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Oh, magnet man...
...if you switch over to one of the alternative display modes, you will see my response was directed to E-stat and not you(specifically OR collectively)...
If you are aware of that fact and have simply taken issue with my not-so-subtle injection of sarcastic neo-classical wit into your scientific abstract, my apologies...
I will get around to reading your missive at some point...I take no issue with your position and look forward to perhaps learning something from it.
jimHJJ(...Happy New year...bite me nonetheless...)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
I submit: There are no audio power amplifiers in existence that can handle temporal accuracy with low impedance loads to the 1 to 10 uSec level for random, multifrequency signals...
I submit: Nobody has attempted to measure current slew error in an amplifier driving a low impedance reactive load, with accuracy approaching 1 uSec within the frequency range of 500 hz to about 12 Khz, the region for which lateralization data exists.. And, furthermore, most of the people on this planet do not understand what it takes to do it correctly. (I do not suffer from that condition).
Oh, you mean like my full range electrostats that present a reactive load that falls below 4 ohms across four octaves?
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...if you switch over to one of the alternative display modes, you will see my response was directed to E-stat and not you(specifically OR collectively)...
As I am discussing the scientific methodology being established to measure accurately, issues which are central to the cable debate, your response, while directed at E-stat, by nature, certainly does include me.. (that's a fancy way of bypassing the fact that I didn't realize you posted to him...:-) When I tried hybrid mode or thread mode all I got was a blank screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...If you are aware of that fact and have simply taken issue with my not-so-subtle injection of sarcastic neo-classical wit into your scientific abstract, my apologies...
I am thoroughly aware that I didn't understand what you just said...ya gotta be gentle with me, I'm not that good at english...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resident Loser
...I will get around to reading your missive at some point...I take no issue with your position and look forward to perhaps learning something from it.
jimHJJ(...Happy New year...bite me nonetheless...)
Bite me nonetheless?????? Youze talkin ta me???
Cheers, John
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Placebo
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicoverall
Even if I could explain the science behind cables, what good would it do?
You would be able to see past the high end audio cable/interconnect nonsense, and in the process you would save a lot of money.
High End Audio Cables = Placebo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
You would be able to see past the high end audio cable/interconnect nonsense, and in the process you would save a lot of money.
High End Audio Cables = Placebo
I think I've discovered your problem. Audio systems require hearing, not seeing. :)
rw
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I used to be a cable non-believer because i had tried so many different cables, and nothing seemed to make a difference... then one day i got a new amp, and decided to try a passive preamp i had built with it... i switched a few cables, because the one i was using wasn't quite long enough and placed the preamp in an awkward position... i used a longer cable and suddenly the sound changed.. i was like huh??.. it became much brighter and highly detailed. I didn't quite know what to do... and at first didn't realize it was the cable that had done it.
When i change the Resistor in my Preamp from a Holco to a Caddock or an Audio Note tantalum, most people don't question that the sound changes, and when i change the Capacitors in my Preamp from plain old Phillips this-or-that Polyester caps to Hovland Musicaps or Auricaps or Multicaps or what have you, most people also don't question that there is an audible improvement, however why do people always question that there is a difference when you use different cables? I mean, a solid copper connector compared with a nickel plated connector are going to sound different..... compound that with the fact that you added a Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifier and all the conductors are pure silver and you have quite a difference between that and your run of the mill radio shack cable.
You can prove that there is a difference in conductivity between nickel and silver and copper, and you can prove that different dielectrics cause difference levels of signal loss, so why not difference in performance of cables?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
I think I've discovered your problem. Audio systems require hearing, not seeing. :)
rw
Heh, that's ironic that you believe that audio systems require hearing and not seeing. I've posted in two separate threads a direct question to you, E-Stat, asking why you feel that sighted testing is somehow <i>the</i> testing method of choice instead of blind testing. That's what I would call hearing and not seeing....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
You would be able to see past the high end audio cable/interconnect nonsense, and in the process you would save a lot of money.
High End Audio Cables = Placebo
And in the process, I would lose some musical detail. If I wanted that tradeoff, I would have stuck with cheap cables.
Again (and again), what cables have you tried in order to determine that high end cables are nonsense and a placebo? And in what systems?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-Stat
Audio systems require hearing, not seeing. :)
rw
Couldn't agree more, why purchase flashy expensive cables that don't improve sound quality. ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicoverall
And in the process, I would lose some musical detail. If I wanted that tradeoff, I would have stuck with cheap cables.
Again (and again), what cables have you tried in order to determine that high end cables are nonsense and a placebo? And in what systems?
Does it matter what cables I have tried? If I say I have tried every after market cable with the worlds most refined stereo and can hear no improvements in sound quality you would say I have bad hearing. The fact still remains: 12 AWG zip cord does not attenuate an audio signal an audible amount nor does it cause any audible distortion (unless you can hear a pin drop while a 747 is taking off). I suggest you read this article and come to terms with the fact that the improvements you know you can hear are in your head.
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
Does it matter what cables I have tried? If I say I have tried every after market cable with the worlds most refined stereo and can hear no improvements in sound quality you would say I have bad hearing. The fact still remains: 12 AWG zip cord does not attenuate an audio signal an audible amount nor does it cause any audible distortion (unless you can hear a pin drop while a 747 is taking off). I suggest you read this article and come to terms with the fact that the improvements you know you can hear are in your head.
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
Yes, the improvements I can hear are in my head since that's where my ears are located! ;)
It does matter what cables you've tried, and what systems, and what music and in what rooms. Otherwise, your comments are theory and opinion, nothing more. My opinion is based on experience and it differs from yours. I have no problem with differences of opinion. Why does it threaten you so?
Thanks for the article. I'll read it now.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
I suggest you read this article and come to terms with the fact that the improvements you know you can hear are in your head.
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html
The article wasn't about cables - it was about the Placebo Effect. I found it particularly interesting that placebo is not universally accepted as fact or, more accurately, it's being challenged. Hrobjartsson and Gotzche sound like the kind of scientists the world needs more of - the kind that challenge the status quo. That's how science advances, no? And I see that Dr John C Bailar III states that now the proof needs to be supplied by those making the REAL claims - those that proclaim the Placebo Effect is at work.
To sum up, I don't think the article you supplied does a very good job of supporting your position, at least not as anything suggesting actual proof. It does, however, show that there is a body of current belief that would suggest that cable sonics are the result of placebo. It also shows that that theory was challenged in 2001. I did enjoy reading the article, though. Thanks!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
The fact still remains: 12 AWG zip cord does not attenuate an audio signal an audible amount nor does it cause any audible distortion.
Hmmm..
I didn't recall him saying anything about attenuation, nor did he say anything about audible distortion.
What he said was "musical detail". You (a generalization, not just you personally) made the assumption that musical detail meant amplitude based distortion.
I do not believe the two of you are talking about the same thing.
Cheers, John
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I'm glad my experience is cheaper. Good old RS stuff works good for me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shokhead
I'm glad my experience is cheaper. Good old RS stuff works good for me.
I personally do not care much for RS stuff, as I have had quality issues in the past with the parts, like diodes, 1/4 jacks, etc. But have, on occasion, purchased from them recently without any problems.
Of course, I had an old 22wpch realistic receiver I purchased in '73, and abused it for 20 years without even one failure..go figure.
I go with the provided 50 cent cables that come with my purchase for my ht setup at home, I use 90 cent PE stuff for my "play", I use 12/3 extension cord in neon colors for my mobile pro apps, with neutrik 4 pole speakons as terminations. Cheap, high quality, works in the app...
The build quality of the el cheapo stuff ain't the best, so I'd recommend at least some quality stuff, but for what I do, expensive provides no additional benefit for me.
I will however, recommend gold plating, especially for 1/4 jacks..as nickel plated ones tend to give me intermittents. And, real cheap RCA's, I will crimp them on occasion because they tend to lose the ground integrity. For less knowledgable or experienced users, getting a better RCA is certainly worth it for long term contact integrity.
Cheers, John
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
Couldn't agree more, why purchase flashy expensive cables that don't improve sound quality. ;)
I wouldn't and don't. I do, however, purchase cables that do improve sound quality. Albeit just a bit, but enought for my investment.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicoverall
My opinion is based on experience and it differs from yours. I have no problem with differences of opinion. Why does it threaten you so?
Your opinion makes me feel insecure about my opinion. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. :(
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron
What he said was "musical detail". You (a generalization, not just you personally) made the assumption that musical detail meant amplitude based distortion.
I do not believe the two of you are talking about the same thing.
What is musical detail? What does it mean?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magictooth
Heh, that's ironic that you believe that audio systems require hearing and not seeing. I've posted in two separate threads a direct question to you, E-Stat, asking why you feel that sighted testing is somehow <i>the</i> testing method of choice instead of blind testing.
Quite honestly, I don't know exactly to what you are referring. I did a search and reread several interchanges between us. My guess is that you are either misreading my comments or reading something into them that is not there. I will be happy to respond to any specifics.
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
You will here no improvement in sound quality by using more expensive interconnects/cables/connectors if that is what you are asking.
The differences caused by cable choices range from subtle to obvious. The more revealing, not expensive, though they tend to go together, the system the more audible the differences become.
The listening acuity of the listener develops over time. The longer one listens to reproduced music in the home, the more refined one's ability becomes to hear differences in systems.
Can all poster's give a list of their systems?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
What is musical detail? What does it mean?
An example of musical detail is the subtle vibrato of a violin that adds a sense of warmth and space to the performance. Less revealing systems tend to gloss over or blur subtle details, ambiance clues, and other low level parts of the performance that add a sense of realism to the recording. E.G on the album (vinyl) Ella Fitzgerald's "Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie" Verve V/V6-4053, the size of her voice is clearly dimensioned and placed in space. On a good system you can hear what appear to be subtle distance changes between her and the mic.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risabet
Can all poster's give a list of their systems.
http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html
As if anyone hasn't already figured it out already, I am partial to full range electrostats. After twenty seven happy years of Acoustats, I am finally replacing them with Sound Labs U-1s to be delivered later this month. :)
rw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckman
Your opinion makes me feel insecure about my opinion. Nobody wants to admit they are wrong. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. :(
Agreeing to disagree is cool! And you don't have to feel insecure. How're ya gonna score chicks??? I use fancy cables! :)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risabet
Can all poster's give a list of their systems?
Myryad Z140 Integrated Amp
Cambridge Audio D500SE CD Player
Infinity IL40's
Infinity IL100s Sub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicoverall
Agreeing to disagree is cool! And you don't have to feel insecure. How're ya gonna score chicks??? I use fancy cables! :)
You and I discuss cables because we find them capable of making meaningful differences in our system(s). I continue to marvel at the effort exerted by some here who find them to have no significance. Call me crazy, but I expend zero effort writing about those topics which I find inconsequential.
rw
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