." (so why then do you trash talk about Emotiva and those who have bought and heard them)

    I just pass on what I feel are amazing values on products that I have purchased. Since I have been in a fairly tight financial condition over the past few decades this has precluded me from being able to afford separates for many years. Finding out about Emotiva gave me the opportunity to get back into separates. I would not have pulled the trigger unless I felt they were top quality products. By the end of 2009, I will have in one year's time, bought a very powerful and fine 5 channel amp (Emo XPA-5), a state of the art pre/pro with phono (Emo XMC-1) and a state of the art Blu-Ray/Universal DVD player (Oppo DMP-83) all shipped to my house for under $2250. I think that is an amazing price/performance deal in this hobby. I am pleased to pass on this information to others who might come to this forum looking for recommendations.

    I don't understand your insistance on badmouthing these products when you seem to know absolutely nothing about them except their relatively very low price.
  • 05-02-2009, 03:23 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    Mr. Peabody, how do you know Monprice is "crap." Because it is cheap? You like to recommend that people try different cables and "listen" to them. You keep harping on the fact that why would so many people buy expensive cables if they didn't sound so good. Isn't the same true of Monprice. We are talking about people with high quality equipment that I first heard about Monoprice from.

    * I've had some experience with their product..

    Mr. Peabody said: "So if Emotiva can find cheap labor, cut out middle men and distribution, have true intentions and sell an amp at $800.00, there is certainly possibility of it being a great performer for the money. Maybe even a "giant killer" (Maybe you are starting to see the light Mr. Peabody, except it is a great performer for 1/3 the money). BTW, weight is just one indication of quality in AB amps. All other specs being equal I'll take the amp that wieghs 70 lbs over the one that weighs 40 lbs every time. If you can't figure that out you need to go back and start over with audio/HT 101.

    * Buying audio by weight now, that gave me a good chuckle. Especially as my 5 channel amp weighs a whopping 11 lbs.

    "It's all RF and as long as using RG59 you should be good." (bingo! you are starting to catch on)

    * I don't know what you are so happy about you are the one who said he saw a difference. RG-59 would be the least important cable to my system. If you can tell a difference in just that, then there's hope for you as well.

    "If anyone pays attention to my posts I stick to what I have had experience with and when not I will preface my statement with "I heard" or "I read" etc" (doesn't sound like that's the case with Monprice or Emotiva)

    Have I said anything negative about Emotiva? I believe I just pointed out obvious issues and areas of personal pause for thought.

    "It's actually some of the reviews that makes me so skeptical of Emotiva. The claims are too wild." (Oh, what reviews from what sources do you pay attention to then, can you name some of them?)

    * If you want to know to which reviews I made my comments from, you should read what you splatter all over the board. If you want to know what reviews I read personally, I normally do not.

    "I do not recommend Emotiva because I have not heard one." (so why then do you trash talk about Emotiva and those who have bought and heard them)

    * I don't trash talk Emotiva. I also do not trash talk those who buy them, just you. And, I really wouldn't call that trash talking. I thought we were merely having a bit of a debate.

    I just pass on what I feel are amazing values on products that I have purchased. Since I have been in a fairly tight financial condition over the past few decades this has precluded me from being able to afford separates for many years. Finding out about Emotiva gave me the opportunity to get back into separates. I would not have pulled the trigger unless I felt they were top quality products. By the end of 2009, I will have in one year's time, bought a very powerful and fine 5 channel amp (Emo XPA-5), a state of the art pre/pro with phono (Emo XMC-1) and a state of the art Blu-Ray/Universal DVD player (Oppo DMP-83) all shipped to my house for under $2250. I think that is an amazing price/performance deal in this hobby. I am pleased to pass on this information to others who might come to this forum looking for recommendations.

    I don't understand your insistance on badmouthing these products when you seem to know absolutely nothing about them except their relatively very low price.

    * You really seem to miss the point of what I say. Is that a comprehension issue or preconceived ideas before you even complete my post? You also continue to make assumptions based on nothing.
  • 05-02-2009, 07:03 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    RR6 - I'M LISTENING, or am going to.
    RR6

    I have said many times that if you can't hear a difference, you shouldn't spend the extra money. In trying to listen to myself, I am going to buy some Monoprice cables and try them out. You have me interested and I'm all about saving money if I can. I will be able to compare them to IXOS, Radio Shack's Gold, Radio Shack's old top of the line Fusion which was better than their Monster line they now have, Blue Jean Cable's LC-1 and a pair of Transparent that were about $75 a few years ago. I'll get back with you.
  • 05-02-2009, 08:47 PM
    RoadRunner6
    IBSTORMIN, I find the Monoprice site a little confusing to browse. You have to dig a little to find some of their cables. Be sure to try only their premium cables. They have blow up photos that give you a good picture of the ends. There service is very fast and shipping is cheap.

    Blue-Jeans are definitely more attractive but I think the difference ends there. You might also be interested in Tartan Cable which is Blue Jeans cheaper brand. Lots of good reports on Tartan cables.

    http://www.tartancable.com/stereo-cables/index.htm

    Emotiva will have their line of cables out in several months. Photos look very nice, but no price info yet.

    RR6
  • 05-02-2009, 09:49 PM
    RoadRunner6
    RR6 wrote:

    "..........BTW, weight is just one indication of quality in AB amps. All other specs being equal I'll take the amp that wieghs 70 lbs over the one that weighs 40 lbs every time..........."

    Mr. Peabody responded:

    "..........Buying audio by weight now, that gave me a good chuckle. Especially as my 5 channel amp weighs a whopping 11 lbs..........."

    Mr. Peabody can't seem to read that I was refering to AB amps. His Linn is a lightweight switching amplifier. He doesn't seem to know the difference or perhaps he just can't read my post.

    How can one cary on a reasonably intelligent and logical discussion with someone who's mind can't seem to focus on the simplest of statements.

    I give up! Perhaps you might try some of this Mr. Peabody.

    http://www.focusfactor.com/Default.aspx

    Good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.


    RR6 :biggrin5:
  • 05-04-2009, 07:35 PM
    RoadRunner6
    Not to beat a dead horse here but I did run across an interesting comment by a poster over at the AVS Forum (Stevec325).

    I just received an e-mail from Oppo, since I was on their EAP list, allowing me to advance order a BDP-83. I was at the AVS Forum reading up on some of the info on the BDP-83, when I saw the following comment:

    ".......... They are the same stock as those from Monoprice. Either they are getting them there, or from the same source. In any case, they are the exact same stock
    __________________
    -steve
    Oppo BDP-83 EAP-2 Tester.........."

    The comment here referred to the HDMI cables from Monoprice and those included with Oppo players and sold separately by Oppo. Looking at Steve's equipmet list shows that he owns Oppo gear and also Monoprice cables.

    So it would seem to indicate that Oppo considers the Monprice cables not to detract from the highly acclaimed performance of their components.

    RR6
  • 05-04-2009, 08:08 PM
    Mr Peabody
    Either that or they are the cheapest they could find for a freeby. Using your logic means the cheezy cables we get for free with other such products are satisfactory as well. I don't think so. Does it get the job done, yes, can it be improved on, definitely. That's even if this guy's guess is correct.
  • 05-05-2009, 01:09 AM
    RoadRunner6
    I imagine if he had both of the cables sitting right in front of him it was more than a guess.
  • 05-05-2009, 04:54 AM
    audio amateur
    I tried to make the most direct comparison between a pair of 1.5 foot Merlin Cables 'Chopin' (approx 150 bucks) and a 2 foot pair of Radioshack Gold and as hard as I tried I wasn't hearing any difference. This wasn't a usual test in that I played a mono source, had one cable going in to different inputs on the amp, and stacked my two B&Ws. I could then make a direct switch between the two speakers, same source material, different cable. Obviously this was mono playback, and the two speakers weren't EXACTLY in the same spot as one was on top of the other. Still, im sure it gave me a good idea of revealing the differences, which were either minute, or non-existing.
    I returned the Chopin (1 month trial) as 1. I couldn't hear any difference, and 2. I needed the money back. The locking connectors were a nice touch though, that's one thing I miss about the cable, and the very stocky looks.

    I'd like to try Blue Jean Cables and even perhaps monoprice but as I'm not living in the US at the moment it's not really a possibility.
  • 05-05-2009, 08:00 AM
    Poultrygeist
    Expensive cables and human suggestability
    If you think it sounds better then it does - the placebo effect is alive and well and highly profitable.
  • 05-05-2009, 09:56 AM
    Hyfi
    I recently started using Synergistic Research Signature1 Speaker cables I got with a complete system I bought in a garage sale. They are 14' in length. When I contacted Synergistic about the possibility of cutting them in half to make two pairs, they replied that their cables are "Components" and "would you cut an amplifier in half to make two". They did say that they would shorten them only for $300 but not make two pairs.

    I was not happy with the answer but I'm not about to screw up the value, resale value, and possible positive snake oil included in their construction.

    I said it a ways back in this thread. A pair of ICs costing $500 in no way "sound" 5X better than those costing $100.

    I can tell you that in my experience, the Synergistc speaker cables worth $1200 do sound better than my $200 Tara Labs Prism cables but not 6X better.

    The other thing to consider, just like matching amps to speakers is that a single set of ICs will appear to sound different between different Amp and Pre.

    The bottom line is what your expendable budget is, how much you believe in cable differences, and mostly which cables sound better coupled with YOUR gear no matter what the cost is.

    If you believe with all your heart and the info you have read that there are no differences, then just use the Black & Reds that came with your gear and move on.
  • 05-05-2009, 09:59 AM
    audio amateur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Poultrygeist
    If you think it sounds better then it does - the placebo effect is alive and well and highly profitable.

    haha :lol:
  • 05-05-2009, 10:00 AM
    audio amateur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    I recently started using Synergistic Research Signature1 Speaker cables I got with a complete system I bought in a garage sale. They are 14' in length. When I contacted Synergistic about the possibility of cutting them in half to make two pairs, they replied that their cables are "Components" and "would you cut an amplifier in half to make two". They did say that they would shorten them only for $300 but not make two pairs.

    That's a shockingly bad answer
  • 05-05-2009, 04:37 PM
    Kevio
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by audio amateur
    That's a shockingly bad answer

    Not a bad answer from the perspective of making money though.
  • 05-05-2009, 04:46 PM
    markw
    This is hard to believe.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Hyfi
    I recently started using Synergistic Research Signature1 Speaker cables I got with a complete system I bought in a garage sale. They are 14' in length. When I contacted Synergistic about the possibility of cutting them in half to make two pairs, they replied that their cables are "Components" and "would you cut an amplifier in half to make two". They did say that they would shorten them only for $300 but not make two pairs.

    Not what you posted, but their response.

    Are they implying that cutting the cables in half and terminating both ends will hurt the sound in the two cable pairs, but only terminating one pair so you only wind up with one pair won't? What happens to the surplus wire?

    ...and who is trying to tell me that greed and gullibility aren't the two main driving factors in this industry?
  • 05-05-2009, 06:59 PM
    IBSTORMIN
    1 Attachment(s)
    Already ordered Monoprice
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RoadRunner6
    IBSTORMIN, I find the Monoprice site a little confusing to browse. You have to dig a little to find some of their cables. Be sure to try only their premium cables. They have blow up photos that give you a good picture of the ends. There service is very fast and shipping is cheap.

    Blue-Jeans are definitely more attractive but I think the difference ends there. You might also be interested in Tartan Cable which is Blue Jeans cheaper brand. Lots of good reports on Tartan cables.

    http://www.tartancable.com/stereo-cables/index.htm

    Emotiva will have their line of cables out in several months. Photos look very nice, but no price info yet.

    RR6

    NOW you tell me. I ordered these right after my last post. Hopefully I got what you suggested, as you can see I am going to try several. I'll let you know what I think.
  • 05-06-2009, 02:48 AM
    audio amateur
    Thos cables are DIRT cheap. It'd be nice to have some pics too when you get them
  • 05-06-2009, 05:25 AM
    IBSTORMIN
    Can do.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by audio amateur
    Thos cables are DIRT cheap. I'd be nice have some pics too when you get them

    From what I figure, they should be in today. I'll post pics with my comments after I listen to them.
  • 05-06-2009, 06:36 AM
    RoadRunner6
    IBSTORMIN, those all look like the premium cables except for the #2743 which appears to be the regular version of the premium #2681.

    AA, for some nice close up photos, go to http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp and enter the part numbers on the left side of his invoice into the Monoprice search window. Click on the description and then on "click for larger image" to view closups of the cables and connectors or any other of their products. Customer feedback on all products under "customer review."

    Check here for products listed by category: http://www.monoprice.com/products/index.html
  • 05-06-2009, 07:04 AM
    zepman1
    I'll chime in since I have used the Monoprice cables a number of times. Generally speaking their cables and interconnects are of very good quality and build. Unbelievable for the price really. But when you break it down, what it costs Blue Jeans to build a 3' interconnect, the profit margins are pretty large so it is easy to see how Monoprice can be priced so low and still have a similar product.

    I have compared them directly with Blue Jeans cable and Monster and think they are all about the same with some differences (not in sound though, only build). Monoprice uses RG-59 and RG-6 for all interconnects, just like Belden (used by Blue Jeans). Monoprice cables seem to be very stiff, which makes them hard to work with in some cases, but not excessively so. Monster cables are always nice and supple which is nice. Blue Jeans Canare connectors are a bit nicer than what is used on the monoprice. The monoprice (premium cables only) still use a nice connector though, its just not Canare quality. In all cases I have heard no difference between any of these cables (on my modest mid-fi equipment anyhow, Onkyo, Marantz, Monitor Audio etc.).

    Monoprice HDMI cables are the same as the lower priced Blue Jeans cables, and priced similarly. I do not see why you would need anything more when they are selling HDMI v1.3a Catergory 2 certified cables. I would only buy the more expensive Blue Jeans if I needed a really long cable 50', because the cheaper ones are only certified to 35-40' I think.

    Just my 2 cents. If you have a mid priced system, I think monoprice is a great way to go, and definitely sounds no different than Blue Jeans or Monster. If you have a high end setup, I would at least try something nicer for comparisons sake. If you need eye candy, then monoprice is not that either.
  • 05-06-2009, 08:28 AM
    audio amateur
    Tanks RR6
  • 05-06-2009, 08:34 AM
    audio amateur
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kevio
    Not a bad answer from the perspective of making money though.

    Not if you loose customers doing so...
  • 05-06-2009, 09:05 AM
    Hyfi
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by markw
    Not what you posted, but their response.

    Are they implying that cutting the cables in half and terminating both ends will hurt the sound in the two cable pairs, but only terminating one pair so you only wind up with one pair won't? What happens to the surplus wire?

    ...and who is trying to tell me that greed and gullibility aren't the two main driving factors in this industry?

    I was floored also after several emails to Synergistic. They told me that in order to cut and properly re-terminate the cable that it would interfere with production of new cables. Also, I would have had to be the original owner with papers to prove it which I am not.

    I don't know if there is any proprietary termination techniques used that I would screw up if I did it myself. I could not find anyone willing to do it for a fee except some guy in Canada. I was also advised that if I cut and re-terminated them that they could no longer be resold as true Synergistic cables.

    I am a little apprehensive to touch these cables since they cost $1200 when the guy I got them from bought them.

    All in all I did not like their responses and posted about it on another board and someone from Synergistic chimed in to call me a liar and then I posted the full email from his co-worker that he must have been unaware of and the thread ended there.