Is a heavy guage power cord helpful?

[Beckman]

Interesting response from someone with the Dollar store cable mentality. A test that concludes that there are no audible differences between two cables each costing in the hundreds of dollars is a diffferent story than comparing any one of those to your preference.

I believe there are many fine cables in the $200-$300 range that are roughly equivalent and audibly better than the cheapo stuff.

rw

What do you define as cheapo?
What about comparing two cables, both with the same current ratings.
Both the same length.
One costing $5 and the other costing $1200. What would the $1200 cable do to the Voltage that a $5 cable wouldn't do?

[E-Stat]

What do you define as cheapo?

In the context of discussion with mytry, $1 interconnects.

What about comparing two cables, both with the same current ratings.
Both the same length.
One costing $5 and the other costing $1200. What would the $1200 cable do to the Voltage that a $5 cable wouldn't do?

Which type of cable are you referring to in your hypothetical question (ie. power, IC, spkr) ?

rw

[RGA]

The power is the same, it is the voltages that are different. In fact a major part of power grid design involves voltage regulation. Making sure power factors and voltage levels are exceptable. You don't want the voltage level coming out of the wall to drop to 110 Vrms on Monday morning when the newspaper nextdoor turns on their presses.

True but an expensive power cord can't add back power...surely that is not the claim.

The amplifier itself regulates the power it is give...it has its own KIND of step up down device built in.

E-Stat did say something intriguing though.

A delaer here did a demo of a line conditioner doo hicky device from Monster and when he connected it to a Marantz 7300 with another measuring device it lowerd the noise of the Marantz significantly ~24db...the device was a little meter and had an amp and speaker (hand held) so you could hear the HISS better and then when he plugged it into the Monster power bar the hiss was gone.

He did the same with the Bryston but there was no hiss to start with so the Monster bar was not necessary.

SO unless a lot of these cheap recievers and aother amp you're looking at are simply so horrible for words I don't see the device as necessary...and the store could have an atrocious power set-up just to make thise device seem needed.

So unless the power cord has this device built into the cord then I don't see the point.

[E-Stat]

A delaer here did a demo of a line conditioner doo hicky device from Monster and when he connected it to a Marantz 7300 with another measuring device it lowerd the noise of the Marantz significantly ~24db...

I run my turntable through a Monster HTS-1000. I have a low output MC cartridge and while my phono preamp is fairly quiet at 78 dB, it is audibly quieter with the conditioner.

As for power cords, I run my CDP with a JPS Labs digital. It has an RF resistant insulation layer than runs the length of the cord. There are also filter networks at each plug end. Both means are used to limit the effect of both radiated and conducted RF. CD players are often a good source of RF radiation.

rw

[Beckman]

In the context of discussion with mytry, $1 interconnects.



Which type of cable are you referring to in your hypothetical question (ie. power, IC, spkr) ?

rw

$1 interconnects. I don't know if I have ever sene interconnects that cheap. I am sure they sound fine, but gosh darn. Why not spend $4-5 on interconnects and buy something from a company that at least has some quality control.

I was refering to any cable.(except video because some RCA cables that are made for audio don't work for video).

[Beckman]

[QUOTE=RGA]True but an expensive power cord can't add back power...surely that is not the claim.

The amplifier itself regulates the power it is give...it has its own KIND of step up down device built in.

QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply that power cords regulate voltage.

The amplifier doesn't regulate power, it regulates voltage. The power it uses depends on what volume it is set at, what speakers it is driving, and the type of music it is playing. Current and voltage are are only related by impedance(capacitance, inductance, resistance)

As for the whole power supply thing, I meant to imply that it is rediculous for people to spend the kind of money some of them do on power cords. They could buy a whole new DC power supply for the cost of some of the power cords used, and a new power supply might actually improve the sound quality

[E-Stat]

I was refering to any cable.(except video because some RCA cables that are made for audio don't work for video).

Well I perceive different somewhat different benefits from using better interconnects vs. better speaker cables. The short answer is the background is audibly "blacker" with less grunge to mask subtle musical harmonics and detail. I am not referring to a high end rolloff, either. I hear more of the harmonic structure of a french horn or a bassoon. More inflection with female voice. The differences are subtle, but to most folks even greater differences are of little import.

To each his own.

rw

[okiemax]

The power is the same, it is the voltages that are different. In fact a major part of power grid design involves voltage regulation. Making sure power factors and voltage levels are exceptable. You don't want the voltage level coming out of the wall to drop to 110 Vrms on Monday morning when the newspaper nextdoor turns on their presses.

Right, the power is transmitted long distances using a high voltage AC system, but the voltage is stepped down to 240 volts by a transformer near your house. Therefore, that nearby transformer is the start of the AC chain for your house. So as long as that transfomer is supplied, would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?

[E-Stat]

... would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?

When the source of the RF and interference lies largely within your house, even within other components such as CDPs a couple of feet away, the answer is yes.

rw

[Beckman]

So as long as that transfomer is supplied, would the transmission distance in "miles of wire" make a difference in the service at your house?

Yes, if it wasn't there I wouldn't have any electricity The question here is does a 3 ft. power cord really make a component sound better.

[mtrycraft]

Interesting response from someone with the Dollar store cable mentality. A test that concludes that there are no audible differences between two cables each costing in the hundreds of dollars is a diffferent story than comparing any one of those to your preference.

I believe there are many fine cables in the $200-$300 range that are roughly equivalent and audibly better than the cheapo stuff.

rw

Go ahead and test them then. No big deal. Cost is irrelevant, unless you are interested in knowing how well expensive cables do in DBT listening. Why would cost change the outcome? It doesn't and it hasn't. If they are equivalents, the outcome is in the bank. An exercise in futility. So, in the end, cost is still irrelevant.

But, for the record, Nousaine did state the price in one test, $990 cable vs cheap ones. In the bank results.Others may have as well, don't remember. The ABX web site should have that. Certainly on my citation list and since you read them, why even ask?

[mtrycraft]

The short answer is the background is audibly "blacker" with less grunge to mask subtle musical harmonics and detail. I am not referring to a high end rolloff, either. I hear more of the harmonic structure of a french horn or a bassoon. More inflection with female voice. The differences are subtle, but to most folks even greater differences are of little import. rw

Yet another testable claim. This is testable, after all. Maybe that $1 cable will not do, not up to standards. I am sure you have my post where I specified or suggested $1 interconnects, right? Or just making things up again.

[E-Stat]

Cost is irrelevant, unless you are interested in knowing how well expensive cables do in DBT listening. Why would cost change the outcome?

You are missing the point. You point to a test where equally (expensive) cables are considered equivalent and suggest that is evidence that a $1 cable would fare the same. It is not.

But, for the record, Nousaine did state the price in one test, $990 cable vs cheap ones.

I am sure that Mr. Car Stereo can find any number of "expensive" cables that may not perform much better ( in his car stereo?) than El Cheapos. Try Valhalla vs. RS on something significantly better than mid-fi stuff and let me know the results.

rw

[E-Stat]

I am sure you have my post where I specified or suggested $1 interconnects, right? Or just making things up again.

The specific $1 reference was from Chris' Alcoholics cable guidelines post initially stated by Skeptic and concurred (or sayd? as you put it) by you. I'll help jog your memory:
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeptic
When I wasted my time argueing with JR, he said that unless you had a very "high resolution" sound system whatever that means (I assume it means expensive and to his liking) you couldn't hear the benefits of improved cables. Of course if you are skeptical like I am and are waiting for the wizards to raise the curtain to show us if there is really anything behind it (besides the old man pulling levers), you don't pay much attention to these articles telling you what to spend. IN the meanwhile, $500, $5000, or $50,000 system I would still use the same 16 gage speaker wire, the same $1 RS interconnects, and the power cords that come with the equipment. Even for a $500 system, that still comes out lower cost percentage wise than the numbers in the article.


Yep, that is why I sayd that on a low cost system, the wire might be 5%. 5% of $500 is $25. Actually, that may not be enough if you have much to wire together
On a $50K system, it may be .02%
__________________
mtrycrafts

[pelly3s]

I know it's been decided by almost everyone here that the power cable doesn't make a difference. The only difference may come from cables made with filters in the connectors other than that there would be no difference. In theory you could use a 16 or 18 AWG cable. It's like when coming from an amp into a speaker, you make the run with 12 AWG to the speaker and 90% of the time you are going to end up with like 18 AWG or smaller in the speaker cabinet in that short of a run the difference is so small that noone could possibably here the difference. I work for a pro audio company and I have run a Macrotech 5000 in bridge mono at 4 ohms going to full clip and you couldn't hear the difference between two feet of 14 AWG and 20 feet of 10 AWG. So back to the power thing, it's just a high power 60Hz tone coming out of the wall so the same theory applies

[zappafreak]

First off everything I say is my opinion based on my experiance and knowledge.

Electricity is produced at power plants by synchronous generators powered by steam(usually). Next it is jacked up to a very high voltage (on the order of 30 kV depending on where you live. It travels many miles and is periodicly stepped up by autotransformers(voltage regulators) as the voltage drops due to losses from the transmission line resistance. It is stepped down several times until it has a line to line voltage of 220 Vrms. A 120 Vrms outlet in your house is line to neutral voltage. Keep in mind your wall outlet is connected to a power plant. Through all the voltage regulators, auto boosters. transformers, switching capacitor banks(reduce power factor), etc. These things can add harmonics. A perfect sinusoidal wave has only one harmonic. Harmonics refers to disortions in the wave. The voltage from your outlet can very a great deal 115V to 120 V usualy.

Now here is the kicker. With all the thousands of miles of copper and aluminum electricity has to travel through to get to your stereo a one meter power cable is suppose to make it sound better? I don't think it does. As long as the power cable you are using fits snuggle into the wall outlet and into the back of your amp and has the proper current rating it will work fine. As for harmonics, all an amp does is convert a AC to DC used to bias transistors anyway. Voltage regulators, auto boosters and other things that might cause harmonics are designed to switch in such a fashion that the harmonics are at much higher frequencies so they can be easly filtered out. Amp designers know from the undergraduate power classes they took in college that there are voltage fluctuations and harmonics and take this into account when designing their power supplies. The design of the power supply in the amp is what is important.

As for the 8 gauge cord at least you didn't pay for it

HERE IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT FROM A COMPANY THAT MAKES POWER CORDS:
"Yes, an 8 gauge cable can deliver more current than a stock 14 gauge
cable. This is basic physics that the more conductive material you have
available, the greater the capacity for power transmission. As the AC
power gets close to the current capacity of a cable the impedance
changes, thus negatively affecting sound quality. With the larger gauge
cable this problem is reduced or eliminated.

The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. This only is reason enough
to upgrade the gauge of power cables for audio components. Also, audio
components are more sensitive to the slight impedance changes or voltage
fluctuations. These changes result in audible sonic differences to your
system. You refrigerator or microwave are less sensitive to these
issues.

Technically speaking; you will not receive additional current or wattage
from the wall since you are limited by the constraints of the 15 amp
circuit. The benefit presented to the amp will be that you are not
degrading or restricting the power before it reaches the amp."
WELL, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
ZF

[okiemax]

Yes, if it wasn't there I wouldn't have any electricity The question here is does a 3 ft. power cord really make a component sound better.

I had that problem last Summer. A lot of the wire wasn't there anymore, and I was without electricity for a week. But here is my point. Whether you are a few miles or hundreds of miles away from where your power is generated doesn't seem relevant to the power cord issue. If you disagree, please explain why.

Users report mixed results with aftermarket power cords, improvements depending on specific cord/component combinations. Many users have found an improvment sufficient to justify a purchase. They might be amused if you suggested they just imagined an improvement.

Why could an aftermarket power cord would make a component sound better than the stock cord? Obviously there could be differences in the length, gauge, and composition of the wire, and in the plugs, IEC connectors, covering, and color.. Any of these might help explain better sound. No, wait a minute, the length couldn't possibly make a difference !

[okiemax]

When the source of the RF and interference lies largely within your house, even within other components such as CDPs a couple of feet away, the answer is yes.

rw

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

[woodman]

Users report mixed results with aftermarket power cords, improvements depending on specific cord/component combinations. Many users have found an improvment sufficient to justify a purchase. They might be amused if you suggested they just imagined an improvement.

Then, amused they will be ... for I'm here to tell them that they indeed DID imagine any performance enhancement. I've stated it here at this board before and I'll state it again and again and again and again and again until people wake up and smell the morning coffee.

A POWER CORD - IN AND OF ITSELF CANNOT HAVE ANY EFFECT UPON A COMPONENT'S PERFORMANCE ... PERIOD! End of story - end of conversation. Anyone who's actually educated in electronics (and has practical hands-on experience with same) will verify what I'm saying here. It's simply not within the realm of possibility.

Why could an aftermarket power cord would make a component sound better than the stock cord? Obviously there could be differences in the length, gauge, and composition of the wire, and in the plugs, IEC connectors, covering, and color.. Any of these might help explain better sound. No, wait a minute, the length couldn't possibly make a difference !

None of those things have the slightest bit of relevance ... none - nada - zero - zilch. It's nothing more than a hoax - a myth - smoke and mirrors - BS - hype!

[woodman]

HERE IS AN INTERESTING THOUGHT FROM A COMPANY THAT MAKES POWER CORDS:
"Yes, an 8 gauge cable can deliver more current than a stock 14 gauge
cable. This is basic physics that the more conductive material you have
available, the greater the capacity for power transmission. As the AC
power gets close to the current capacity of a cable the impedance
changes, thus negatively affecting sound quality. With the larger gauge
cable this problem is reduced or eliminated.

The 14 gauge cable in you wall should be a solid core romex variety.
Most stock 14 gauge power cables are stranded wire. The same gauge
stranded wire will restrict current and change impedance before the
similar gauge solid core wire would do this. This only is reason enough
to upgrade the gauge of power cables for audio components. Also, audio
components are more sensitive to the slight impedance changes or voltage
fluctuations. These changes result in audible sonic differences to your
system. You refrigerator or microwave are less sensitive to these
issues.

Technically speaking; you will not receive additional current or wattage
from the wall since you are limited by the constraints of the 15 amp
circuit. The benefit presented to the amp will be that you are not
degrading or restricting the power before it reaches the amp."
WELL, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
ZF

What about it, you ask? Well, that company is guilty of perpetrating and perpetuating a FRAUD! That entire text reveals to me that this is a company that's sorely lacking in technical knowledge - not to mention moral, ethical behavior. In other words it's all a bunch of nonsense ... bullsh*t to put it bluntly! The marketing of after-market power cords as something that will enhance the performance of any electronic device or component is the biggest ripoff in all of consumer electronics IMO. It pisses me off bigtime is what it does! It is designed to extract money from the unsuspecting and gullible under totally false pretenses. I can hardly think of anything more dishonest and despicable!

[mtrycraft]

You are missing the point. You point to a test where equally (expensive) cables are considered equivalent and suggest that is evidence that a $1 cable would fare the same. It is not.
I am sure that Mr. Car Stereo can find any number of "expensive" cables that may not perform much better ( in his car stereo?) than El Cheapos. Try Valhalla vs. RS on something significantly better than mid-fi stuff and let me know the results.

rw

Get a grip, READ the Article, DON'T speculate.

No, you missed the point. They are not equally expensive as one was $990. the other a cheapo. Other test may have used similarly priced cables. And no, it wasn't a car stereo but the 'golden ears' own golden system.

You know, you would not look so foolish and make stupid statements if you read those articles, for a change.

But, you ar also missing the point, big time, if you think price has anything to do with being superior, equivalent or inferior. Zippo, nada, nothing to do with costs. Its good old electrical parameters that matters. And, as Davis has aptly shown, the parameters don't need to be that close to not matter. Get it?

But, the day you bring some evidence to the table to discuss about cable audibility, please be sure to do so so we can discuss it, OK?
Hard to discuss anything with a wall but you take the cake.

[zappafreak]

What about it, you ask? Well, that company is guilty of perpetrating and perpetuating a FRAUD! That entire text reveals to me that this is a company that's sorely lacking in technical knowledge - not to mention moral, ethical behavior. In other words it's all a bunch of nonsense ... bullsh*t to put it bluntly! The marketing of after-market power cords as something that will enhance the performance of any electronic device or component is the biggest ripoff in all of consumer electronics IMO. It pisses me off bigtime is what it does! It is designed to extract money from the unsuspecting and gullible under totally false pretenses. I can hardly think of anything more dishonest and despicable!

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF

[woodman]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF

ZF:
You're missing the point - mostly because you've been misled by what the power cord "mfg." said in their marketing hype - err "bulletin". Of course an 8ga. wire is capable of passing more electrical current than a 14ga. wire can ... the bottom-line question must be: is this meaningful or even relevant? The answer is a big, fat NO! There is no point whatsoever in supplying more current than a given device or component actually needs. The inference that the smaller gauge power cord is LIMITING what the device receives from the wall socket, therefore impeding its ability to perform up to its potential is not only misleading ... it's flat out WRONG. If a heavier gauge power cord would make any electronic device perform better, the mfg. of said device would surely provide one for the consumer, since the cost (to them) wouldn't amount to diddly-squat.

As far as being prosecuted for this "fraud", the FTC (which is the agency responsible for policing misrepresentation) has it's hands full of what they consider more important matters to pursue. Eventually, they might get around to this one, but don't hold your breath. A "class-action" suit would certainly be possible, though. You want to instigate one?

[FLZapped]

SO, IN YOUR OPINION A 14GA. STRANDED POWER CORD CAN BRING EVERY BIT AS MUCH TO THE AMP AS AN 8GA. POWER CORD?
WHY ISN'T (OR IS THERE) ANYONE CALLING FOR LEGAL ACTION (MAYBE CLASS ACTION) TO STOP THIS NONSENSE?
ZF

Money, politics - isn't a hot enough topic......

Some of it is basically correct, such as 8 AWG will, by itself, conduct higher current than 14 AWG. However, as a power cord connected to the 14 AWG in-wall wiring, the 14 AWG wiring is the limiting factor......so it becomes difficult to build a "fraud" case when at least part of the information is correct, the rest thay could just claim as being a simple mistake in editing....

-Bruce

[E-Stat]

Get a grip, READ the Article, DON'T speculate.

I did. It is evident that you are unable to manage multiple concurrent rants, so take a breath, slow down and let's get back to some good old fashioned reading retention.

Here is my original comment:

Gee that's funny. You mean like all the DBT references you gave me ? (save the Tag McLaren one of course that does not support your viewpoint)

I remain talking about the Tag McLaren reference.

No, you missed the point. They are not equally expensive as one was $990. the other a cheapo. Other test may have used similarly priced cables. And no, it wasn't a car stereo but the 'golden ears' own golden system.

It is here that you have crossed rants and am referring to something completely different. Let's both reread the TagMcLaren claim again, shall we?

http://www.tagmclaren.com/members/news/news77.asp

TEST SET-UP

Cable test: The cables were a Nordost Solar Wind interconnect and a TAG McLaren F3-10-ANA analog interconnect. Just look at their names and you can see who is really in the business of selling cable!

Both the cables under test were connected between the dual outputs of a TAG McLaren DPA32R pre-amplifier and the analogue inputs of a second DPA32R so that each one could be selected very rapidly. The source for the test was a CD recording of “Sad Old Red” by “Simply Red” played on a DVD32R, which was connected using S/PDIF and T2L sync connection to the first DPA32R. The outputs of the second DPA32R were connected to a pair of 250MR monobloc power amplifiers driving a pair of F1-RLA loudspeakers. All the audio cabling with the exception of the Nordost cable under test was TAG McLaren F3-10 series.

This is an example of what I consider a well documented test because it supplies information as to the system used and the content. We can set aside the fact that they piggybacked two preamps, doubled the number of cables and contacts and ran the signal through a switch box for now. Similarly, I doubt that a Simply Red recording is likely going to be representative of the best available, but at least they revealed what they used. So, what exactly were the cable contestants? Let's read aloud together what they are:

N-O-R-D-O-S-T--S-O-L-A-R--W-I-N-D----AND---T-A-G-M-C-L-A-R-E-N--F-3-A-N-A---A-N-A-L-O-G

Are you keeping up OK?. So what do the Nordost Solar Wind and the TagMcLaren F3-ANA analog cables cost? The answer to the second question can be found on the same website. Follow this link to their direct shopping link for the cable and enter (2) cables at say 1.0 meter (they price by each)

http://www.tagmclaren.com/shopping/i...ype=an-rca-rca

The result is £ 193.95. Today's conversion from the British pound and the dollar is around 1.9 so in dollars the cost of the TagMcLaren analog cables is $ 368.50. Are you still with me? Next question is how much do the Nordost Solar Winds cost in the same length? Here is one Nordost dealer who posts his prices on the web:

http://www.fatwyre.com/intercon_b2_04.html

Scroll down and find the Nordost Solar Wind. They sell a one meter pair for $110.00.
__________________________________________________ _________________________
Ok, let's review what we've learned, shall we?

Neither cable costs as much as $990 nor as little as $1.00. Both would be considered overkill by your keen senses. This test proves what it proves. Remember this comment of yours?

Actually, they all support my view. You just cannot understand it.

Unless you are now endorsing $100+ Nordost cables, your statement is not supported by the facts.

Is there any part of that you are unable to follow? I sure hope not. Sheesh!

Now, onto your next rant. There were four references in your original list with Mr. Car Stereo, none of which had a link to the text. I will be happy to comment on whichever one your second rant refers to if you will be so kind as to provide the text.

rw