Does Bi-Wiring and a subwoofer mix?

I must preface my question with that I am a relative newbie when it comes to subwoofers and cables, so my question may be obvious to some. I've read the threads here about the controversies over biwiring, but......

Am I forced to go to a single wire set up with an Audiosource PSW-100 subwoofer (posts for only a pair of non-biwired speakers) and a pair of Wharfedale Saphires with biwire posts? I've been so happy wth my biwired Wharfedales, run by a NAD 7240 receiver. Must I give this up, save for buying a different subwoofer? Or is there some speaker wire contraption that can save me?

It seems that biwire bridges are sold to convert speakers to single wire set ups, so if that's my only option, I'm open to any suggestions for resources financially reasonable but audiophile(PartsExpress?).

Thanks in advance.

not familiar with the nad,but does it have a sub out or set of pre outs on the back.If so run the sub off it.

bill

Thanks for the reply.

No, my NAD is an oldie with no subwoofer line; I will in the future run this sub off of an even older Marantz Quad receiver, so it seems I'm stuck with running the sub directly to the speakers and to the amplifier source. I've read that for music listening, as opposed to 'home theatre' listening, this is a prefered mode anyhow because of something to do with the synchronization between the speakers and sub. Is this true?

Natlus

not familiar with the term.But if you have no pre-outs it would seem your stuck with out bi-wire.You can have one or the other.You must decide which is more important to you,sub or bi-wire.

bill

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Originally Posted by musicman1999

not familiar with the term.But if you have no pre-outs it would seem your stuck with out bi-wire.You can have one or the other.You must decide which is more important to you,sub or bi-wire.

bill

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I imagined it was to be this way. But, maybe I'm stuck on stupid, this means all amp sources without subwoofer ouputs can't run a sub and a biwired speaker pair? Sounds like an invention waiting to be made....

Thanks again

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Originally Posted by natlus

I must preface my question with that I am a relative newbie when it comes to subwoofers and cables, so my question may be obvious to some. I've read the threads here about the controversies over biwiring, but......

Am I forced to go to a single wire set up with an Audiosource PSW-100 subwoofer (posts for only a pair of non-biwired speakers) and a pair of Wharfedale Saphires with biwire posts? I've been so happy wth my biwired Wharfedales, run by a NAD 7240 receiver. Must I give this up, save for buying a different subwoofer? Or is there some speaker wire contraption that can save me?

It seems that biwire bridges are sold to convert speakers to single wire set ups, so if that's my only option, I'm open to any suggestions for resources financially reasonable but audiophile(PartsExpress?).

Thanks in advance.

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...have you consulted your owners manuals?

Let me guess...you bi-wire using the NADs A/B speaker outputs and press the button or flip the switch or turn the dial so you have A+B active...you don't have to,,,

The AudioSource site is lacking in info but looking at the "specs" (so-called) at Amazon, your sub can accept either an already mono, line-level "sub-out" from your rec/amp (if you had one) OR L/R speaker-level signals and also has "speaker out" terminals.

While banana connections would be optimum, five-ways or simply locknuts can be done...spring-type terms are problematic but not impossible...

Simply connect speaker wire from the NAD to the sub's speaker level inputs and do your bi-wiring from either the sub's "speaker out" terminals, the high-level input terminals or a combination of both...you can even tap off your receiver's terminals...they are all the same (unless shelving occurs, but let's not go there just yet)...you don't need to have two sets of connectors...of course neatness counts, we don't want stray-strand shorts...it doesn't have to be one or the other...

It's not synchronization it's phasing...for which your sub would seem to have a switch...

jimHJJ(...there are no problems, only solutuions...)

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Originally Posted by natlus

I must preface my question with that I am a relative newbie when it comes to subwoofers and cables, so my question may be obvious to some. I've read the threads here about the controversies over biwiring, but......

Am I forced to go to a single wire set up with an Audiosource PSW-100 subwoofer (posts for only a pair of non-biwired speakers) and a pair of Wharfedale Saphires with biwire posts? I've been so happy wth my biwired Wharfedales, run by a NAD 7240 receiver. Must I give this up, save for buying a different subwoofer? Or is there some speaker wire contraption that can save me?

It seems that biwire bridges are sold to convert speakers to single wire set ups, so if that's my only option, I'm open to any suggestions for resources financially reasonable but audiophile(PartsExpress?).

Thanks in advance.

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Maybe I am looking at this too simply. But doesn't bi-wiring mean that you have 2 sets of wires going to each speaker? One set for mids & highs and another set for the base? Couldn't you just leave the one set for highs the way they are, and then have the set of base wires go through the sub & out to the speakers? Is there more to it than this?

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Originally Posted by GMichael

Maybe I am looking at this too simply. But doesn't bi-wiring mean that you have 2 sets of wires going to each speaker? One set for mids & highs and another set for the base? Couldn't you just leave the one set for highs the way they are, and then have the set of base wires go through the sub & out to the speakers? Is there more to it than this?

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...more or less...Problem is (and I'm guessin' here) since the poster's NAD doesn't have a single, summing sub output and he's most likely using the A speaker outs for one pair of legs and the B out for the other in the bi-wire configuration, so it gives the appearance of an either/or situation...perhaps the concept of doubling-up or piggy-backing the speaker wiring seems not yet to be a viable alternative hook-up, when it most certainly is.

We don't know how his wire is terminated, that may be a problem...

jimHJJ(...but it's only a guess...)

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Originally Posted by natlus

I must preface my question with that I am a relative newbie when it comes to subwoofers and cables, so my question may be obvious to some. I've read the threads here about the controversies over biwiring, but......

Am I forced to go to a single wire set up with an Audiosource PSW-100 subwoofer (posts for only a pair of non-biwired speakers) and a pair of Wharfedale Saphires with biwire posts? I've been so happy wth my biwired Wharfedales, run by a NAD 7240 receiver. Must I give this up, save for buying a different subwoofer? Or is there some speaker wire contraption that can save me?

It seems that biwire bridges are sold to convert speakers to single wire set ups, so if that's my only option, I'm open to any suggestions for resources financially reasonable but audiophile(PartsExpress?).

Thanks in advance.

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I have a question or two for you. Are you using internally biwired cables? Cables that hook up to your amp as a single cable and then are divided for the high and low terminals. Since you do not have a preamp/subwoofer output you will have to use speaker wire from the amp to the subwoofer high level input. If your current cable is biwired you can use that from the sub speaker output and still biwire your speakers. Are you using two seperate cables? If you are one to the sub and from the sub to the speakers. Some subs filter out the low bass from the signal going to the main speakers. If the bass is limited you may not hear as much benefit from biwiring. Hope this might help and let us know how you are doing.

More info that you ever wanted to know about bi-wiring and bi-amping can be found here

Here is a excert from the article:

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...1.13 - Bi-Wiring Facts And Myths (and More on Passive Crossovers)
Many speaker systems now cater for bi-wiring - running a separate speaker lead from the amplifier to the low and mid+high crossovers via separate terminals on the back of the enclosure. The benefits of this technique are said to be improved imaging due to the reduced interactions of the loudspeakers and their respective crossover networks, since the amplifier acts as an essentially zero impedance source for each section (the speaker cable now has no influence on crossover performance).

Some people equate bi-wiring as a cheaper method of achieving the same gains as one would with bi-amping. This is quite obviously not the case - there are gains to be had, but they are comparatively minor. This is not to say that the "minor" gains are not worth the effort, because as you will see this is not true at all.

For those who may not be sure of how bi-wiring really works, Figure 5 shows the setup. The broken line indicates where the connection would normally be made internally (i.e. inside the speaker cabinet). When bi-wiring is used, this connection is removed (usually with links on the connection panel), and a separate cable is run back to the amplifier.

This diagram also illustrates the composition of a 3-way crossover network. Low frequencies are fed to the woofer via a low-pass filter. The remaining signal is then fed through a high-pass filter to remove the bass energy. This is the mid+high component. To ensure that the midrange loudspeaker does not receive high frequencies as well (which it would otherwise proceed to mangle), a low-pass filter is used to filter out the high frequency component. Finally, to ensure that the tweeter is protected from the midrange signals, another low-pass filter is used......

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First of all thank you all for the replies. Here I was bemoaning the lack of responses to my threads in other forums, little did I know that the cables' thread was jumping.

If it's as simple as that--oy vey! No instruction manuals to speak of as all the equipment mentioned is used, I've been too cheap to get a NAD manual on ebay and the AudioSource website for downloads is perpetually "under construction".

I'm using separate monster cables for the biwiring with Dayton banana plugs on both ends, but the AudioSource sub has what I suppose is called old fashioned connects(?)-perhaps for "spades" or just bare wire. I will wire them as instructed in the previous replies and we'll see how it goes...

The sub has a variable crossover from 40hz to 160hz, and a 'phase 180' switch, which might as well be a Star Trek device to beam me...I know this may not be the correct forum, but how to use these things and integrate them with my speakers?

Natlus

The phase switch is shift the phase of the signal coming it to your source by 180 degrees. I.E. if the woofer pushes at 0 degrees, it pulls at 180 and vise versa. You should be ok with keeping it at 0.

As for the x-over, it is used to pick up where your speakers leave off in simple terms. If your speakers low x-over is said to start rolling off at x Hz, you want to set your sub pretty close to that so there is some kind of overlap. Basically your sub is picking up in the low end where your speakers can't go. The deep bass and LFE channel in DD and DTS sound tracks

Most receivers have their own varible x-over so make sure you use only one. I would disable the subs x-over if you can, and use your receivers. I know I over simplified this, but I hope it helps.

[QUOTE=Resident Loser]....perhaps the concept of doubling-up or piggy-backing the speaker wiring seems not yet to be a viable alternative hook-up, when it most certainly is.

You're correct in your assessment of my set up--but what do these terms mean? For a sec I thought it might mean taking two wires and connecting them to the same speaker post(?).

Thanks again,

Natlus

[QUOTE=natlus]

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

....perhaps the concept of doubling-up or piggy-backing the speaker wiring seems not yet to be a viable alternative hook-up, when it most certainly is.

You're correct in your assessment of my set up--but what do these terms mean? For a sec I thought it might mean taking two wires and connecting them to the same speaker post(?).

Thanks again,

Natlus

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...a thousand words...Attachment 1694

Now that we have a page for us both to be on...

jimHJJ(...any questions, feel free to ask...)

[QUOTE=Resident Loser]

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Originally Posted by natlus

...a thousand words...

Now that we have a page for us both to be on...

jimHJJ(...any questions, feel free to ask...)

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And what a picture! Very impressive. Now, as far as these two wiring scenarios, are there any advantages/disadvantages to either? Or is it dictated by space and connector limitations--now I understand the questions about connectors. How the heck do people 'tie in" all those wires in option "1"?

Looks like option #2 is for me(this is starting to feel like The Price Is Right)

Natlus

That opens up a whole nutha can of tuna fish.

[QUOTE=natlus]

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

And what a picture! Very impressive. Now, as far as these two wiring scenarios, are there any advantages/disadvantages to either? Or is it dictated by space and connector limitations--now I understand the questions about connectors. How the heck do people 'tie in" all those wires in option "1"?

Looks like option #2 is for me(this is starting to feel like The Price Is Right)

Natlus

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...so first some more questions:

You said something about Dayton banana plugs on both ends...this could be good...if...I'll assume the NADs speaker terms allow for multiple connection schemes i.e. bare wire, pins, spade tips and bananas...

Do the bananas connect to the receiver by inserting them into the rear of the connector (almost like a standard RCA-type jack)?

If so and the bananas are "stackable" (can be daisy-chained) that's great...just plug one set for the LF connections into the reciever's terminals and the second pair for the HF portion of the bi-wire into them...zip. zip...whamo! done...If the bananas don't stack all is not lost.

If when the bananas are connected, can you still back-off on the locknut?

If so, and depending on the available clearance, you may be able to also connect a bare wire, pin, spade, etc.and secure it with the speaker terminal locknut...

On to option numero two...

Wire the LF wiring as you have done all along...let's say A connectors.

Wire the sub into the other (the B) speaker terminals...take the bananas off of your HF wires (I don't think you will need or be able to use them as you currently do) and use them for the feed to the sub...this is just neatness and uniformity at the rear of the NAD, they aren't required...

From what I've been able to determine from various sources, the subs in and outs (other than line-level RCAs) are spring connectors...bare wires if the gauge will fit in the hole are the simplest thing to do...If ("...do the ifs never stop?..." he asks) the gauge is too large to fit they will need to be terminated in pins which will reduce the diameter to a suitable size...

The reason I have your LFs to the NAD and HFs to the sub is sorta' simple...when wired in this fashion, some subs only pass on to the speaker outs that portion of the frequency range they do not use...say everthing above 180Hz...sooo, if bi-wiring is aimed to reduce some supposed interplay between the high and low frequencies...yada...yada...yada...part of the job is already done.

Of course, there may be other POVs re: this, however the previous one is mine...one could make the argument to wire them with the highs coming directly from the NAD and the lows from the sub because of the region of potential bass overlap between the sub and the Warfdale's woofers...you could try it both ways if you prefer and see which is more pleasing to you...of course that's if the AudioSource indeed passes only a portion of the band and not the entire frequency enchilada...in which case, it don't matter...

Given the paucity of supporting documentation on both the NAD and the sub, I think that's about the best we can do...

It's sorta' difficult to simplify some of what the more experienced of us spew forth in our jargonese but I hope its relatively clear...

jimHJJ(...good luck...)

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Originally Posted by markw

That opens up a whole nutha can of tuna fish.

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...if his vintage NAD has pre-outs it probably also has power-ins linked with jumpers...then we''ll have to get into Y-connectors, which while they too are a viable option, I'd rather avoid based on some of my previous, purely anecdotal, experiences with them...

jimHJJ(...he can also $h!tcan the bi-wire...but I'm tryin' to be nice and helpful here...nyuk,nyuk...)

[QUOTE=Resident Loser][QUOTE=natlus]

If when the bananas are connected, can you still back-off on the locknut?

If so, and depending on the available clearance, you may be able to also connect a bare wire, pin, spade, etc.and secure it with the speaker terminal locknut...

On to option numero two...

Wire the LF wiring as you have done all along...let's say A connectors.

Wire the sub into the other (the B) speaker terminals...take the bananas off of your HF wires (I don't think you will need or be able to use them as you currently do) and use them for the feed to the sub...this is just neatness and uniformity at the rear of the NAD, they aren't required...

Ok, I feel I'm being walked through a very delicate brain surgery. One would think at this point, as the next reply goes, that I would give up on biwiring and just buy a lousy jumper/bridge connector.

Anyhow, the one strange and unexpected factor is that the terminals on my Audiosource sub provide neither holes for pins or room for banana plugs--it seems they either accomodate spades or bare wire. But I will try as directed and let y'all know how it goes. Your drawings, patience, and encouragement are much appreciated!

Natlus

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Originally Posted by Resident Loser

...if his vintage NAD has pre-outs it probably also has power-ins linked with jumpers...then we''ll have to get into Y-connectors, which while they too are a viable option, I'd rather avoid based on some of my previous, purely anecdotal, experiences with them...

jimHJJ(...he can also $h!tcan the bi-wire...but I'm tryin' to be nice and helpful here...nyuk,nyuk...)

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I've been using that exact same scenario with my system for years with no lingering unpleasant aftertaste.

markw(Two "Y" connectors, with two males and one female on each,and I'm in biddiness)