Doesn't anybody get burned out arguing about wires sometimes?

[Tony_Montana]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

[cam]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

And some people like to type alot.

[jackz4000]

I agree with that. Can't really believe the ruckus over cables, but people do have their views. Some are in need of a pulpit to preach their sermons from. It's got a certain humor...all the fuss about cables. I bet if everyone peers into their amps and speakers, the wire they will see....will not be any $20 per ft wire. Perhaps all that wire should also be replaced with high end cable? Its a nice little project. Afterall, continuity of the signal from source to amp to speaker should improve and many will attest that they "hear" the difference. Did I see a "yeti" this afternoon?

I would think, methinks that the quality of the amp and the speakers and the overall room acoustic signature will have much more to do with the sound spectrum than...cables. Perhaps, I am incorrect?

[Rockwell]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

I have, and left for a year.

As much as the regular posters argue and will never change sides(baring some revelation), there are many lurkers and newbies who are influenced by one side or the other. Objectivists really have nothing to gain from playing the skeptic, other than educating and hopefully taking a few sales away from what is becoming an increasingly fraudulent industry.

[jackz4000]

Yes. Some poor person could read some of the preaching and believe they need to go out and buy some "Super Duper Cable". The preachers on here preaching, "...the highs were so silky and the midrange presented better definition, and the bass was so tight with my "Supra dupras" cables. " The poor reader who trusted in that crap sits there and tries to convince himself that this cable, he just spent a wad on, is endowing his system with a whole new sound. Allejuah! And of course, its just a little fraud. Probably good that those with their "special hearing abilities" espouing these cables get...a little reality check.

[mtrycraft]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

Rock said it well. It is for the new posters benefit, although pctower is a good example of where he is today from where he was on day one. It is for him to make choices based on the information presented.

[skeptic]

"Objectivists really have nothing to gain from playing the skeptic, other than educating and hopefully taking a few sales away from what is becoming an increasingly fraudulent industry."

I came here a few years ago hoping to hear some valid arguements and find evidence on both sides having found none at CA. Unfortunately, so far, I have not seen or heard any convincing evidence on the pro side although the culture here seems to be more tolerant of the anti side. I'm still waiting. Being a "skeptic" doesn't mean I CAN'T be convinced. It just mean that so far I haven't and I'm not going to just sit back and be snowed.

However, in the intervening time, I have found that there are rational people out there who might be provoked to rethink points of view that they've adopted a long time ago and now at least question to the degree that they aren't so sure any more because they no longer take on faith the simple arguements and advertising of people who have an emotional or financial stake in them. And at least a few people seem to have reconsidered not just what they believe but how and why they do and even if they don't change their minds, at least to put the value of what they believe into a more realistic perspective. There is some satisfaction in that.

[E-Stat]

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

Two reasons:

1. For those who seek a more musical system, all they need do is try for themselves. All of my cable purchases have been on a 30 day trial money back offer. No improvee, no buyee. Honesty works.

2. Maybe sometime the "experience free" set will actually have opportunity to hear systems for which the differences are found to be meaningful. I am very much looking forward to hearing one particularly spectacular system in Seacliff again next weekend. I find theory in any endeavor only useful as a starting point.

Car performance (especially at the low end) is continuing to improve despite over a century of development. Performance measurements are woefully inadequate to fully describe the driving experience. Unlike here, the automotive press does not rest it's case on the essentially useless metrics or basing the performance envelope on Hyundais.

rw

[Bill L]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

Because sometimes we're so bored that it's actually a fun thing. Or we like a challenge. Or we have an internet addiction. Or we hope that last rat-bastard responds so we can pour some vengeful whoop-ass on him. You know. Fun.

[Rikki]

Well, I'm new to the forum and have just started hearing all the arguments. It is kind of like discussing religion or politics. Everyone has a strong view and knows THEY are right, but no one can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing it though.

What does 2 + 2 = ?

Math teacher says: "4"
Engineer says; "4.000000000 to the nearest one millionth"
CPA says **closes the blinds in his office and looks around to make sure no one is looking** "What do you want it to be ?

[mtrycraft]

Well, I'm new to the forum and have just started hearing all the arguments. It is kind of like discussing religion or politics. Everyone has a strong view and knows THEY are right, but no one can really prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That doesn't mean we should stop discussing it though.

What does 2 + 2 = ?

Math teacher says: "4"
Engineer says; "4.000000000 to the nearest one millionth"
CPA says **closes the blinds in his office and looks around to make sure no one is looking** "What do you want it to be ?

Well, things in audio can be tested. Not so in religion or in politics. Statistics at the 95% confidence level is used

[pctower]

Yes. Some poor person could read some of the preaching and believe they need to go out and buy some "Super Duper Cable". The preachers on here preaching, "...the highs were so silky and the midrange presented better definition, and the bass was so tight with my "Supra dupras" cables. " The poor reader who trusted in that crap sits there and tries to convince himself that this cable, he just spent a wad on, is endowing his system with a whole new sound. Allejuah! And of course, its just a little fraud. Probably good that those with their "special hearing abilities" espouing these cables get...a little reality check.

Somewhere, some place out there in audiophileland, there may be such a "poor person" or such a "poor reader" (wasn't sure if that meant he couldn't read very well, spent so much on books to read that he is now poor, or is just some lame, sorry soul in need of rescuing) . However, anyone interested enough to get to the internet to discuss audio subjects should be able to try cables on loan or with return privilege and decide for himself what they do or don't do to improve his enjoyment of his system.

I can't believe how some people delude themselves into believing that they are somehow "saving" the "less informed" or the "less intelligent" among us from our own foolishness.

I personally think it is the height of arrogance and foolishness for any of us to believe that anyone out there is taking anything we say seriously or is in any way changing their behavior based on what we say. If if there is some such "poor person" who is swayed by what any of us says, he needs much more help than he'll ever get on the internet.

Now, if someone is really interested in making up his own mind, there's plenty to learn here. I suspect most who spend anytime here do learn, but they won't necessarily come to the obviously opinionated position you have reached. And I doubt many of them, if any, feel they need you or anyone one else to save them from themselves or rescue them from their having "trusted that crap". Most audiophiles I have know are highly intellegent people, many of whom have spent what you might considered a "wad" on cables. They don't sit around trying to "convince" themselves that they have just achieved a "whole new sound". Instead, most are accomplished, self-confident people who make their decisions on what works for them and once they've made that decision they have no need to look back or attempt to play some mind game trying to convince themselves they made a good decision.

Most of the "mind games" that I believe get played are people like you, who probably have met few if any dedicated audiophiles who use after-market cables, creating the kind of fantasy scenario you set out in your post.

[pctower]

Well, things in audio can be tested. Not so in religion or in politics. Statistics at the 95% confidence level is used

Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.

There's even hope for the self-proclaimed objectivists. They've spent decades talking as if they have valid tests to support their position. So when they really do get some actual, scientific test results they'll be well prepared to discuss them. Well, they'll do OK if these tests actually produce valid null results. On the other hand....

[ksing44]

I really didn’t know anything about cables when I purchased all of my equipment. I have to admit that I was swayed by what was used at the fancy store where I purchased the equipment and by what I read on the Internet and in stereophile/audiophile magazines. It made sense to me that the link to the speakers was one of the most important parts of the equation, so I went for some fancy cables. After all, my new speakers have very large gold-plated speaker wire connections that would look ridiculous with tiny speaker wire twisted around them. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

Now I also have to admit that I keep hoping someone will tell me that my MIT Terminator II cables and interconnects were worth every penny. I wish they would tell me I really needed those cables or my stereo would stink. I wish they would say my cables just happen to be the very best cables ever made and they were a real bargain.

Well at least I got them for about 25% of the original cost, so I didn’t get ripped off too bad.

They look cool, with that huge garden hose appearance.

[jackz4000]

Firstly, not everyone who reads or posts on this board could be considered an "audiophile". Many are new to HT and have alot of questions. As am I. And, in the past a number of my questions were well answered here. Its an excellent board. If you had read my few other posts on the subject you would also read that,..."one should use the cable they want." That everyone "hears" a bit differently. That some do have more acute hearing than do others. And on some high end systems one may hear a difference in the cable used.

Having once been an audio salesman and audio buyer for a small audio chain, I am aware of the various reasons a salesman will steer a customer to higher end cables. There are "sales programs and incentives" etc for selling high. Usually a commish too. The mark-up on cables far exceeds the mark-up on hard goods. And thats just all part of the biz, no big deal. If they couldn't make money; they would have to close their doors.

I don't think that high end cables ($20 per ft) will make a significant difference on a mid-level system, as much as the quality of the components and the given room acoustics. Its fine that you are of a different opinion. Have a nice day.

[Monstrous Mike]

Instead, most are accomplished, self-confident people who make their decisions on what works for them and once they've made that decision they have no need to look back or attempt to play some mind game trying to convince themselves they made a good decision.

That only works for decisions that can't be reversed. Are telling me you never bought a car and then soured on it when it let you down over and over? (i.e. you reversed your decision and sold it and bought another one)

The message from people leaning on the nay side of the fence like me is really quite simple. And that message is that when you bring home any new audio component, insert it into your system, and attempt to assess any differences, the assessment process is fraught with pitfalls that could give erroneous results or interpretations, especially if the difference is small. Hopefully that article about Coke and Pepsi in the other thread shows this.

How this message can be interpreted as calling people liars or delusional is beyond me.

[Rikki]

Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.

I agree. There are some real numbers like number of watts a speaker can handle before failing, or frequency response, but that doesn't necessarily tell you which component is BETTER.

Example, a 12 ounce steak weighs...well 12 ounces and is 1000 calories. An average serving of chicken is also 12 ounces and is 450 calories. Based on these numbers, which meal is "better" ?

[pctower]

That only works for decisions that can't be reversed. Are telling me you never bought a car and then soured on it when it let you down over and over? (i.e. you reversed your decision and sold it and bought another one)

The message from people leaning on the nay side of the fence like me is really quite simple. And that message is that when you bring home any new audio component, insert it into your system, and attempt to assess any differences, the assessment process is fraught with pitfalls that could give erroneous results or interpretations, especially if the difference is small. Hopefully that article about Coke and Pepsi in the other thread shows this.


How this message can be interpreted as calling people liars or delusional is beyond me.

I've never bought a car with a 30 to 60 day return privilege. I did, however, buy a new Yukon yesterday and so far haven't soured on it.

I've never bought a piece of audio gear (including cables) that had a 30 to 60 day return privilege that I kept and later soured on. You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.

I was spinning some vinyl this morning and thinking (which of course is dangerous) that if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers. I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

[pctower]

It is pretty much obvious that nobody will change sides [to yea or naysayer] based on Internet arguments. Going back to the AA and AR's cable forum archives, one would find the same subjects being debated over and over again (sometimes with the same persons), with nobody giving in an inch.

So the question is what make a person keep coming back for more, knowing well in advance that result wound be a lost cause?

The answer to your question: apparently not.

[Rockwell]

I've never bought a car with a 30 to 60 day return privilege. I did, however, buy a new Yukon yesterday and so far haven't soured on it.

I've never bought a piece of audio gear (including cables) that had a 30 to 60 day return privilege that I kept and later soured on. You're stretching to find poor, ignorant, helpless victims that deperately need you to rescue them.

I was spinning some vinyl this morning and thinking (which of course is dangerous) that if I had listened to the advice that MM, mtrycrafts and other fellow "objectivists" routinely dispense I would never have achieved for myself the level of performance my system offers. I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

So, you are saying that at least some of the performance of your system comes from the wires? That is a claim that is testable by you via a bit of blind listening. You could settle that matter for yourself and we wont have any need to listen to it. Although, I sure would like to hear it.

[mtrycraft]

Example, a 12 ounce steak weighs...well 12 ounces and is 1000 calories. An average serving of chicken is also 12 ounces and is 450 calories. Based on these numbers, which meal is "better" ?

Better tasting or better for your health? Taste is very personal, health is not. chicken is better for you, less fat. Atkins was wrong.

[mtrycraft]

Please let me know as soon as this testing gets started in a professional, scientific manner. Maybe someday positions in audio won't have to be based on faith.

There's even hope for the self-proclaimed objectivists. They've spent decades talking as if they have valid tests to support their position. So when they really do get some actual, scientific test results they'll be well prepared to discuss them. Well, they'll do OK if these tests actually produce valid null results. On the other hand....

Just as soon as I lear of one published in IEEE or JAES, I will let you know. In th emeantime, that fence will give you a pain you know where

[mtrycraft]

1. For those who seek a more musical system, all they need do is try for themselves.

Yep, flawed auditioning gives flawed, unreliable results. Great advice.

Honesty works.

Yep, one has be be honest in th efirst place.

2. Maybe sometime the "experience free" set will actually have opportunity to hear systems for which the differences are found to be meaningful.


Maybe some of these self appointed 'golden ears' can demonstrate such differences in a credible manner? Or, most likely they just cannot trust only their ears and must confuse the issue with their biases.

I am very much looking forward to hearing one particularly spectacular system in Seacliff again next weekend. I find theory in any endeavor only useful as a starting point.


Unfortunately, with your protocol, you will never know one way or the other. Good luck.

[mtrycraft]

I'll even go out on a limb and make a quasi-claim. I doubt that few audiophiles (and particularly ones that usually hang out on this board) have ever heard a system that even comes close in performance to mine.

Had they, I personally can't imagine how they could be so cock-sure of themselves.

Well, you are on the safe side of the bet here. How are you going to test this? Who will haul his rig to your home to compare, DBT? Just like the cuts in taxes No way to test it.

[E-Stat]

Unfortunately, with your protocol, you will never know one way or the other. Good luck.

You don't even know what you don't know. As I was twenty four years ago before experiencing a system of that level. It took me years to really hear what I heard. There is an avalanche of new information to perceive. And I'm convinced that I still do not have full measure of what the Seacliff system can do. I'd love to have it downstairs for a couple of months. For a detail junkie like me, there is no more gratifying experience than continuing to hear deeper into virtually all recordings than I do with my $21k system. There is simply no comparision.

I no more need a better "protocol" to experience this system than MIchael Schumacher does to experience the Ferrari Scuderia F2004.

rw