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  1. #51
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    It might be more accurate to say that it allows the two subsystems to maintain their exact relationship once adjusted which in this case is very critical. The amount of reverberation that is added or actually generated compared to other systems which only try to capture what is in a recording is substantial. With 16 indirect firing surround speakers, the location of the source of the reverberant field is practically undetectable from almost anywhere in the room, yet the reverberant field is a true vector field, not a scalar field like most other systems. When properly adjusted, the effect is to say the least unique. With the enormous number of variables that can be adjusted, trying to improve this system by changing wires even if that were possible would be the joke of jokes.

  2. #52
    Music Junkie E-Stat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    It might be more accurate to say that it allows the two subsystems to maintain their exact relationship once adjusted which in this case is very critical... With the enormous number of variables that can be adjusted, trying to improve this system by changing wires even if that were possible would be the joke of jokes.
    I see - it facilitates level matching of the primary two channel system vs. the complex surround arrangement.

    Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of piggy-backing gain stages due to the inevitable loss of resolution. I take the opposite approach when using my CDP. I use stepped attenuators between the CDP and amplifiers, eliminating the otherwise superfluous gain stage of my preamp (used solely for phono source). With my system, the result is noticeably better resolution, wider soundstage, and better micro dynamics.

    rw

  3. #53
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    My experience is that most good preamplifiers sound pretty much the same and distortion is so low that cascading several of them makes no audible difference as long as none of them or overloaded or driven beyond their rated voltage output. Whatever minor differences there are in fequency response are cancelled out by the equalizers anyway.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    In my time on these boards and reading the points of view of various people, I would suggest that no proof would be acceptable to counter the beliefs of those select few.

    Even if Albert Einstein came back from the grave and did another PhD specifically on audio cables and found the whole high end industry was a farce, I believe the response of the select few would be: "Yeah, but what kind of system does he own?"

    And I honestly say this not cynically, but rather because I believe it is the God's honest truth.

    It's sort of like convincing your grandma that she is wrong about some old wive's tale she has believed all her life. Sometimes it's better just to let her go on believing it.
    Is that the "select few" that your fellows-in-arms repeated claim are throwing "millions of dollars" down the drain on cables? Have you ever noticed that almost weekly new cable companies emerge and that the existing ones seldom go out of business?

    You simply can't get beyond your pre-conceived notion that purchases of audio cables are based on "belief". What about the placebo effect you often talk about? You can't have it both ways. So which is it? Do the majority of cable buyers buy because of their "beliefs" or because of the "perceptions" they derive from trying different cables (be they derived from placebo or from actual audible differences)?

  5. #55
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You simply can't get beyond your pre-conceived notion that purchases of audio cables are based on "belief".
    Correctamundo.

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    What about the placebo effect you often talk about?
    What about it? That has not yet been proven either. It is simply a possible explanation for people perceiving differences when there are none. It's just hypothesis.

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Do the majority of cable buyers buy because of their "beliefs" or because of the "perceptions" they derive from trying different cables (be they derived from placebo or from actual audible differences)?
    I suppose it is a combination of both. Some buy based on the reports of others while some buy based on their perceptions from in home testing and listening.

    While I realize my post may be inflammatory towards those that "believe" or "perceive" cable differences, I am merely pointing out that these are the only reasons. Scientific evidence and proper DBT testing results are absent so that is all that is left.

    I personally do not "believe" nor "perceive" any of the differences that are so often reported. I hope that doesn't make a me a bad person although I am often painted that way.
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  6. #56
    Forum Regular Mwalsdor_cscc_edu's Avatar
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    Amen Brother

    I take the opposite approach when using my CDP. I use stepped attenuators between the CDP and amplifiers, eliminating the otherwise superfluous gain stage of my preamp (used solely for phono source). With my system, the result is noticeably better resolution, wider soundstage, and better micro dynamics.
    If people want to put more crap between them and they're music, go right ahead. In my 29 years in audio I learned one truth, neutrality is the goal, just don't lose the passion or you'll become numb. Simplify... yes, but simple, no.

    MikE

  7. #57
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    So which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    You simply can't get beyond your pre-conceived notion that purchases of audio cables are based on "belief". What about the placebo effect you often talk about? You can't have it both ways. So which is it?
    So Phil what do you attibute it to? It can't be specifications, most manufacturers of cables don't publish them. It can't be objective independent test reports verifying or describing their electrical properties. Those are also rarely available. And even if they were, you'd have to be an electrical engineer with knowledge of network design and analysis to use the cable, speaker, and amplifier data to analyze the combination and predict whether there was even a chance for an improvement.

    So they go by what they hear, or think they hear, or by someone's recommendation. What if you chose drugs that way? You have a cough and someone else who had a cough said take this it made my cough go away. Or you remember that the last time you had a cough that same medicine worked. But this is a different time and what worked well on an irritated throat won't do much for pneumonia. So even if it could be demonstrated that a cable improved one sound system, what reason is there to believe that it will improve another unless you understood exactly how and why it worked once and what your new situation means in terms of cable performance. That's why some of us call it snake oil. Those remedies used to be sold exactly the same way. Then the Federal government stepped in and put a stop to it. Someday, they may do the same for cable merchants. And for exactly the same reason.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    So Phil what do you attibute it to? It can't be specifications, most manufacturers of cables don't publish them. It can't be objective independent test reports verifying or describing their electrical properties.
    While not Phil, here are my ramblings on the topic.

    I certainly don't have an answer. The folks who were completely underwhelmed by the distinctly poor performance of the earliest solid state amplifiers didn't have an answer either. All of the measurements conspired against such a heretical response. Thirty years later, however, we now know far more about the nature of the distortions they perceived. They were right after all. Measurements got smarter. There was LOTS of backpeddling in the objective camp. I hold the Crown IC-150 preamp as exhibit "A" as to how someone could produce a product that was at once capable of wonderful measurements and yet utterly dreadful sounding. May the LM301A chip rest in peace. Please! The results of this iconoclastic behavior? Product got better.

    The folks who were completely underwhelmed by the distinctly poor performance of the first of the CD players didn't have an answer either. Again, nearly twenty years following the introduction of "perfect sound forever", we have greatly improved redbook performance and not one, but two new standards that engineers designed to elevate the performance of "perfect". The pioneers of the earliest CD players who claimed musical nirvana were either indiscriminate listeners or liars. Take your pick.

    Denial has been the repetitive pattern for those who are solely measurements oriented where the numbers of the day apparently don't support the "subjective" observations of those who are musically inclined . I am convinced that history will repeat itself. Again.

    rw

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    My experience is that most good preamplifiers sound pretty much the same...
    Just curious here. Have you heard any better preamps than your Cit 11 or 3300?

    rw

  10. #60
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    Denial has been the repetitive pattern for those who are solely measurements oriented where the numbers of the day apparently don't support the "subjective" observations of those who are musically inclined . I am convinced that history will repeat itself. Again.

    rw
    Do you only apply your denial/history repeat theory to cables? What about green markers? Frozen CDs? Pennies on the speaker?

    Or perhaps everything today that cannot be disproven scientifically will magically appear obvious in the future along with the second shooter on the grassy knoll.

    Sorry bud, but you do not have an arguement, you are fantasizing. You can't use logic, reason, measurements, evidence or anything else that construes a valid arguement. You can only fantasize. I heard something therefore I wish it was because of my fancy cables.

    Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying you are incorrect about cable sonics. But as of this moment in time, it is still a wish, a hope, a yearning but it is definitely not a sure thing.

    You have to admit that fact. You really have to because all you have is a theory, just like me. I admit it, can you?
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  11. #61
    Suspended markw's Avatar
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    While nobody can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Monstor doesn't exist, I would have no problem letting my grandkids swim in Loch Ness.

  12. #62
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    I am convinced that history will repeat itself. Again.

    rw
    Now that I think of it, you presented some examples of people being wrong in audio before. I believe these examples focussed on objectivists, if I may call them that. Well, a more balanced arguement would have also included examples of subjectivists claiming some sonic improvement but also being proven wrong. And as a matter of fact, this is much harder to accomplish.

    Hey, how about those crop circles? People would still be believing that they were made by aliens if it hadn't been exposed how they were done by a couple of guys. And why did people before adhere to the alien slant you ask? Because it is a really good fantasy, aliens swooping down in the middle of the night a carving up farmer John's cornfield. It just has a really cool allure. And the sad part is, some people still believe it's the aliens doing it!

    So, I too am convinced history will repeat itself. Again and again.
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  13. #63
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-Stat
    While there is a rating system, it like THD measurements is largely useless.

    rw

    This discussion isn't about THD and isn't applicable.

    -Bruce

  14. #64
    Forum Regular FLZapped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mwalsdor_cscc_edu
    If people want to put more crap between them and they're music, go right ahead. In my 29 years in audio I learned one truth, neutrality is the goal, just don't lose the passion or you'll become numb. Simplify... yes, but simple, no.

    MikE

    Neutrality? Where are you going to get that?. No recording in a studio is going to sound like a live concert..... so it's gone right from the get-go.....I know, I know, you meant your equipment

    -Bruce

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Do you only apply your denial/history repeat theory to cables? What about green markers? Frozen CDs? Pennies on the speaker?
    There are many claims out on the fringe not consistently accepted by high end audio reviewers, listeners, and manufacturers. Those particular examples are outside my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    You have to admit that fact. You really have to because all you have is a theory, just like me. I admit it, can you?
    I would readily agree that there is no scientifically accepted acknowledgement of what a large number of perceptive music listeners hear. My contention is that we are seeing deja vu all over again.

    rw

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLZapped
    This discussion isn't about THD and isn't applicable.

    -Bruce
    Despite good intentions, I find poor metrics of product performance to be worse than useless. They convey a false sense of value to those who don't understand the underlying limitations. That holds true for tires as well as audio components.

    rw

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    ... Well, a more balanced arguement would have also included examples of subjectivists claiming some sonic improvement but also being proven wrong.
    That is a fair assessment. Perhaps you might provide examples for the counterpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    Hey, how about those crop circles? People would still be believing that they were made by aliens if it hadn't been exposed how they were done by a couple of guys.
    I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but this is not a good analogy. I do remember the story of how some guys with simple tools created the complex and symmetric patterns at night. The difference is that I don't recall anyone claiming to have witnessed the alleged alien activity. Instead, there was rampant speculation as to the cause.
    Unlike the "must-have-been-created-by-alien" speculists, the position of countless music lovers is by direct experience. While there are those (hello mtrycraft) who would dismiss such assessments because they are not conducted in a DBT environment, the perception is pervasive. I had never before heard the "skin" of a tympani being struck before improving several aspects of my system, including cables.

    rw

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    So Phil what do you attibute it to? It can't be specifications, most manufacturers of cables don't publish them. It can't be objective independent test reports verifying or describing their electrical properties. Those are also rarely available. And even if they were, you'd have to be an electrical engineer with knowledge of network design and analysis to use the cable, speaker, and amplifier data to analyze the combination and predict whether there was even a chance for an improvement.

    So they go by what they hear, or think they hear, or by someone's recommendation. What if you chose drugs that way? You have a cough and someone else who had a cough said take this it made my cough go away. Or you remember that the last time you had a cough that same medicine worked. But this is a different time and what worked well on an irritated throat won't do much for pneumonia. So even if it could be demonstrated that a cable improved one sound system, what reason is there to believe that it will improve another unless you understood exactly how and why it worked once and what your new situation means in terms of cable performance. That's why some of us call it snake oil. Those remedies used to be sold exactly the same way. Then the Federal government stepped in and put a stop to it. Someday, they may do the same for cable merchants. And for exactly the same reason.
    I don't think I disagree with you. I suppose people have different reasons why they buy expensive cables, but I assume you and I could both agree that one reason is not that there is valid scientific evidence to support a conclusion that an expensive cable is any better sonically than a stock cable. I certainly agree that anyone who buys cables because of what they read in and add or an audio magazine review, or what someone else says, is falling prey to snake oil. Of course, those can be pervasive effects and I would never try to deny that my own personal "perceptions" may be largely the product of those influences. As best I can analyze my own personal decisions, I have been unable to draw any connection with add copy, reviews or opinions of others, but I have no way of determining what subconscious forces affect the personal expereinces I have with cables.

    My main beef with MM is on a fairly narrow issue. I believe that a lot of people (me included) buy after-market cables because we "perceive" improvement and are willing to pay for that "perceived" improvement. I don't go beyond that. My only beliefs with respect to cables are (1) there is no scientific proof to support my selections of cables, and (2) based on my experience, they add to my enjoyment. The increased enjoyment may very well be due to ABEs, but personally I don't care. On the other hand, I would never want another person to base a purchasing decision in any part on what I do, as it is indicative of nothing other than the fact that I'm willing to pay for cables that I have not subjected to DBTs and have no scientific basis on which I can justify my cable purchases.

    I do take issue with someone who attempts to liken me to a believer in alien abductions, whether or not such belief is based on wild unscientific speculation or a "perception" that he was actually abducted. In my case I guess one could say that I believe the cables I own improve my enjoyment. But that doesn't mean I believe that cables actually can sound different. I just don't know and it doesn't matter when it comes to my personal purchasing decisions. Unlike the the abduction-believers I don't go around trying to convince others than cables really make a difference, nor have I reached any conclusions on the intellectual level other that to acknowledge no valid scientific proof exists.

    Again, my disagreement with MM is on a very narrow issue and relates to his seeming insistence that "belief" rather than "perception" or "experience" (regardless that perception or experience be solely the result of ABEs or otherwise) is the main driving motivation for many who buy after-market cables. I sometimes wonder if MM is incapable of removing his engineering cap for even a moment to acknowledge that not everyone makes every decision in life based on scientific certainty. Some of us are hedonists for whom personal choice is much more a question of what improves our enjoyment of life rather than what is correct from a strict scientific viewpoint.

    Sorry for the long diatribe. I know you have little tolerance for verbosity.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    On the other hand, I would never want another person to base a purchasing decision in any part on what I do, as it is indicative of nothing other than the fact that I'm willing to pay for cables that I have not subjected to DBTs and have no scientific basis on which I can justify my cable purchases.
    If you think about it, you will feel sorry for people you unknowingly influence. You are fortunate. You have substantial financial resources and can afford to spend money on things you like for purely emotional reasons even if they don't perform their stated function any better than far cheaper alternatives. But people who speak with you, visit your home, and who are looking for guidance on how to spend their own limited resources on stereo equipment because it is their first system or a long awaited major upgrade will see your expensive cables and take that as an endorsement falling much easier victim to pushy audio salesmen and wasting their limited funds on products that give them nothing of value to them in return. It's something to be on guard against.

  20. #70
    Forum Regular Monstrous Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    I do take issue with someone who attempts to liken me to a believer in alien abductions, whether or not such belief is based on wild unscientific speculation or a "perception" that he was actually abducted. In my case I guess one could say that I believe the cables I own improve my enjoyment. But that doesn't mean I believe that cables actually can sound different. I just don't know and it doesn't matter when it comes to my personal purchasing decisions. Unlike the the abduction-believers I don't go around trying to convince others than cables really make a difference, nor have I reached any conclusions on the intellectual level other that to acknowledge no valid scientific proof exists.
    Just for the record, I do not classify you in the same category as alien abductees. Besides, it is not that I don't believe the story or experience of an alien abductee, I simply do not believe whatever that person actually experienced was the result of aliens but was rather the result of something terrestrial like a dream or traumatic experience. I do not deny perceptions, I question conclusions about the cause of the perceptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by pctower
    Again, my disagreement with MM is on a very narrow issue and relates to his seeming insistence that "belief" rather than "perception" or "experience" (regardless that perception or experience be solely the result of ABEs or otherwise) is the main driving motivation for many who buy after-market cables. I sometimes wonder if MM is incapable of removing his engineering cap for even a moment to acknowledge that not everyone makes every decision in life based on scientific certainty. Some of us are hedonists for whom personal choice is much more a question of what improves our enjoyment of life rather than what is correct from a strict scientific viewpoint.
    This may surprise you, but I make many decisions based on others experiences rather than scientific proof or evidence. However, I do take into account such things as cost or personal safety. As a recent example, I bought deer whistles for my car since we live in an area populated by many deer and collisions are a real danger. These whistles have no scientific foundation yet at a cost of $5 a pair, I am willing to give them a try. I have even noticed that now deer usually look towards my car when I am approaching them and this gives my a very non-scientific conclusion that they may be effective in some small manner. Interestingly, I would think that dogs would also notice these ultrasonic whistles but I have to conclude anything about that.

    My main beef is not with you but with people like Jon Risch or any average Joe who trumpets ad copy from cable companies, psuedo-scientific analysis or simple, sighted home listening anecdotes as proof of cable sonics.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monstrous Mike
    My main beef is not with you but with people like Jon Risch or any average Joe who trumpets ad copy from cable companies, psuedo-scientific analysis or simple, sighted home listening anecdotes as proof of cable sonics.
    Me too.

    See: http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/gen...es/303926.html

  22. #72
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    Cool

    I use Mogami Cables that I got from http://www.hookupvideo.com and that is all I ever use anymore. I use to use Monster and AudioQuest but they where over priced and do not perform as good audio and video like Mogami. I'm not sure if it 's because they are made in Japan or not using excellent Japanese ingenuity. However this is the prime cable brand of over 90% of audio and video recording studios use around the world. The prices are extremely cheap for pro version interconnects.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    If you think about it, you will feel sorry for people you unknowingly influence. You are fortunate. You have substantial financial resources and can afford to spend money on things you like for purely emotional reasons even if they don't perform their stated function any better than far cheaper alternatives. But people who speak with you, visit your home, and who are looking for guidance on how to spend their own limited resources on stereo equipment because it is their first system or a long awaited major upgrade will see your expensive cables and take that as an endorsement falling much easier victim to pushy audio salesmen and wasting their limited funds on products that give them nothing of value to them in return. It's something to be on guard against.
    I'm glad you're so sure of my "substantial financial resources". Me - I wish I could locate some of those resources.

    As for people I influence, I don't recall anyone in the last 5 years visiting my home (other than Richard Vandersteen, who was here to adjust my Fives) who even knew I had anything special for cables, or who cared. Nor do I ever encourage anyone to do anything other than try cables or equipment for themselves.

    However, I have no intention of moderating my personal buying choices because of how it might influence someone else who might be stupid enough to make their own personal choices by reference in any way to what I do, just as I'm sure you have no intention of selling your house that is probably larger than the homes of 99% of the people in the this country just so you won't influence others to live in large homes that consume far more than your fair share of power and used up far more than your fair share of the earth's resources in building it, not to mention costing a fortune and which could lead others to go broke trying to keep up with you, not to mention serving as the source of extreme envy by those less fortunate, thus seriously aggravating civil unrest and class envy in this country.

    In other words, GIVE ME A F***ING BREAK. Of all the comments that have ever been made by people who choose not to use after-market cables, your post absolutely takes the cake.

    PS. I need no lecture from you as to what does and doesn't constitute responsible advice to others regarding audio.

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