How about this argument as to why cables sound different.

[Tony_Montana]

While arguing in CA, a member named Sean gave this argument as to why each cables cause different systems to sound different.

He said:

"Cables all sound the same...by themselves.

It is the electrical characteristics of each component interphase combined with the characteristics ( impedances, levels of reactance, materials used, dielectric absorption, etc... ) of the cable itself that causes variations in sonic perceptions. Change one variable in the equation ( active component or cable ) and you've change the electrical characteristics ( and sonics ) of the circuit."

That statement seem very plausible assuming the fact that all cables are not as transparent as they should be. May be that explain (to some extent) why each cable used with different systems sound different.

[skeptic]

"It is the electrical characteristics of each component interphase combined with the characteristics ( impedances, levels of reactance, materials used, dielectric absorption, etc... ) of the cable itself that causes variations in sonic perceptions. Change one variable in the equation ( active component or cable ) and you've change the electrical characteristics ( and sonics ) of the circuit."[/b]"
[/QUOTE]


That statement seem very plausible only to a neophite. Mathematically, the cable is part of a network which consists of the source, the cable and the load. When you measure the numbers and plug them in, the cable becomes an insignificant factor. The source impedence is very low, the load impedence is relatively high to the source, and the cable as well as the differences between one cable and another are insignificant. It comes as no surprise to engineers who "run the numbers" that the differences are inaudible. That's the result they expect, that's the result you get. You want to know why electrical engineers are "objectivists" on this issue? That's way. The only exception is when you have an amplifier with a relatively high source impedence (low damping factor) a long run of cable, and a low impedence loudspeaker. Then you need something special. And that special thing is heavier gage wire to reduce the series resistance so it becomes insignificant again.

Good try Tony but again NO CIGAR!

And NO SOUP FOR YOU TODAY!

[mtrycraft]

While arguing in CA, a member named Sean gave this argument as to why each cables cause different systems to sound different.

He said:

"Cables all sound the same...by themselves.

It is the electrical characteristics of each component interphase combined with the characteristics ( impedances, levels of reactance, materials used, dielectric absorption, etc... ) of the cable itself that causes variations in sonic perceptions. Change one variable in the equation ( active component or cable ) and you've change the electrical characteristics ( and sonics ) of the circuit."

That statement seem very plausible assuming the fact that all cables are not as transparent as they should be. May be that explain (to some extent) why each cable used with different systems sound different.

Then all his speculations as that is all it is, can be detected under bias controlled listening.

Bring it on

They will try all sorts of excuses before they can even demonstrate audible differences in the first place. Why is that?

[Beckman]

While arguing in CA, a member named Sean gave this argument as to why each cables cause different systems to sound different.

He said:

"Cables all sound the same...by themselves.

It is the electrical characteristics of each component interphase combined with the characteristics ( impedances, levels of reactance, materials used, dielectric absorption, etc... ) of the cable itself that causes variations in sonic perceptions. Change one variable in the equation ( active component or cable ) and you've change the electrical characteristics ( and sonics ) of the circuit."

That statement seem very plausible assuming the fact that all cables are not as transparent as they should be. May be that explain (to some extent) why each cable used with different systems sound different.

? impedance, reactance = 1/impedance, same thing - inverse

? dielectric absorbtion = capacitance, included in impedance

? sonic perceptions - does this mean how the sonic percieves the music?

I agree that different cables can sound different. I also believe that if people replaced their expensive cables with 12 AWG zip cord and listened carefully they would find their system sounds equal or better.

[bturk667]

that I can hear the difference between cables in my system.
For those you can't, well, good.

[Beckman]

that I can hear the difference between cables in my system.
For those you can't, well, good.

Why spend money on cables to alter the sound of your stereo when you can do the same thing with much more control using an equalizer?

[pctower]

Why spend money on cables to alter the sound of your stereo when you can do the same thing with much more control using an equalizer?

Well, here's one reason:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/Loudspeakers&RoomsPt3.pdf

Pages 28-31.

Of course, even if cables had the capacity to equalize, they would do even a worse job.

Seems to me that if similar cables of similar gauge and length really can sound different, the goal should not be to use cables as "tone control" or "equalizers", but use the ones that do the least damage to the signal passing through them (if, in fact, a cable really is capable of doing sonic "damage").

[skeptic]

"use the ones that do the least damage to the signal passing through them "

If by damage you mean distortion, then one cable is pretty much like another. Electrical engineers are aware of two types of distortion, linear and non linear. Linear distortion, the change in frequency/phase response is correctable through equalization. That's what you do in your color tv set when you adjust the tint control. Non linear distortion meaning harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and noise, are not correctable.

Linear distortion has been shown to vary among different speaker cables by at most two or three tenths of a db at 20khz, an insignificant quantity to anyone but those out of touch with reality. For interconnects, even that infinitesmal quantity cannot be accounted for because if the divergence were that great at 20khz, the lesser cable would not pass a 6mhz NTSC signal and yet even the least expensive ones can do it virtually perfectly. We usually think of requiring ten times the analog bandwidth transmitted to be acceptable so the cheapie interconnects for vcrs video output to tv video input should have a bandwidth of 60 mhz or more, 3000 times what is needed for high fidelity audio. All audio interconnect cables should easily meet this criteria.

As for non linear distortion, I have only John Curls numbers to go on showing (for the umpteenth time in case someone hasn't seen it before) that the worst case measured ($1 RS) was minus 120 db for the 7th harmonic of 5 khz and the best case (very expensive) was minus 135 db for the 7th harmonic of 5khz, both cases being entirely inaudible under any possible circumstances in any audio playback system. Of course there are the theorists like Jon Risch who speak of dielectic "memory" and other highly esoteric rationale for their claims of superiority of sound of one cable over another but when it comes to demonstrating electrical differences in distortion (or damage as you put it) they are at a complete loss.

When challenged with a demand for some objective proof that these differences exist and are not just imagined such as a DBT where the advocate could pick out one cable from another by sound alone, they are not only at a complete loss to give any hard evidence but at sites like CA, they refuse to even allow discussion of it under the pretense that it would only provoke flame wars. Is it any wonder then that some people viewing these claims are "skeptics?"

[pctower]

"use the ones that do the least damage to the signal passing through them "

If by damage you mean distortion, then one cable is pretty much like another. Electrical engineers are aware of two types of distortion, linear and non linear. Linear distortion, the change in frequency/phase response is correctable through equalization. That's what you do in your color tv set when you adjust the tint control. Non linear distortion meaning harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and noise, are not correctable.

Linear distortion has been shown to vary among different speaker cables by at most two or three tenths of a db at 20khz, an insignificant quantity to anyone but those out of touch with reality. For interconnects, even that infinitesmal quantity cannot be accounted for because if the divergence were that great at 20khz, the lesser cable would not pass a 6mhz NTSC signal and yet even the least expensive ones can do it virtually perfectly. We usually think of requiring ten times the analog bandwidth transmitted to be acceptable so the cheapie interconnects for vcrs video output to tv video input should have a bandwidth of 60 mhz or more, 3000 times what is needed for high fidelity audio. All audio interconnect cables should easily meet this criteria.

As for non linear distortion, I have only John Curls numbers to go on showing (for the umpteenth time in case someone hasn't seen it before) that the worst case measured ($1 RS) was minus 120 db for the 7th harmonic of 5 khz and the best case (very expensive) was minus 135 db for the 7th harmonic of 5khz, both cases being entirely inaudible under any possible circumstances in any audio playback system. Of course there are the theorists like Jon Risch who speak of dielectic "memory" and other highly esoteric rationale for their claims of superiority of sound of one cable over another but when it comes to demonstrating electrical differences in distortion (or damage as you put it) they are at a complete loss.

When challenged with a demand for some objective proof that these differences exist and are not just imagined such as a DBT where the advocate could pick out one cable from another by sound alone, they are not only at a complete loss to give any hard evidence but at sites like CA, they refuse to even allow discussion of it under the pretense that it would only provoke flame wars. Is it any wonder then that some people viewing these claims are "skeptics?"

My comment was directed solely at the issue of equalizers. I thought I had chosen my words carefully enough to avoid going down the do-cables-really-matter path again for the 1,389,048,201th time. I even bothered to mention cables at all in hopes of avoiding some sanctamoneous speech from someone who felt the need to jump in and point out that any problem Toole refers to in his article about equalizers would apply even more to cables, IF they even might make a difference (which was clearly a subject I had no interest in getting into on a general level, as it has been beat to death here beyond the cruelest torture man could possibly devise).

Apparently, however, that truly is the only issue anyone on this board is capable of discussing. I guess it is just too much of a temptation for the regulars here to avoid the need to repeat their canned stump speach at least 3 or 4 times daily.

[skeptic]

...I thought it was only the 1,389,048,200th time.

[pctower]

...I thought it was only the 1,389,048,200th time.

I stand corrected. Math was never one of my strong suits. Come to think of it, I don't recall anyone ever pointing out to me exactly what my strong suits are.

[Tony_Montana]

My comment was directed solely at the issue of equalizers. I thought I had chosen my words carefully enough to avoid going down the do-cables-really-matter path again for the 1,389,048,201th time.

PC, that speech is like caffeine for Skeptics in the morning. That is the only way for him to "get up and go" in the morning. Note the time of speech

I have thought about this issue (cable interfacing with component), and everybody got a good point on this issue which is valid considering ideal situation. But what situations that are not ideal?

For example, what about if amplifier's output impedance have low damping factor or not low by design (such as tube, valve, FET, etc..), or difficult speaker load that dip too low and or long speaker cables?........same concept can be applied to ICs.

Wouldn't these oddities coupled with cable's parameter make a component sound different (again, assuming the cable is not as transparent as it should be)? Just look at Audioholics testing of different cables and one can see that some cables have too much capacitance or some have too much inductance, and some have too much of both.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...bleFaceoff.htm

I believe some of these cables couple with abnormality of components mentioned above might indeed make a sonic change if cables are swapped out

[E-Stat]

I believe some of these cables couple with abnormality of components mentioned above might indeed make a sonic change if cables are swapped out

I too, find that theory does not always fully describe the real world.

rw

[Lowdef]

Why doesn't anyone talk about the environment our cables and components are in. As in room temperature, relative humidity, barometric pressure and so on. Any of these conditions could cause differences and as they change so might our sound. After all didn't the space shuttle blow up once for being too cold and once for being too hot. It's evident that all their instruments could not work properly under extreme conditions causing major malfunctions. Back on earth the effect might be more subtle on our sound systems but it might be audible when listening carefully and this might account for some of the differences we hear or think were hearing.

Knowlege is worthless without Common Sense
Rich

[mtrycraft]

Just look at Audioholics testing of different cables and one can see that some cables have too much capacitance or some have too much inductance, and some have too much of both.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...bleFaceoff.htm

I believe some of these cables couple with abnormality of components mentioned above might indeed make a sonic change if cables are swapped out

That cable with such a high Rs wich is equivalent to about a 22ga or smaller is not recommended for speaker cable application unless it is a very, very short run. Greenfield demonstrated audible differences between cables this thin and 16 ga and 12 ga cables. The 22 ga is just not comparable to 12-16 ga cables.

If you check the others, they are bunched together with less than, what, .1 dB difference.

Those are speaker cables

[mtrycraft]

Why doesn't anyone talk about the environment our cables and components are in. As in room temperature, relative humidity, barometric pressure and so on. Any of these conditions could cause differences and as they change so might our sound.

I am sure someone could measure the differences in response due to all these. And you will find it minsicule, below threshold of detection.



After all didn't the space shuttle blow up once for being too cold and once for being too hot.

Well, some rubber o-rings failed due to temperature. Failed enough to cause the explosion. What does this has to do with audibility due to humidity change?



It's evident that all their instruments could not work properly under extreme conditions causing major malfunctions.

Not evident at all. Overlooked something. And, the o-ring was not instrumented.




Back on earth the effect might be more subtle on our sound systems but it might be audible when listening carefully and this might account for some of the differences we hear or think were hearing.

I go along with your last statement, "or think were hearing" as that is what is happening.

[Norm Strong]

Apparently, however, that truly is the only issue anyone on this board is capable of discussing. I guess it is just too much of a temptation for the regulars here to avoid the need to repeat their canned stump speach at least 3 or 4 times daily.[/QUOTE]

Of course. That's because this is the Cable Forum. If you want to discuss equalizers, take it someplace else.

[pctower]

PC, that speech is like caffeine for Skeptics in the morning. That is the only way for him to "get up and go" in the morning. Note the time of speech

I have thought about this issue (cable interfacing with component), and everybody got a good point on this issue which is valid considering ideal situation. But what situations that are not ideal?

For example, what about if amplifier's output impedance have low damping factor or not low by design (such as tube, valve, FET, etc..), or difficult speaker load that dip too low and or long speaker cables?........same concept can be applied to ICs.

Wouldn't these oddities coupled with cable's parameter make a component sound different (again, assuming the cable is not as transparent as it should be)? Just look at Audioholics testing of different cables and one can see that some cables have too much capacitance or some have too much inductance, and some have too much of both.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...bleFaceoff.htm

I believe some of these cables couple with abnormality of components mentioned above might indeed make a sonic change if cables are swapped out

Well, perhaps the interface with components could be significant. But I wonder why anyone would design components with such adnormalities. People talk about synergy, but I've never seen much actual research. But then again, I've never even seen a valid demonstration of actual sonic differences.

Who knows. I'm tired and I'm fed up with all that crap over at PropHead. What the hell is wrong with people?

[RobotCzar]

Tony,

The point is simply this: while variations exist in the electrical characteristic of the circuits created by using different components, are the differences large enough to hear?

If the electrical differences are known, it is possible to calculate the magnitude of the effects on the sound produced. Studies have established how strong the differences in sound have to be before humans can detect a difference (our hearing does not have infinite resolution). Some differences are so small we can't tell the differences among them. The calculated (and measured) values for some things (like cables) are not loud enough for us to distingush. And, when we simply test if people can hear a difference, we confirm that they cannot.

I must say that I thought skeptic gave a really nice summary above, especially in how he worked in the postions of the couple of high-end gurus he mentioned.

E-stat, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a clue. "Theory" IS predicting what he precieves (of course).. The "theory" is the effect of various psychological factors on perception, which has been well understood for decades. He simply doesn't know, understand, or accept the theory that is responsible for what he is "hearing".

[Pat D]

Well, perhaps the interface with components could be significant. But I wonder why anyone would design components with such adnormalities. People talk about synergy, but I've never seen much actual research. But then again, I've never even seen a valid demonstration of actual sonic differences.

Who knows. I'm tired and I'm fed up with all that crap over at PropHead. What the hell is wrong with people?

Well, yes, a low output impedance and a high input impedance are more or less stamdard with good equipment so interconnects should be inaudible. A low output impedance on an amplifier is desirable and so is low resistance in speaker cables, if accuracy is the goal. Perhaps those who design equipment otherwise have different goals.

The effects of a high output impedance in an amplifier are well documented, and indeed, Stereophile measures the frequency response of amplifiers into the IHF simulated 8 and 4 ohm speaker loads quite regularly (these are standard loads so that the results with different amplifiers can be easily compared). BHK labs also does similar measurements for Soundstage, and Audio magazine used to do them as well.

I am not at home but I have some articles showing differences between speaker cables of small and large gauge where the length is sufficient to make an audible difference. Anyway, mtry has given the references often enough and if you haven't bothered to look them up, that's not our fault. But it's relatively easy to ensure that the speaker cables will not make an audible difference, if that is desired.

[E-Stat]

E-stat, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a clue... " He simply doesn't know, understand, or accept the theory that is responsible for what he is "hearing".

I'm in very good company with quite a few others.

rw

[woodman]

I'm in very good company with quite a few others.

rw

Yes, I know. Sad isn't it? Gullibility among humans is rampant on the planet at this time ... especially when it comes to consumer electronics, unfortunately.

[woodman]

He said:

"Cables all sound the same...by themselves.

It is the electrical characteristics of each component interphase combined with the characteristics ( impedances, levels of reactance, materials used, dielectric absorption, etc... ) of the cable itself that causes variations in sonic perceptions. Change one variable in the equation ( active component or cable ) and you've change the electrical characteristics ( and sonics ) of the circuit."

That statement seem very plausible assuming the fact that all cables are not as transparent as they should be. May be that explain (to some extent) why each cable used with different systems sound different.

No, Tony, it doesn't. Dedicated, die-hard wire-nutzies go to great lengths - grasping at invisible straws - reaching desperately for something, anything to explain their obsession with spending vast sums on something that either:

a: makes NO difference whatsoever in the performance of their system, or
b: makes such a small, minuscule difference that it belies common sense

This quote is a classic example of this phenomenon. Although the statements - in and of themselves could be considered accurate and truthful, what is left unsaid is what's most important. That is, that these changes in electrical parameters are meaningful and therefore audible ... which they have very little chance of being. Very close to zero, in fact.

[E-Stat]

Yes, I know. Sad isn't it? Gullibility among humans is rampant on the planet at this time ... especially when it comes to consumer electronics, unfortunately.

Uh Woody, you missed one. You haven't posted an "E-Stat is gullible" message on the "Is a heavy guage (sic) power cord helpful" thread to match the other two. Are you a slacker or what?

rw

[pctower]

Uh Woody, you missed one. You haven't posted an "E-Stat is gullible" message on the "Is a heavy guage (sic) power cord helpful" thread to match the other two. Are you a slacker or what?

rw

Wouldn't it be nice to go through life that sure of things. Actually, I'd settle for anything - just one tiny little thing - that I could be that sure of.

Then I'd sit in confident judgment of anyone who lacked my God-granted certainty, glowering down at those mere mortals who remain mired in their Terminal Confusion.