Is a heavy guage power cord helpful?

[skeptic]

Here's some data from the American Wire Gage tables. #14 wire has a resistance of 2.525 ohms per thousand feet. # 8 wire has a resistance of 0.6282 ohms per thousand feet. The resistance of a 6 foot power cord (counting both legs) of # 14 wire is .0303 ohms. The comparable resistance for #8 is .0075384 ohms. With a 120 volt supply and a 10 amp draw, the voltage drop across the #14 wire is 0.303 volts meaning the amplfier would receive only 119.697 volts from 120 volt supply while using a #8 power cord would get you a .075385 volt drop applying 119.924615 volts, about a quarter of a volt more. As they say, that's close enough for government work but for those of you who can hear that small a difference, I tip my hat to you.

As for whether a #8 wire can carry more than a #14 wire, that is a more complicated question. Carrying current continuously under identiacal conditions the answer is yes. But for momentary surges, while ultimately the answer is still the same, the numbers can be astounding. For example, in an accident I witnessed in 1987 due to defective 15 kv disconnect switches (fortunately nobody was hurt or killed and no permanent damage was done to any equipment) number 12 wire carried at least 600 amps long enough to trip a GE magnablast circuit breaker but even so, the circuit upset lasted long enough for the number 12 wire to vaporize. So the current was somewhere between 600 amps and possibly as high as 100,000 amps or more. (Under identical conditions, I'm quite sure a #8 would have done the same.)

[thepogue]

this my friends is very very encouraging!! like the days of the ole AR!!! the digs...blood flyin' everywhere!! feet fur and lips just a flappin'...I LOVE THIS PLACE!! ohhhh i'm gettin goose bumps!!

[mtrycraft]

this my friends is very very encouraging!! like the days of the ole AR!!! the digs...blood flyin' everywhere!! feet fur and lips just a flappin'...I LOVE THIS PLACE!! ohhhh i'm gettin goose bumps!!

At least you could have put our names on the jersies

[mtrycraft]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF

Your question is not really relevant here, or at least not in regards to what that nonsense stated:
"The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. "

What they are claiming here is that stranded wire and solid wire of the same gauge will not pass the same current. That is pure technical ignorance in their part. Simple. Why even entertain further beliefe in their garbage?

Just one gross flaw amonge all of their nonsense.

[mtrycraft]

Money, politics - isn't a hot enough topic......

Some of it is basically correct, such as 8 AWG will, by itself, conduct higher current than 14 AWG. However, as a power cord connected to the 14 AWG in-wall wiring, the 14 AWG wiring is the limiting factor......so it becomes difficult to build a "fraud" case when at least part of the information is correct, the rest thay could just claim as being a simple mistake in editing....

-Bruce

Actually, 14ga will pass a huge amount of current before it melts from heat. So, it can pass what the 8 ga can without exceeding the 8ga stated safe insulation related capacity but exceeding the 14 ga wire's safety limits Put the 14ga on those wire poles, heat resistant ones

[zappafreak]

ZF:
You're missing the point - mostly because you've been misled by what the power cord "mfg." said in their marketing hype - err "bulletin". Of course an 8ga. wire is capable of passing more electrical current than a 14ga. wire can ... the bottom-line question must be: is this meaningful or even relevant? The answer is a big, fat NO! There is no point whatsoever in supplying more current than a given device or component actually needs. The inference that the smaller gauge power cord is LIMITING what the device receives from the wall socket, therefore impeding its ability to perform up to its potential is not only misleading ... it's flat out WRONG. If a heavier gauge power cord would make any electronic device perform better, the mfg. of said device would surely provide one for the consumer, since the cost (to them) wouldn't amount to diddly-squat.

As far as being prosecuted for this "fraud", the FTC (which is the agency responsible for policing misrepresentation) has it's hands full of what they consider more important matters to pursue. Eventually, they might get around to this one, but don't hold your breath. A "class-action" suit would certainly be possible, though. You want to instigate one?

THANKS, I GET THE POINT.
AS FAR AS INSTIGATING ANYTHING..... I AM PROBABLY THE LEAST QUALIFIED PERSON TO CHALLANGE ANYONE ON THIS STUFF. I WAS ONLY CURIOUS.
I'M ALSO CURIOUS IF POWER CONDITIONERS AND POWER PLANTS AND HOSPITAL GRADE OUTLETS ARE BOGUS AS WELL.
THANKS AGAIN,
ZF

[mtrycraft]

THANKS, I GET THE POINT.
AS FAR AS INSTIGATING ANYTHING..... I AM PROBABLY THE LEAST QUALIFIED PERSON TO CHALLANGE ANYONE ON THIS STUFF. I WAS ONLY CURIOUS.
I'M ALSO CURIOUS IF POWER CONDITIONERS AND POWER PLANTS AND HOSPITAL GRADE OUTLETS ARE BOGUS AS WELL.
THANKS AGAIN,
ZF

Certainly the many claims for them are bogus, especially for the hospital grade outlet is a whopper.
The other two may have a place, but it is a flimsy may at best.

Audio is full of voodoo, hype, bs, myth. Why should it be different from any other consumer marektplace? How would it be immune?

[zappafreak]

Certainly the many claims for them are bogus, especially for the hospital grade outlet is a whopper.
The other two may have a place, but it is a flimsy may at best.

Audio is full of voodoo, hype, bs, myth. Why should it be different from any other consumer marektplace? How would it be immune?

GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND ALL OF THE OTHERS ON AUDIOREVIEW.COM WHO HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION HAVE BEEN AN IMPRESSIVE IMMUNIZATION!
NOW, IF SOMEONE CAN JUST TELL ME IF SEPARATING THE +/- SPEAKER WIRE AND LIFTING IT OFF OF THE CARPET TO REDUCE IMPEDANCE AND HELP ELIMINATE STATIC ARE ALSO FALSE CLAIMES,VOODOO,BS,MYTH,HYPE ETC...
MANY THANKS,
ZF

[markw]

GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND ALL OF THE OTHERS ON AUDIOREVIEW.COM WHO HAVE ANSWERED MY QUESTION HAVE BEEN AN IMPRESSIVE IMMUNIZATION!
NOW, IF SOMEONE CAN JUST TELL ME IF SEPARATING THE +/- SPEAKER WIRE AND LIFTING IT OFF OF THE CARPET TO REDUCE IMPEDANCE AND HELP ELIMINATE STATIC ARE ALSO FALSE CLAIMES,VOODOO,BS,MYTH,HYPE ETC...
MANY THANKS,
ZF

ARE YOU SAYING YOU'VE HEARD THIS AND VERIFY THAT IT'S TRUE?

[okiemax]

Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement. I've stated it here at this board before and I'll state it again and again and again and again and again until people wake up and smell the morning coffee.

A POWER CORD - IN AND OF ITSELF CANNOT HAVE ANY EFFECT UPON A COMPONENT'S PERFORMANCE ... PERIOD! End of story - end of conversation. Anyone who's actually educated in electronics (and has practical hands-on experience with same) will verify what I'm saying here. It's simply not within the realm of possibility.



None of those things have the slightest bit of relevance ... none - nada - zero - zilch. It's nothing more than a hoax - a myth - smoke and mirrors - BS - hype!

You said: "Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement." I know two things for sure. (1) You are not a clairvoyant who through telepathy knows what all listeners have and have not heard. (2)You have not conducted controlled listening tests on all those who claim to hear differences, and therefore have no evidence to support your own heroic claim. You are very emphatic in your statements, but no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about your psychic powers, so please don't take offense at what I have said and put a spell on me. If I can no longer hear differences in cables, I will know who to blame.

[skeptic]

"no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance."

And that's why I gave you substance. Read my other post. Between number 8 and number 14, the difference a six foot power cord makes to the power input of an amplifier drawing 10 amps!!!!! is only a quarter of a volt. Do you understand what that means? Do I have to spell it out for you? It mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G !!!!! Nada, Nil, Negatory, Zilch, Nicht, Nein, Nyet. Capiche?????

[zappafreak]

ARE YOU SAYING YOU'VE HEARD THIS AND VERIFY THAT IT'S TRUE?

NO, I ONLY WANTED TO KNOW WHO ELSE HEARD THIS AND BELIVES IT.
AS STUPID AS IT SOUNDS, MAPLESHADE ACTUALLY SELLS SPEAKERWIRE STANDS. I DON'T RECALL WHERE IT WAS THAT I READ ABOUT SEPARATING
THE +/- LEADS BUT SUPPOSEDLY THEY SHOULD BE KEPT AT LEAST 3IN. APART
TO DECREASE IMPEDANCE. THIS STUFF SOUNDED SO GOOFEY TO ME I JUST HAD TO ASK ABOUT IT!
ZF

[okiemax]

"no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance."

And that's why I gave you substance. Read my other post. Between number 8 and number 14, the difference a six foot power cord makes to the power input of an amplifier drawing 10 amps!!!!! is only a quarter of a volt. Do you understand what that means? Do I have to spell it out for you? It mean N-O-T-H-I-N-G !!!!! Nada, Nil, Negatory, Zilch, Nicht, Nein, Nyet. Capiche?????

I doubt may readers equate being adamant with being right. Emphatic statements don't make for a compelling argument, and if overdone, may even weaken a person's argument by suggesting he is trying to compensate for no having enough factual information. An example might be you loading up your post with the word "no" in as many languages as you could imagine. This strikes me as akin to filling a flaccid ballon with hot air.

If you are saying the test data prove no one ever heard a difference when comparing an after market power cord with a stock cord, then yes, I would like to have your reasoning spelled out to me. Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?

[E-Stat]

IIf you are saying the test data prove no one ever heard a difference when comparing an after market power cord with a stock cord, then yes, I would like to have your reasoning spelled out to me. Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?

Give it up. After all, Skeptic proved that there could be no discernible difference merely with his pencil and paper.

rw

[skeptic]

Bench test measurements will back up the calculations 100%. No ifs ands or buts. And since most amplifiers rarely if ever draw 10 amps, the actual difference will be even less. Furthermore, any amplifier which would sound different when the line voltage drops by a quarter of a volt would be one piece of crap. And that's in any language you care to use.

[mtrycraft]

Give it up. After all, Skeptic proved that there could be no discernible difference merely with his pencil and paper.

rw

And, you proved it how? By claiming a difference? How marvelous. Or did you just take a poll?

[mtrycraft]

Many listeners claim to hear a difference, so how do the test data prove the difference they hear is not real?

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

[Mash]

to invest in some comprehensive Digital Multimeters so you can know what you really are dealing with. Every now and then a discontinued-meter-line sale comes along and I pick up another meter. I have 4 large auto-everything AC/DC meters and some small basic units. I can plug a large auto-everything meter into a wall plug and watch the line frequency float up and down several tenths of a Hz. Sometimes the voltage floats and sometimes it is steady, but very seldom does it sit at 120 VAC. As long as the person in control at the power plant brings his generators on-line to the grid ONLY after those generators are perfectly phase-synchronized to the grid, none of this matters a whit. [Every now and then the person in control at the power plant will connect a generator on-line to the grid that is NOT perfectly phase-synchronized to the grid and that generator explodes. Ever seen the results of a 300,000 to 500,000 pound generator that exploded? It is a bit messy.]

I quit reading about power cords, interconnects, and speaker wires long ago. I don't bother with a lot of other audio reviews and ads, either. There is always another person who has "just discovered" a terrible new problem that you in your sad ignorance have been overlooking. OH, and by the way, that kind chap who discovered the terrible problem also just happens to be able to sell you the cure......

The chaps at the Boston Audio Society looked at speaker wires in the early 1970''s and published their data showing that good old 12 AWG zip was best. Next came 14 AWG zip and 10 AWG zip, then 16 AWG zip, and so forth. Yet people still wring their hands over this question and worry about physically splitting the zip leads apart and then putting those speaker wires on little elevating/seperating towers and whatnot.

Hmmm...maybe I should "discover" a terrible new problem and then be generously willing to sell everyone the cure. I could even salve my conscience by replacing my Baja with a nice 42'+, triple blown-mill, 140 mph Formula offshore.... AHH... the sacrifices I could make for my fellow audiophiles...

[mtrycraft]

How is audio any different from other hobbies or marketplace? Why would audio be immune from all the bs, voodoo, hype and myth?

Let me know if you need a partner in discovering the next flaw and cure

[okiemax]

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

GEE-WHIZ, why didn't I think of that ! People can't talk to their dead relatives, and this of course proves listeners can't hear a difference between power cords. Hey skeptic, if you are reading this, there is no need for further attempts to answer my question. With a dazzling display of scientific brillance, mtrycraft has once again found a shortcut to the truth.

[woodman]

You said: "Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement." I know two things for sure. (1) You are not a clairvoyant who through telepathy knows what all listeners have and have not heard. (2)You have not conducted controlled listening tests on all those who claim to hear differences, and therefore have no evidence to support your own heroic claim. You are very emphatic in your statements, but no matter how much you jump up and down, being adamant is no substitute for offering substance.

On second thought, I'm not so sure about your psychic powers, so please don't take offense at what I have said and put a spell on me. If I can no longer hear differences in cables, I will know who to blame.

Okie m'boy:
Your persistence, stubborness, perseverance, and determination are only exceeded by your seemingly terminal gullibility - whether you're aware of that fact or not. No, I make no claims of clairvoyance to tell me about power cords, and whether or not people actually hear what they claim to hear regarding them. I have sufficient first-hand experience in audio to know that people hear all sorts of things which in the vast majority of cases are the creation of their own personal ABEs. Nor have I conducted all sorts of scientific, controlled listening tests to verify what I know to be true about the subject. This is because of my education in electronics, and of even greater importance, my hands-on working experience with consumer electronic products - most notably work on power supplies where a vast majority of servicing problems are found to be originating. I also have experience in designing power supplies for electronic products. This experience spans more than half a century! What sort of "credentials" do YOU bring to the table? Beyond hearing what you've "heard with your own ears", that is?

Whether or not there are audible differences in interconnects (analog) and speaker wires, I'm willing to concede the possibility of. However, it's my contention that any differences that DO exist with those accessory products will be so small, subtle, and in the final analysis inconsequential. It defies all sense of reason and logic that people are not only willing to spend vast sums of money on them, but are also downright EAGER to go on forums such as this one and argue endlessly about the merits of given ones, and what a "HUGE" difference they made to their system. It boggles the mind.

But power cords are a different "kettle of fish" altogether since they're simply unable to provide ANY performance enhancement to ANY electronic device or component - whether an amplifier, a receiver, a CD player, a VCR, a DAC, a DVD player, or anything else. It simply cannot happen! This is due to the function that a power cord provides in the overall scheme of things - electronically speaking.

So you think that my adamant position undermines MY credibility do you? Tsk, tsk. Methinks that you have a long way to go to prove that point. Simply claiming to hear something certainly doesn't make it so - not unless you can "prove it" through controlled listening tests. The possibility that you (or anyone else) could do so is simply impossible, so I recommend that you not even try - but if your die-hard attitude is such that you refuse to believe what I'm trying my level best to tell you ... go ahead and try - be my guest. When you fail miserably to do so, I'll expect you to post an apology. Now quit trying to mislead poor unsuspecting newbies here (or anywhere else).
Regards,

[DMK]

And many clients of John Edwards claim that Edwards indeed talked to their dead relatives. Why is that not true?
Many claim to have been abducted by aliens. Prof John Mack of Harvard supports those claims.
And the empty claims go on and on...

John Edwards probably does talk to dead relatives. I have done so myself a couple of times and I know others that have. It DOES happen.

Now, my skepticism comes in when those people claim the dead relatives talk back!

Also, I know first hand of a case of alien abduction as it happened to someone that works at my company. A bunch of Mexicans illegally entered the U.S and made off with him AND one of my company's semi trailers! It's TRUE!

Please don't make me correct you again! And since we're talking about power cords, yes they do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime! Same with interconnects and speaker wire. See? I just solved a BUNCH of arguments and I have zero technical knowledge. You guys make this stuff too hard!

[okiemax]

Okie m'boy:
Your persistence, stubborness, perseverance, and determination are only exceeded by your seemingly terminal gullibility - whether you're aware of that fact or not. No, I make no claims of clairvoyance to tell me about power cords, and whether or not people actually hear what they claim to hear regarding them. I have sufficient first-hand experience in audio to know that people hear all sorts of things which in the vast majority of cases are the creation of their own personal ABEs. Nor have I conducted all sorts of scientific, controlled listening tests to verify what I know to be true about the subject. This is because of my education in electronics, and of even greater importance, my hands-on working experience with consumer electronic products - most notably work on power supplies where a vast majority of servicing problems are found to be originating. I also have experience in designing power supplies for electronic products. This experience spans more than half a century! What sort of "credentials" do YOU bring to the table? Beyond hearing what you've "heard with your own ears", that is?

Whether or not there are audible differences in interconnects (analog) and speaker wires, I'm willing to concede the possibility of. However, it's my contention that any differences that DO exist with those accessory products will be so small, subtle, and in the final analysis inconsequential. It defies all sense of reason and logic that people are not only willing to spend vast sums of money on them, but are also downright EAGER to go on forums such as this one and argue endlessly about the merits of given ones, and what a "HUGE" difference they made to their system. It boggles the mind.

But power cords are a different "kettle of fish" altogether since they're simply unable to provide ANY performance enhancement to ANY electronic device or component - whether an amplifier, a receiver, a CD player, a VCR, a DAC, a DVD player, or anything else. It simply cannot happen! This is due to the function that a power cord provides in the overall scheme of things - electronically speaking.

So you think that my adamant position undermines MY credibility do you? Tsk, tsk. Methinks that you have a long way to go to prove that point. Simply claiming to hear something certainly doesn't make it so - not unless you can "prove it" through controlled listening tests. The possibility that you (or anyone else) could do so is simply impossible, so I recommend that you not even try - but if your die-hard attitude is such that you refuse to believe what I'm trying my level best to tell you ... go ahead and try - be my guest. When you fail miserably to do so, I'll expect you to post an apology. Now quit trying to mislead poor unsuspecting newbies here (or anywhere else).
Regards,

Well, why didn't you just tell me to begin with that you not only know everything there is to know, but already know everything that ever will be known. We could have skipped the cable nonsense and got right to you advising me about more important matters, such as what stocks to buy and whether my sweetheart will be true. Just kidding. I don't doubt your credentials or your sincerity.

What do I bring to the table? Like you, a conviction that I am right, although on a smaller scale. I am confident in my ability to determine what is audible to me. It's that simple. My ability has served me well over the years, without advice from those who claim to know what I can hear better than I do. Their advice may be well intended, but I am put off by what frequently is the " I know better, so be like me" message.

You must be joking when you accuse me of misleading newbies. Check my posts. Where do you find me trying to persuade anyone on anything? I have suggested that people use their own judgment. Do you think they shouldn't?

[Mash]

Science and Engineering at its best.....We must all agree with DMK:

1. People CAN talk to dead relatives. Skepticism may be appropriate when those people claim the dead relatives talk back!

2. Alien abduction can happen. This was proven by DMK when a bunch of Mexicans illegally entered the U.S and made off with one of his company's drivers AND his company's semi trailer!

3. Power cords do make a difference. Try firing up your stereo without one sometime! Same with interconnects and speaker wire.

[E-Stat]

And, you proved it how? By claiming a difference? How marvelous. Or did you just take a poll?

Tell me mytry, in the spirit of scientific openness, what equipment do you listen to?

rw